advanced tickets and breaking journey on the london underground

[hairyhandedfool]

Provided you don't visit a shop, cafe, fast food outlet, friend, or anything else on the way between stations, you are fine to walk.

 

[Clip]

But then thats a mockery of it really.

Though again to stay on topic Ill stick with my first post.

 

[OwlMan]

A quick question, I know it is not legal and against the conditions of carriage, but Hypothetically if you had an AP tickets from Birmingham - Ashford, but didn't travel from Birmingham - London is there anyway you could be caught? I know the lack of a stamp on the ticket may give it away but it is very possible to get between Birmingham and London with no stamp or without putting the ticket through any Barriers.

How about a few questions from a RPI Which Train did you catch fom Birmingham? Did it arrive on time? How did you cross London? (Make sure you know if the train you should have caught has run to time & that you don't pick a closed Tube line)

Peter

 

[Failed Unit]

As another hypothetical - what if it was such a lovely day and you wanted to walk to Paddington (its not that far about the same time as your cross london transfer is) and not use your cross london transfer would that still be a break of journey as you have not made it wholly by train/LUL?

I think for Cross-London it is a reasonable time to be honest.

Again back to Birmingham - Ashford, there is nothing to stop you walking from Euston - Charing Cross or St Pancras. But if you take 3 hours to do it then it may be considered a break. Likewise if you are travelling from Stevenage - Putney, I don't think that according to the rules there is anything wrong with taking a train to Blackfrairs and walking the rest of it. Many people walk from Baker Street to Marylebone.

It is what is reasonable, lets say you were travelling from Cleethorpes - Liverpool and decided to change trains in Manchester and walk between Piccadilly and Victoria that is valid, but I don't know how long it would be before it is considered unreasonable.

If you have a long connection I don't think there is any problem at all with leaving the station. Lets take Market Rasen - Nottingham, You have a 50 minute wait at Lincoln, no member of staff has ever objected to me going out the station and having breakfast as long as I get the next available train.

 

[Clip]

It is what is reasonable, lets say you were travelling from Cleethorpes - Liverpool and decided to change trains in Manchester and walk between Piccadilly and Victoria that is valid, but I don't know how long it would be before it is considered unreasonable.

.

I agree its all about whats reasonable. But im guessing the OP is starting their journey purposely early to allow themselves time to go shopping as the reservation is on the leg from Padd - and there is nothing stopping them doing so. So they could even get to paddington 5 hours early and then take a bus to picc circus and back again and would this then be still a break of journey? Yes - but who would enforce it?

I reckon the staff at most inner london stations would just wave you through anyway and as long as they bought a ticket to get back to padd they would be fine.

 

[Failed Unit]

How about a few questions from a RPI Which Train did you catch fom Birmingham? Did it arrive on time? How did you cross London? (Make sure you know if the train you should have caught has run to time & that you don't pick a closed Tube line)

Peter

True, but then again I have never got asked that with an AP ticket, or even asked to show the reservation.

Example 1, Edinburgh - Brighton, the train from Edinburgh was 90 minutes late so I could have easily "broken a journey" the RPI only wanted to see I had a ticket to Brighton no other details.
Example 2, Edinburgh - Bristol, Edinburgh train was late, missed the connection to Bristol. Guard (not RPI) on the Bristol train asked why I wasn't on the booked service, I told them the Edinburgh train was late and why they didn't check the story (or at least no in front of me they may have phone the control later)

I guess if it was know that the wires were down and not trains had arrived from Birmingham that day you are bang to rights.
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I agree its all about whats reasonable. But im guessing the OP is starting their journey purposely early to allow themselves time to go shopping as the reservation is on the leg from Padd - and there is nothing stopping them doing so. So they could even get to paddington 5 hours early and then take a bus to picc circus and back again and would this then be still a break of journey? Yes - but who would enforce it?

I reckon the staff at most inner london stations would just wave you through anyway and as long as they bought a ticket to get back to padd they would be fine.

I guess as well many people take an earlier connecting train than they need to. I tend to leave a train earlier than I need to when I am connecting into an IC service. Lets say I am doing Brighton - Lincoln, I would make sure I have lots of time in case something goes wrong getting to London as missing the train to Newark can mean a very long wait! It can often result in a 1 hour gap in London which I will break my journey in a pub.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Provided you don't visit a shop, cafe, fast food outlet, friend, or anything else on the way between stations, you are fine to walk.

But why not?

Lets say train A arrives at 0900 and your next available train to your destination is at 1000. It takes 15 minutes to walk between your stations, does it matter if you have had breakfast in-between as long as you make the 1000? If you are on the 1100 I could see it as a problem but is it really a break to leave the station when you have a long gap in the connection?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Because leaving a station to join a train at another station is not a break of journey, but leaving a station to visit a shop, cafe, fast food outlet, friend or anything besides joining a train at another station is breaking your journey, by the book.

 

[Failed Unit]

Because leaving a station to join a train at another station is not a break of journey, but leaving a station to visit a shop, cafe, fast food outlet, friend or anything besides joining a train at another station is breaking your journey, by the book.

True, luckily the Break of Journey is not trying looking to keep passengers prisoner, just stop people taking the mickey. (Watch me get stopped next time I ask to leave the station when I have a long wait at Lincoln or Newark)

 

[cuccir]

But then thats a mockery of it really.

Though again to stay on topic Ill stick with my first post.

I'm not sure it's a mockery.

To me, this is akin to the transferability of train tickets. The break of journey rules are worded to stop people from abusing discounted Ts&Cs by, say, holding a business lunch for an hour in the restaurant across the road from the station while on a longer journey. At the same time, they open up scope for abuse in new ways by, say, holding a two hour business lunch in the Wetherspoons in the station.

In practice, reasonable but technically prohibited behaviour - such as picking up a bottle of water from a shop that you pass when walking between stations - is not going to be prosecuted. In the meantime, there are also a few loopholes which will exist so that other reasonable behaviour, such as buying lunch while waiting 45 minutes for a train, is not prohibited!

 

[Wath Yard]

Smoking is not permitted on the vast majority of stations.

If you walk off the station without asking a member of staff where you can smoke a cigarette or pipe, yes, you are breaking the T&Cs. If you are following the directions of a member of staff, you are not breaking your journey and hence not breaking the T&Cs.

Sorry but that is a complete nonsense (not your reply by the way). I'm an adult and I do not require permission to smoke. That rule is totally unenforceable and quite probably illegal. The railway really does think it's something special doesn't it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you agree to the terms of the ticket (by buying the ticket), I doubt it is illegal. As for it being unenforceable, I doubt we will ever really know for sure, but in most cases I suspect that is the case.

I don't think it is a case of the railway thinking it is something special, just that those circumstances aren't really considered because it has never really been an issue.

 

[MikeWh]

Sorry but that is a complete nonsense (not your reply by the way). I'm an adult and I do not require permission to smoke. That rule is totally unenforceable and quite probably illegal. The railway really does think it's something special doesn't it.

You're missing the point. It is not a break of journey to follow the instructions of a member of staff. You are not asking if you can smoke, you are asking where you can smoke. Once the member of staff has directed you to just outside the station you are following their instructions and not breaking your journey.

 

[Wath Yard]

No, I don't ask where I can smoke. Just like I don't ask where I can buy a cup of coffee or bar of chocolate whilst waiting for my connection. My decision and as long as I catch the trains on my ticket the TOCs have no say in the matter.

 

[island]

Sorry but that is a complete nonsense (not your reply by the way). I'm an adult and I do not require permission to smoke. That rule is totally unenforceable and quite probably illegal. The railway really does think it's something special doesn't it.

If you have agreed not to break your journey, then yes you do need permission to break your journey.

This discussion is getting a little daft.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

If you ask where you can smoke the member of staff will direct you outside, by following the instructions of a member of staff, you are not breaking your journey (this is useful at stations where there are ticket barriers).

If you leave station premises without asking this, you will be breaking your journey (this may cause serious problems at stations where there are ticket barriers).

It's not a case of you having to ask as such, it's just a loophole in the rules.

 

[Failed Unit]

If you agree to the terms of the ticket (by buying the ticket), I doubt it is illegal. As for it being unenforceable, I doubt we will ever really know for sure, but in most cases I suspect that is the case.

I don't think it is a case of the railway thinking it is something special, just that those circumstances aren't really considered because it has never really been an issue.

Are you allowed to leave an airport when changing flights? I know even a 6 hour connection a Heathrow wont get you far, but not sure if you are allowed. I doubt even a ba connection across London wouldn't really allow shopping time.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

What have airports got to do with trains?

 

[Failed Unit]

What have airports got to do with trains?

You stated about breaks of journeys on other modes of transport, just got me thinking is rail the only one with this clause.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Did I? Ah well, in any case, I have no idea how the airlines deal with things like that

 

[Failed Unit]

Did I? Ah well, in any case, I have no idea how the airlines deal with things like that

But as you said as well it doesnt really matter, I can't see even the most cold hearted RPI caring if you walk onto the station with a McDonalds picked on on you walk between Piccadilly and Victoria station even if they saw you do it. I suspect stopping short is a bigger problem as it loses revenue, whereas a detour into a shop doesn't (as long as it isn't a long one such as going shopping to avoid the evening peak!)

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I would be interested to know if ever this question, while travelling on Advance tickets, of the Break of Journey occurring wholly within the London Underground has ever been tested.

The NRCoC which Yorkie quoted in post #3 is quite clear "A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground . . . does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at any of the stations on these networks unless . . . "

But as clagmonster noted in post #9, the Appendix A to the NRCoC does not include London Underground as an Operator (and we know from other tests that LU cannot be invoked as a rail Operator when delays occur in a passenger's booked journey with Advance tickets and who experiences a delay on the LU leg of their journey if that leg is paid for as a separate ticket).

ATOC may feel confident that they may restrict their members' passengers rights while traveling across London on an Advance Ticket, but I am far from persuaded that LU has the reciprocal jurisdiction to void an Advance ticket on NR travel when the passenger alights at their intermediate LU station (irrespective of whether they continue their cross-London journey on foot or by a separate ticket for the remaining distance of the cross-London leg or by Boris bike).

I'm far from satisfied that there is a consistent reading of the Regulations and Conditions which answer this question of a BoJ during the LU leg of a cross-London transfer.
I'd be very pleased to hear from anyone who knows of examples where this unilateral jurisdiction of ATOC (where LU have no reciprocal jurisdiction over the TOCs) has been tested.

 

[yorksrob]

Provided you don't visit a shop, cafe, fast food outlet, friend, or anything else on the way between stations, you are fine to walk.

Are you serious ?

I have to say, on most occasions I've bought an advanced through ticket from the Inter-City network to Kent for example, only the Inter-City section has ever been reserved. Are you saying that there's some sort of an unadvertised time limit that noone is told (but which railway staff are presumably allowed to make up on the hoof) on how long one must take to get from one terminal to another, even though it's explicitly understood that you are required to be outside of the railway's territory and travelling under your own steam ?

Supposing I have a medical condition that requires me to stop to eat between terminals. How is this any different from getting off the 125 at St Pancras and stopping to eat before catching the high speed for example ?

 

[yorkie]

Are you saying that there's some sort of an unadvertised time limit that noone is told (but which railway staff are presumably allowed to make up on the hoof) on how long one must take to get from one terminal to another, even though it's explicitly understood that you are required to be outside of the railway's territory and travelling under your own steam ?

I don't think anyone is saying that. It's perfectly valid to walk from, say, Liverpool St to Paddington just as it's valid to walk from St Pancras to Euston. The TOCs are not going to be fussed over such matters as whether someone gets a drink from a shop that is not on station premises on the way, but if loads of business people in suits with briefcases start pretending to have done such a walk when really they've had a meeting, I suspect they may not be happy then.

Supposing I have a medical condition that requires me to stop to eat between terminals. How is this any different from getting off the 125 at St Pancras and stopping to eat before catching the high speed for example ?

Well, it depends on your interpretation of the rules doesn't it! And, you feel it does fall foul of the rules, the only way to test it would be to find someone with such a condition to test it, and own up and ask the TOC if they want to charge an excess fare. I suspect the answer is likely to be that no excess is charged

 

[clagmonster]

I have to say, on most occasions I've bought an advanced through ticket from the Inter-City network to Kent for example, only the Inter-City section has ever been reserved. Are you saying that there's some sort of an unadvertised time limit that noone is told (but which railway staff are presumably allowed to make up on the hoof) on how long one must take to get from one terminal to another, even though it's explicitly understood that you are required to be outside of the railway's territory and travelling under your own steam ?

Break of journey is prohibited on an advance ticket. If you leave a station to go to another station you are fine. However, if when you leave the station with the intention of carrying out other business on non-railway premises, you are leaving the station in order to go for a pint (or whatever) then go to another station, thus breaking the conditions and leaving yourself liable to an excess fare or prosecution.

If you purchase food from a station outlet, you are using station facilities so this is not a problem. If you eat the food whilst walking/on the Underground, then I don't see a problem.

Whilst we are on the subject, is the Euston Tap on Euston station premises? Similarly, when the platform entrance is closed, is the walk from the concourse to the Sheffield Tap entirely on station premises?

 

[sheff1]

Walking would be fine, provided you go directly. See a few posts earlier where the NRCoC have been quoted.

I see no mention of directly in the NRCoC.

Last week, travelling on an Advance from Sheffield to Southampton I chose to walk across London. I did not, however, go direct as this would involve a walk along busy roads for much of the way. Instead I went via back streets and a couple of parks. In one park I even sat down for a few minutes and had a drink of water !

I do not believe I have contravened either the NRCoC or the T&Cs of the ticket.

 

[richw]

Are you allowed to leave an airport when changing flights? I know even a 6 hour connection a Heathrow wont get you far, but not sure if you are allowed. I doubt even a ba connection across London wouldn't really allow shopping time.

When I transferred at Athens, I had to stay within special area, got sent straight from arrivals to departures via a special corridor, without being required to go through passport

Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[tony_mac]

It doesn't say you must ONLY join a train at another station, without doing anything else in the meantime.

You are also not breaking your journey 'to stay in overnight accommodation when you cannot reasonably complete your journey within one day'

Does that mean you can't go out of your hotel for something to eat? Surely that's exactly the same as buying something to eat when walking to the next station? It's the same rule.

As much as I enjoy the occasional hypothetical, I think you just have to decide for yourself what a reasonable interpretation of the rules is.

 

[clagmonster]

Many of the cases of popping into a shop to buy a pie or going out of the hotel if you decide to eat at a different restaurant are decisions that are made after leaving the station, so in my opinion as you didn't intend to carry out these additional activities until after you left the station you are within the rules.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Are you saying that there's some sort of an unadvertised time limit that noone is told (but which railway staff are presumably allowed to make up on the hoof) on how long one must take to get from one terminal to another, even though it's explicitly understood that you are required to be outside of the railway's territory and travelling under your own steam ?....

Who said anything about a time limit? I certainly didn't.

 

[island]

It'll all come to a head sometime when an RPI on a +Connections TOC challenges someone for arriving at (e.g.) Euston at 1120 and not leaving Charing Cross until 1800.