Advance tickets with seperate reservation coupons

[SS4]

It's not about being unable to cope, it's about making an honest mistake. Many people can't sort their finances, taxes or hold down jobs AFAICS anyway.

When that happens you take the consequences for your mistake and try to make things right. In this case it's paying the full open fare.

 

[4SRKT]

When that happens you take the consequences for your mistake and try to make things right. In this case it's paying the full open fare.

Yeees. I can see that. What I am trying to say is that the system could be improved to make this occurence less likely. You talk as though people travel on advances because they are mean, rather than it possibly being the only rail fares they can afford. Not everyone has the money for a full open fare lying around.

 

[Flamingo]

It remains simple, nice and modular. 14 for three people is definitely excessive though.

One ticket out per person (three)
One ticket back per person (three)
One seat reservation per person for the outward journey (three)
One seat reservation per person for the return journey (three)
One credit card receipt
One receipt confirming all parts have been dispensed

Total - 14.

All clearly labelled, saying what each one of them are.

Of course, if they were all printed on one card, then if any of the three wanted to split off for any reason on the outward or return journey, they would not then be able to.

 

[4SRKT]

Of course, if they were all printed on one card, then if any of the three wanted to split off for any reason on the outward or return journey, they would not then be able to.

Pretty unlikely on advance tickets though, unless you're advocating such behaviour....

 

[Flamingo]

Pretty unlikely on advance tickets though, unless you're advocating such behaviour....

Passengers are allowed to split up, with the payment of the required supplement, also, not all tickets with reservations are Advance tickets and require the passenger to travel on the booked train.

 

[EM2]

We know what the system is thank you, and yes, it isn't difficult, but as I suggested before, for a first time or inexperienced user it can be confusing.

I can't see how it's confusing. The first time I got a ticket with a reservation, the TVM spat out three pieces of card.
'Why do I have three pieces of card?', I said to myself, 'there must be a reason'.
So I LOOKED at the pieces of card and read what they said on them. And all became clear...

 

[4SRKT]

I can't see how it's confusing. The first time I got a ticket with a reservation, the TVM spat out three pieces of card.
'Why do I have three pieces of card?', I said to myself, 'there must be a reason'.
So I LOOKED at the pieces of card and read what they said on them. And all became clear...

<sigh> Just because you don't think it's confusing (for the record, neither do I), doesn't mean that someone else isn't confused by it. How do you know what someone you've never met can grasp the first time he's confronted with it? There's far too much judgmentalism on this forum.

 

[RPI]

I must check around 1000 tickets per day on some days and the last time I came across somebody who had thrown away the "wrong" part of their ticket was last year some time, yes it is a bit confusing when you get loads of tickets so if your not sure you just keep all of them! Usually the customers will hand you the reservation (which was thrown away in this case) as logicly it shows the most information on it!

 

[DaveNewcastle]

<sigh> Just because you don't think it's confusing (for the record, neither do I), doesn't mean that someone else isn't confused by it. How do you know what someone you've never met can grasp the first time he's confronted with it? There's far too much judgmentalism on this forum.

I'd like to add my support to this sentiment.

There are several respects in which rail travel can be confusing, bewildering and even intimidating. Surely all the moreso for the person who travels rarely by rail, the foreigner, the elderly and many others.
Receiving a large number of similar white and orange cards for a journey which is made in one booking, to one destination, confirmed in one email and charged by the one payment, is just one example of this.

It would be a strange world indeed if we all shared identical abilities and had an identical grasp of specialised matters!

As for the OP discarding many of these cards, well even HE knows his error with hindsight. We probably all know something now which seems obvious to us - but which we didn't know and got wrong once. It only becomes 'stupidity' when we don't learn after the first time our lack of knowledge gets us into trouble!

 

[exile]

Passengers are allowed to split up, with the payment of the required supplement, also, not all tickets with reservations are Advance tickets and require the passenger to travel on the booked train.

Actually, since the tickets were bought with a family railcard, we did have to travel together, and as I've mentioned before, that justifies 3 of the 14 tickets. What's the point of the card which says you've got the other 13? How would you know you hadn't got it?

 

[Ferret]

I often say to pax that I'd prefer it if all the necessary details were printed on one coupon, and it must be possible but will it ever happen? Even then, some people would still get it wrong though....

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Actually, since the tickets were bought with a family railcard, we did have to travel together, and as I've mentioned before, that justifies 3 of the 14 tickets. What's the point of the card which says you've got the other 13? How would you know you hadn't got it?

Because, I assume, that card doesn't print until the end so you know if you have actually got all your tickets, or the printer has stopped working.

 

[exile]

What about a journey from, say, Penzance to Grimsby with a change at Plymouth, London and Doncaster? (routed +AP Londn Reading)

My DB ticket had 6 sets of reservation details on it. However I have to admit it was on an "airline" style ticket. Probably expensive, but as expensive as the 10 tickets it would have taken in our system?

 

[Flamingo]

The cost of replacing all ticket machines in the country (including on-board avantex machines), changing all barriers to accept the new tickets, shredding all ticket stock and re-training all staff to use the new machines would be rather high.

Don't forget, this would include London Underground as well.

I wonder how much extra per ticket sold it would come to?

 

[4SRKT]

My DB ticket had 6 sets of reservation details on it. However I have to admit it was on an "airline" style ticket. Probably expensive, but as expensive as the 10 tickets it would have taken in our system?

If you buy over the 'phone from East Coast you get airline tickets anyway. Still one per person per direction, but at least all the reservations are on the ticket.

 

[wintonian]

I always have a ton of used tickets on me so one day whilst I was out I decided to sort through them and throw out some of the old one I didn't want to keep, however on arriving at the station to catch the train home I realised I had also just disposed of my return ticket, :-x although it was only £3.60 for a new SDS home I still managed to kick the ticket machine whilst making an expletive at it whilst it thanked me for giving it free money. :-x

Moral of this story is don't whatever you do throw away anything that looks slightly like a train ticket until you are at least back in your home town.

 

[4SRKT]

The cost of replacing all ticket machines in the country (including on-board avantex machines), changing all barriers to accept the new tickets, shredding all ticket stock and re-training all staff to use the new machines would be rather high.

Don't forget, this would include London Underground as well.

I wonder how much extra per ticket sold it would come to?

If cost is so prohibitive a factor, what happened to PORTIS? If your argument was taken to its logical end wouldn't we be using Edmundson tickets still?

 

[exile]

The cost of replacing all ticket machines in the country (including on-board avantex machines), changing all barriers to accept the new tickets, shredding all ticket stock and re-training all staff to use the new machines would be rather high.

Don't forget, this would include London Underground as well.

I wonder how much extra per ticket sold it would come to?

I'm sure I can remember getting airline style tickets a few years ago - and I think it was from a machine.....

Anyway, "ticketless", smart cards, and print-your-own, are likely to reduce the use of machine-printed tickets eventually. Sorry again to point to foreign railways but I used the print-your-own system for travel in Spain and it worked like a dream. I could have lost my tickets even when I got to Spain, could then have nipped into an internet cafe, and reprinted them. The tickets were automatically cancelled by a reader before entering the train so no chance of being re-used.

 

[4SRKT]

I'm sure I can remember getting airline style tickets a few years ago - and I think it was from a machine.....

Anyway, "ticketless", smart cards, and print-your-own, are likely to reduce the use of machine-printed tickets eventually. Sorry again to point to foreign railways but I used the print-your-own system for travel in Spain and it worked like a dream. I could have lost my tickets even when I got to Spain, could then have nipped into an internet cafe, and reprinted them. The tickets were automatically cancelled by a reader before entering the train so no chance of being re-used.

Don't apologise. I'm not one of those people who think that railways on the continent are better almost by definition, as the fashion for whingeing in this country would have it. In fact despite the chaos of privatisation I think our railways are pretty good. On the subject of ticketing (not fares structures: that's a different subject entirely) I do think we're a bit behind the times here though.

 

[Flamingo]

Fair enough, but the present system and machinery was bought with an expected life-span and cost spread over that lifespan.

I'm sure that someone is monitoring it, and working out at what point it is economic to replace them. Otherwise the posts on here would be complaining about the TOC's and ATOC wasting money scrapping machines and barriers that still had plenty of life in them.

Newer technology does exist, but the implementation of it does involve cost and training, not just someone waving a magic wand, which is what some posters seem to think is all that is involved.

 

[4SRKT]

Fair enough, but the present system and machinery was bought with an expected life-span and cost spread over that lifespan.

I'm sure that someone is monitoring it, and working out at what point it is economic to replace them. Otherwise the posts on here would be complaining about the TOC's and ATOC wasting money scrapping machines and barriers that still had plenty of life in them.

Newer technology does exist, but the implementation of it does involve cost and training, not just someone waving a magic wand, which is what some posters seem to think is all that is involved.

A fair description of the situation. Thank you.

 

[Flamingo]

A fair description of the situation. Thank you.

You're welcome

 

[exile]

Don't apologise. I'm not one of those people who think that railways on the continent are better almost by definition, as the fashion for whingeing in this country would have it. In fact despite the chaos of privatisation I think our railways are pretty good. On the subject of ticketing (not fares structures: that's a different subject entirely) I do think we're a bit behind the times here though.

The main drawback of travelling in Spain was the security (airline style on all long distance trains) but TBH they managed to get everyone on the train in 10 minutes. Oddly, security wasn't in evidence on local trains. And there seemed to be a few people getting free travel on the suburban trains!

France - TGVs are fantastic (but you have to book ahead) but local trains very poor indeed - 3-4 trains a day on some routes- and buses almost non-existent outside the main towns. Even taxis are hard to find in rural areas. RER services in Paris a bit terrifying to travel on in the evenings.

Italy - generally good, but a lot of graffiti everywhere, and beggars on the trains.

Germany - the winner, in my opinion. Frequency and speed similar to UK, integration with buses etc excellent, fares reasonable. Suburban trains and stations a bit run down in places.

 

[EM2]

<sigh> Just because you don't think it's confusing (for the record, neither do I), doesn't mean that someone else isn't confused by it. How do you know what someone you've never met can grasp the first time he's confronted with it? There's far too much judgmentalism on this forum.

But surely, if you are presented with a bundle of little cards, you'd check them, and try and work out *why* you had them, wouldn't you? Or you'd get to the station a bit earlier and ask someone what they were all for? That's what I've had plenty of customers do, the same as they ask for help with the TVMs.
And if 'someone' is confused by it, should we change the whole system to accomodate them, when we know that thousands of people manage very well with it every day.

 

[exile]

TBH my tactic now is to present the whole stack to the guard and ask him/her to find the ticket(s) to check. That runs the risk of the guard clipping the wrong ticket, which has happened before. So staff can get it wrong too.

 

[4SRKT]

But surely, if you are presented with a bundle of little cards, you'd check them, and try and work out *why* you had them, wouldn't you? Or you'd get to the station a bit earlier and ask someone what they were all for? That's what I've had plenty of customers do, the same as they ask for help with the TVMs.
And if 'someone' is confused by it, should we change the whole system to accomodate them, when we know that thousands of people manage very well with it every day.

Again you are assuming everyone thinks and acts like you. Quite where you've got this idea from is completely beyond me.

You sound as though you are professionally involved with ticketing, and if so I would expect this to be second nature to you. I am professionally involved in parcel distribution but don't roll my eyes in condescending disbelief if I meet someone who doesn't know which town is represented by the postcode district KW10. When you do something all the time it's damn near impossible to see how someone who never does it may view it.

 

[Flamingo]

TBH my tactic now is to present the whole stack to the guard and ask him/her to find the ticket(s) to check. That runs the risk of the guard clipping the wrong ticket, which has happened before. So staff can get it wrong too.

If you are genuinely confused and don't know which piece of card you need, fair enough (but at this stage I would have imagined you should be able to work it out).

If you are just doing it to be awkward :roll:, then I'd better not say any more, as the mods will remove it anyway.

However, I'm sure others will be thinking exactly what I am.

 

[exile]

If you are genuinely confused and don't know which piece of card you need, fair enough (but at this stage I would have imagined you should be able to work it out).

If you are just doing it to be awkward :roll:, then I'd better not say any more, as the mods will remove it anyway.

However, I'm sure others will be thinking exactly what I am.

Why should it be awkward for the guard to locate the correct ticket, but simple for the passenger? It is, in fact, actually quicker for the guard to do it, rather than me spread out the dozen or so tickets across the table and try to find the right one while he/she waits. They don't raise any objection, it makes it easier and quicker for them.How often have I heard "no, that's the reservation, I need to see the ticket", "no, that is the ticket, I also need to see the reservation" when the guard waits patiently for the passenger to present the right piece of card. And many guards will make some comment about how absurd it is to have to keep track of so many tickets.

Also - I've done this before - selected the right ticket - placed it on the table for the guard to check - the guard doesn't get to my part of the train and so doesn't check it - and then left the ticket on the train.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

But surely, if you are presented with a bundle of little cards, you'd check them, and try and work out *why* you had them, wouldn't you? Or you'd get to the station a bit earlier and ask someone what they were all for?

Maybe.
I would.
But as I hope my earlier response to this question made clear:- we're not all the same. We don't all have the same capacity. We don't all have the same experience. And we don't all know the same (about rail travel) as each other.

In this matter, I'm the same as you, EM2, so the argument is entirely abstract. But I can think of VERY many people who I know well who do not share our knowledge, experience (and perhaps qualifications) and attitude towards machines or towards corporate bodies or towards on-line transactions.

I have to disregard Flamingo's perfectly reasonable response evaluating the impact on the industry if a change was to be introduced; because my comments above were confined to where we are now. But I cannot disregard the evidentially abundant body of people (perhaps rare travellers on UK railways) who simply have no prior knowledge to draw on, who observe the persistent posters and other adverts promoting cheap and simple rail travel to inform them, and who experience a bewildering array of (almost) identical vouchers popping out of a machine for a single journey.

Sure, they are wrong. That's not in dispute.
But is the response to someone who is wrong to penalise them? to refer to them as stupid? to point out the history and commercial payback of the confusing matter of multiple tickets? to point out the complexities of the ticket restrictions and offers and operators?

Or is it to be understanding, sympathetic and helpful?

[Surely the only distinction to be made is that which differentiates the innocent victim of complexity from the persistent or opportunist Fare Dodger? How on earth have we confused these two travellers? Eh?]

 

[Flamingo]

Why should it be awkward for the guard to locate the correct ticket, but simple for the passenger? It is, in fact, actually quicker for the guard to do it, rather than me spread out the tickets across the table and try to find the right one.

Because if somebody hands the guard a whole hand-full of paperwork just to be bloody-minded when they know exactly which one or two is required, they are just wasting the guards time on purpose, when the guard could be attending to someone who actually NEEDS the help, and is not just being a self-important and a timewaster.