Advance tickets: delay causing return train to be missed?

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All Line Rover

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If holding two Advance tickets, one to arrive in Kings Cross at 11am and one to depart Kings Cross at 1pm, what is one entitled to, both as of right and in practice, if the 11am arrival is delayed by three hours, therefore arriving at 2pm and causing the 1pm departure to be missed?
 
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Starmill

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Oh, this has been hotly debated in the past.

Ultimately there has been no consensus. Much unkind fun of me was made when I was delayed by over 2 hours en route to Penzance and that meant I couldn't get back the same day.

In practice you can probably convince just about anyone that you have a good enough reason for not being on the booked train. Probably.
 

dzug2

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A full refund on the first ticket

The second is debatable as said above
 

Haywain

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You would be entitled to symapthy, without doubt, but it is not clear that you would actually be entitled to anything else. But I would expect that if you have suffered a 3 hour delay on the southbound journey it would have caused sufficient delays to other services to have triggered ticket restrictions being eased. If that was the case, you would likely be able to take the next available train for your return journey.
 

Bletchleyite

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You've then got the side issue that if you booked tickets with a reasonable leeway (say you needed 2 hours in London, and booked to allow for 3) but your outward train was so late that you got 10 minutes...

I guess these edge cases are ones for staff discretion to apply.
 

Baxenden Bank

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Raises the issue where some people are suggesting that return tickets should be abolished in favour of singles only (at half the price of current return fares).

Surely if 2 tickets (A to B to C) constitute a journey for delay-repay or onward travel purposes, so do 2 tickets A to B to A?

PS haven't read any of the previous, inconclusive, threads referred to!
 

najaB

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If holding two Advance tickets, one to arrive in Kings Cross at 11am and one to depart Kings Cross at 1pm, what is one entitled to, both as of right and in practice, if the 11am arrival is delayed by three hours, therefore arriving at 2pm and causing the 1pm departure to be missed?
This is the way I look at it:
  1. You have met your obligation to be at the station before the departure time of the first train.
  2. The T&Cs make it clear that you aren't allowed to stop/start short on an Advance ticket.
The combination of 1 and 2 means that you have to stay on the train until arrival at Kings Cross.
  • You haven't arrived at the station before the departure time of your second train.
  • Your late arrival was the fault of railway, not yours.
The operator of the second train may attempt to wash their hands of the matter and say your ticket isn't valid due to (a), but in my opinion (b) means that they should not be able to. Of course, if it's the same operator then they have even less wiggle room.

So I would expect them to accommodate me on their next service.
 

Starmill

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I agree, there is a strong expectation of being accomodated. I also agree with Haywain that this is not the same thing as an obligation to accommodate such a passenger, which I would prefer.
 

najaB

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I also agree with Haywain that this is not the same thing as an obligation to accommodate such a passenger, which I would prefer.
I'm not convinced yet that just such an obligation doesn't exist. As Baxenden Bank says, the TOC(s) concerned don't have any way of knowing if I had intended to leave the station at Kings Cross or not.

Seeing as I already hold a Kings Cross to 'home' ticket, and if I don't leave the station then I'm effectively making a split ticket journey and delay has occurred while travelling. Both the Advance ticket T&Cs and NRCoC make it clear that the TOC is obliged to carry me.

What is the counter-argument to that position?
 

hairyhandedfool

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I think if you just needed a quick visit to London, dropping off a document to a local building or similar, then I think there is no question the TOC should accommodate you on the next available service north, but I'm not convinced that the same situation exists if you wanted several hours in London and the inward train was late enough to prevent you doing that before the schedule departure of the return.

If the delay was enough to stop you travelling in the first place then a refund would be applicable on all unused tickets.
 

All Line Rover

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I think if you just needed a quick visit to London, dropping off a document to a local building or similar, then I think there is no question the TOC should accommodate you on the next available service north, but I'm not convinced that the same situation exists if you wanted several hours in London and the inward train was late enough to prevent you doing that before the schedule departure of the return.

Would most TOCs, in practice, agree to refund, in some form, the return ticket? In the example of dropping off a document, a refund on the return ticket would not be expected because, by being accommodated on a later return train, the purpose of the journey can still be fulfilled (assuming the passenger is permitted to return at 4pm - i.e. returning two hours after arriving, as was originally the plan - and is not expected to get the first train back after arriving in Kings Cross at 2pm).

But what about, for example, a meeting in the Kings Cross area from 11:30 to 12:30 where, because the inward train arrives late, either at 2pm or close to 12:30, the journey is rendered redundant?
 
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hairyhandedfool

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Would most TOCs, in practice, agree to refund, in some form, the return ticket?...

I don't know of any examples where it has happened, so I can't make an accurate comment on what would happen "in practice".

....In the example of dropping off a document, a refund on the return ticket would not be expected because, by being accommodated on a later return train, the purpose of the journey can still be fulfilled (assuming the passenger is permitted to return at 4pm - i.e. returning two hours after arriving, as was originally the plan - and is not expected to get the first train back after arriving in Kings Cross at 2pm)....

I use the case of dropping of a document as an example of something that could be done quickly enough to allow the next available train (or one soon after) to be taken. For that sort of thing to take two hours I'd expect a longer distance ticket or a combination of tickets to be in use and I think that starts to get messy.

....But what about, for example, a meeting in the Kings Cross area from 11:30 to 12:30 where, because the inward train arrives late, either at 2pm or close to 12:30, the journey is rendered redundant?

I don't believe there is a rule that accounts for this sort of issue, and I don't think it is a common occurrence (in the grand scheme of things), but I might expect a "goodwill gesture" to be made on a case by case basis.
 

Starmill

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I'm not convinced yet that just such an obligation doesn't exist. As Baxenden Bank says, the TOC(s) concerned don't have any way of knowing if I had intended to leave the station at Kings Cross or not.

Seeing as I already hold a Kings Cross to 'home' ticket, and if I don't leave the station then I'm effectively making a split ticket journey and delay has occurred while travelling. Both the Advance ticket T&Cs and NRCoC make it clear that the TOC is obliged to carry me.

What is the counter-argument to that position?

I'm sure there are alternative ideas but I don't wish to argue against reasonableness, particularly when there is at least some evidence for this.
 

Haywain

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Would most TOCs, in practice, agree to refund, in some form, the return ticket? In the example of dropping off a document, a refund on the return ticket would not be expected because, by being accommodated on a later return train, the purpose of the journey can still be fulfilled (assuming the passenger is permitted to return at 4pm - i.e. returning two hours after arriving, as was originally the plan - and is not expected to get the first train back after arriving in Kings Cross at 2pm).

But what about, for example, a meeting in the Kings Cross area from 11:30 to 12:30 where, because the inward train arrives late, either at 2pm or close to 12:30, the journey is rendered redundant?

I'm not sure I understand what you are getting at with your comment about refunding a ticket. If you choose not totravel you may claim a refund, but if you do travel you can claim compensation.

In your latter example, if you arrive too late for a meeting it is highly likely you will be permitted to return earlier than booked, for the reasons stated in my earlier post.
 

All Line Rover

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I am referring to a train which departs its destination on time but gets delayed en route. There is no opportunity to choose not to travel, and as a train from York (for example) might run non-stop to London, there is no opportunity to abort the journey until arriving at Kings Cross.
 

Haywain

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I am referring to a train which departs its destination on time but gets delayed en route. There is no opportunity to choose not to travel, and as a train from York (for example) might run non-stop to London, there is no opportunity to abort the journey until arriving at Kings Cross.
In which case, having travelled, you are entitled to compensation for the delay but not a refund which is only given for the non-use of a ticket. Whether you liked the delay or not, you will have travelled.
 
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