advanced tickets and breaking journey on the london underground

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imagination

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If I have an advance ticket that includes travel from King's Cross to Paddington by London Underground, would I be able to leave the underground at Piccadilly Circus to do some shopping along the way?
(there's no risk, barring something going horribly wrong, of me missing my train from Paddington as a result)

Thanks
 
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You can get out but you wont be able to get back in to the underground without buying a new ticket as the cross london transfer is only valid for 1 journey
 

yorkie

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Break of journey is not permitted on Advance tickets, as defined in NRCoC.

NRCoC said:
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a
return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for
the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in
the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However,
these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is
prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their
notices and other publications.

If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station
when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This
excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold
and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available for immediate travel that
would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that
station on the service(s) you have used.

A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground and/or
Docklands Light Railway does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at
any of the stations on these networks unless it is a Season Ticket or a Travelcard.
7

For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated
as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s
stations
after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station, or
(ii) to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably
complete your journey within one day, or
(iii) to follow any instructions given by a member of a Train Company’s staff.
For clarity, tickets that do permit a break of journey (which does not include Advance tickets) permit a break of journey at an LU station along the route but would not operate the barriers at Piccadilly Circus. Staff are instructed to let people through to exit only and the LU transfer is then considered expired and a new ticket would be required to complete the journey by LU (or could be made by other means e.g. bus, walking).
 

tony_mac

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I'm not sure that leaving early on the underground is a break of journey on your rail ticket - as you are already out of the station, and making your way to join a train at another station. I can't see any difference between travelling by underground or on foot.

Sometimes the barrier staff take some persuasion that you are allowed out, so it is best to know what the rules say.

You can ‘break your transfer journey' and leave the Underground at any intermediate station, e.g. if you travelling between Victoria and Euston you can exit at Oxford Circus. However, if you subsequently wish to continue your journey by Underground you will have to purchase another ticket.
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html
 

AndyLandy

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For the purposes of this Condition and Condition 11, you will be treated
as breaking your journey if you leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s
stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station
That's the key part. Notionally, breaking your journey is the act of leaving the station, unless it's to join a train at another station (which is precisely what you are doing when making a cross-London change)

As others have said, if you exit the tube early, you can't get back in with your existing ticket, but there's nothing to stop you buying a single to make it to your departure station. What you happen to do in that hour allocated to station interchange is of little concern of the train operators.
 

clagmonster

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They are breaking their journey if they:
"leave a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s stations after you start your journey other than:
(i) to join a train at another station"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

Reffering to Appendix A, we find that a " “Rail Service Company” means Network Rail, any person (other than a Train
Company) who operates a station and any person who hires rolling stock to a Train
Company, but does not include London Underground", so when the passenger leaves Piccadilly Circus Station they are not leaving a Rail Service Company's station (as said station is owned and managed by LU.
"“Train Company” means a company operating passenger railway services which
is required to apply these Conditions to its tickets under a condition of the
Passenger Licence granted to it by the Office of Rail Regulation. A list of these
companies can be found in Appendix C. “Train Companies” means all or more
than one of these Companies;" London Underground does not appear in Appendix C, so no break of journey occurs at Piccadilly Circus.

Therefore, it is down to the reasoning for leaving Kings Cross station. If the intention prior to leaving the station is to do some shopping on the way to Paddington, then quite clearly the passenger is "leaving a Train Company’s or Rail Service Company’s
stations after you start their journey to join a train at another station and do some shopping" (my rephrasing from NRCoC), therefore they are breaking the journey, if they decide having left Kings Cross BR station, the position is less clear.
 

bb21

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Pray Mr Island.
Where do I send the thousands - nay tens of thousands of pounds I must owe in unpaid fares, due to me illicitly breaking my journey, in just this way, over the years and not buying a new ticket.
:roll:
No need to be sarky. Just because it is against the spirit of the rules or even the letter of the rules does not mean it is enforceable.

Unfortunately if the OP runs into a member of staff at the LU gateline who is of the opinion that breaking his journey on the LU part constitutes a break of journey overall then he can be denied exit.
 

yorkie

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And are they breaking their journey?
They are, because they are going shopping! ;)

There's nothing to add that hasn't been said before, for example in this topic: break of journey on an advance.

The rules may be seen as silly by some (or many!), they may be unenforceable, but the question has been asked and the answer has been given. What the OP chooses to do is down to them.
 

clagmonster

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Would the NRCoC not require the LUL TTI to offer the excess though, which their booking office systems presumably would not allow. Is there a procudure for LUL charging an excess on a BR ticket?
 

Failed Unit

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A quick question, I know it is not legal and against the conditions of carriage, but Hypothetically if you had an AP tickets from Birmingham - Ashford, but didn't travel from Birmingham - London is there anyway you could be caught? I know the lack of a stamp on the ticket may give it away but it is very possible to get between Birmingham and London with no stamp or without putting the ticket through any Barriers.
 

island

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A quick question, I know it is not legal and against the conditions of carriage, but Hypothetically if you had an AP tickets from Birmingham - Ashford, but didn't travel from Birmingham - London is there anyway you could be caught? I know the lack of a stamp on the ticket may give it away but it is very possible to get between Birmingham and London with no stamp or without putting the ticket through any Barriers.
Very difficult to be caught. Even if your ticket was Milton Keynes C to Ashford!
 

Failed Unit

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Very difficult to be caught. Even if your ticket was Milton Keynes C to Ashford!
On my hypothetical example would expect the ticket to go through barriers at Milton Keynes, I pick New Street because the last time I went though it was just show to staff who don't mark the ticket. It may be questioned why you didn't use the barrier but I guess you can say I went through the manual gate! As for Euston - St Pancras, nothing wrong with Walking :lol:
 

bb21

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On my hypothetical example would expect the ticket to go through barriers at Milton Keynes, I pick New Street because the last time I went though it was just show to staff who don't mark the ticket. It may be questioned why you didn't use the barrier but I guess you can say I went through the manual gate! As for Euston - St Pancras, nothing wrong with Walking :lol:
Even on LU it is possible to have gone through the manual gate so a "clean" ticket is not an indication of anything.
 

Brucey

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On my hypothetical example would expect the ticket to go through barriers at Milton Keynes, I pick New Street because the last time I went though it was just show to staff who don't mark the ticket. It may be questioned why you didn't use the barrier but I guess you can say I went through the manual gate! As for Euston - St Pancras, nothing wrong with Walking :lol:
I rarely use the automatic barriers at MKC when I have luggage. Just wave my ticket at LM/private security staff at the wide gate, who always allow me through.
 

yorkie

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Would the NRCoC not require the LUL TTI to offer the excess though, which their booking office systems presumably would not allow. Is there a procudure for LUL charging an excess on a BR ticket?
You make a good point there, I have doubts that the correct excess could either be calculated or charged. Based on the training that people I know who work for LU are given on ticketing, the customer is likely to be allowed to exit the station (but, as said earlier, the ticket cannot be resumed on LU irrespective of ticket type).

A quick question, I know it is not legal and against the conditions of carriage, but Hypothetically if you had an AP tickets from Birmingham - Ashford, but didn't travel from Birmingham - London is there anyway you could be caught? I know the lack of a stamp on the ticket may give it away but it is very possible to get between Birmingham and London with no stamp or without putting the ticket through any Barriers.
I think you have almost answered your own question there but I do have doubts about this sort of question. This forum cannot be seen to be encouraging breach of the terms. Sometimes rules are unclear, sometimes they're unfair, sometimes they're unlikely to be enforceable, sometimes there is no wish by the TOCs to enforce them, but none of this should influence us into encouraging breach of T&Cs.
 

Failed Unit

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I think you have almost answered your own question there but I do have doubts about this sort of question. This forum cannot be seen to be encouraging breach of the terms. Sometimes rules are unclear, sometimes they're unfair, sometimes they're unlikely to be enforceable, sometimes there is no wish by the TOCs to enforce them, but none of this should influence us into encouraging breach of T&Cs.
Fair point - if you want to delete the posts on this topic then I understand why. Typically I do avoid posting about anomalies I find so they don't get removed.
 

LexyBoy

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I'm not sure that leaving early on the underground is a break of journey on your rail ticket - as you are already out of the station, and making your way to join a train at another station. I can't see any difference between travelling by underground or on foot.

Sometimes the barrier staff take some persuasion that you are allowed out, so it is best to know what the rules say.


http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html
I agree. It is not a break of journey as defined by the NRCOC, and is explicitly allowed in the above link.

If you wanted to be pedantic I suppose you could argue that, on exit from the Tube, doing anything other than immediately proceeding to Paddington without passing Go or collecting £200 would be a break of journey though.

 

Wath Yard

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So, from Yorkie's post:

If I change trains at Manchester Piccadilly and go to Greggs (about 20 yards from the station entrance) and am travelling on an Advance ticket I'm breaking the T&Cs?

As a smoker, if I change trains anywhere on an Advance and want a cigarette I'm breaking the law if I smoke on the station and breaking the T&Cs if I leave the station to smoke?
 

Brucey

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So, from Yorkie's post:

If I change trains at Manchester Piccadilly and go to Greggs (about 20 yards from the station entrance) and am travelling on an Advance ticket I'm breaking the T&Cs?

As a smoker, if I change trains anywhere on an Advance and want a cigarette I'm breaking the law if I smoke on the station and breaking the T&Cs if I leave the station to smoke?
Yes, technically you are breaking the T&Cs.

Many staff show discretion and let you out for a quick fag or visit to a shop whilst waiting for a connection. Bear in mind that someone different may be manning the barriers on your return and might no be so kind...
 

transportphoto

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So, from Yorkie's post:

If I change trains at Manchester Piccadilly and go to Greggs (about 20 yards from the station entrance) and am travelling on an Advance ticket I'm breaking the T&Cs?

As a smoker, if I change trains anywhere on an Advance and want a cigarette I'm breaking the law if I smoke on the station and breaking the T&Cs if I leave the station to smoke?
No, Greggs is on Network Rail property, its still part of the station at Manchester Picadilly, so are all of the shops along that road, as far as the main road AFAIAA :smile: I stand to be corrected though...

TP
 

hairyhandedfool

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....If I change trains at Manchester Piccadilly and go to Greggs (about 20 yards from the station entrance) and am travelling on an Advance ticket I'm breaking the T&Cs?....
Yes, AFAIAA you have to leave the station to go there.

....As a smoker, if I change trains anywhere on an Advance and want a cigarette I'm breaking the law if I smoke on the station and breaking the T&Cs if I leave the station to smoke?
Smoking is not permitted on the vast majority of stations.

If you walk off the station without asking a member of staff where you can smoke a cigarette or pipe, yes, you are breaking the T&Cs. If you are following the directions of a member of staff, you are not breaking your journey and hence not breaking the T&Cs.
 

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As another hypothetical - what if it was such a lovely day and you wanted to walk to Paddington (its not that far about the same time as your cross london transfer is) and not use your cross london transfer would that still be a break of journey as you have not made it wholly by train/LUL?
 

Brucey

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As another hypothetical - what if it was such a lovely day and you wanted to walk to Paddington (its not that far about the same time as your cross london transfer is) and not use your cross london transfer would that still be a break of journey as you have not made it wholly by train/LUL?
Walking would be fine, provided you go directly. See a few posts earlier where the NRCoC have been quoted.
 
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