Advantages of Smartcards over Contactless bank cards

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Something I'd love to know is

Particularly on networks where a deposit or minimum spend, or especially a separate additional charge, is applied to obtain the smart card in the first place, why do smartcards continue to be sold where contactless bank cards can be used in exactly the same way, and with the same benefits (eg. daily capping, ability to track spending/usage in the app, etc.)

 

[Bletchleyite]

People who prefer to use cash to load it?

 

[JonathanH]

There is a danger of passengers thinking that contactless cards are valid for journeys that extend between one contactless zone and another distinct contactless zone. For example, KeyGo PAYG is valid on a large part of the Southern network which overlaps with the completely different TfL system. Therefore, the system doesn't know how to route a Contactless touch at Clapham Junction to Southern's PAYG system or London's PAYG system.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Children and tourists are another two groups of people who may find smartcards more useful.

Children so they don't need a contactless bank card, though I know you can get "top up" debit cards these days so maybe less of an issue.

Tourists so they avoid any fees related to currency exchange on their regular cards, or for those with non contactless cards which can still be more common in other countries.

 

[Haywain]

Something I'd love to know is

Particularly on networks where a deposit or minimum spend, or especially a separate additional charge, is applied to obtain the smart card in the first place, why do smartcards continue to be sold where contactless bank cards can be used in exactly the same way, and with the same benefits (eg. daily capping, ability to track spending/usage in the app, etc.)

Because not everyone wants to use contactless in that way, for various reasons. And many people can't use contactless in that way.

 

[cool110]

...where contactless bank cards can be used in exactly the same way, and with the same benefits...

So nowhere then, given than none of the systems here support Railcard discounts.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Alright, let's say I'm referring to a standard smartcard then, rather than a concession one.

 

[redreni]

Alright, let's say I'm referring to a standard smartcard then, rather than a concession one.

Well, taking London's Oyster as an example, you say they're still sold and they are, but next to nobody buys them anymore unless they intend to get a Railcard or child discount set.

TfL certainly never advises anybody to buy them just for the sake of it. Are you suggesting they should be withdrawn from sale? What about people who want them so they can access a Railcard or child discount?

 

[Deerfold]

Well, taking London's Oyster as an example, you say they're still sold and they are, but next to nobody buys them anymore unless they intend to get a Railcard or child discount set.

TfL certainly never advises anybody to buy them just for the sake of it. Are you suggesting they should be withdrawn from sale? What about people who want them so they can access a Railcard or child discount?

Or if they want to buy a season ticket.

 

[redreni]

Or if they want to buy a season ticket.

I suppose so, although you'd have to specifically want the facility to use the season ticket in conjunction with PAYG to travel beyond your zones, otherwise why pay for an Oyster card when you could get the same season ticket on a TOC Smartcard without having to pay for the card?

 

[BongoStar]

I prefer to have a fixed top up on the smart card every other week rather than almost 10+ transactions on my bank statement.

Other reasons include:

- Prevents unnecessary holds on my account
- When submitting expense claims, easier to export and not having to filter the report too much to hide non TfL transactions
- Allows me to use the card even when my bank card is frozen/expired/stolen
- Can easily pass the smartcard to someone without having to worry about what else might end up on it

 

[crablab]

Anonymity.

 

[Andrew S]

I put my monthly travel cost onto oyster cards when I get paid. I find it easier that way than waiting for numerous daily charges to be debited to my bank account, sometimes several days later.

 

[Deerfold]

I suppose so, although you'd have to specifically want the facility to use the season ticket in conjunction with PAYG to travel beyond your zones, otherwise why pay for an Oyster card when you could get the same season ticket on a TOC Smartcard without having to pay for the card?

This thread was talking about Smartcards in general and their uses.

Though I'm not sure all Londoners will know that they can use none-Oyster smartcards within London, especially if they mostly don't use mainline rail except TfL Rail/Elizabeth Line.

I prefer to have a fixed top up on the smart card every other week rather than almost 10+ transactions on my bank statement.

Other reasons include:

- Prevents unnecessary holds on my account
- When submitting expense claims, easier to export and not having to filter the report too much to hide non TfL transactions
- Allows me to use the card even when my bank card is frozen/expired/stolen
- Can easily pass the smartcard to someone without having to worry about what else might end up on it

You can (when there's not a cyberattack) get all TfL transactions (either Oyster or Contactless) with a TfL account - I submit expenses using that regularly.

 

[ChrisC]

Something I'd love to know is

Particularly on networks where a deposit or minimum spend, or especially a separate additional charge, is applied to obtain the smart card in the first place, why do smartcards continue to be sold where contactless bank cards can be used in exactly the same way, and with the same benefits (eg. daily capping, ability to track spending/usage in the app, etc.)

I think in some cases it may be a generational thing. Contactless bank cards are a relatively new thing. I’m only in my late 60’s but I can still remember when chip and pin was also a new thing. Most people paid with cash and a bank card was mainly used to get cash out of an atm or for if you wanted to pay for something in a shop by writing a cheque, but only up to the value of £50. Bank cards were something that were seen as quite valuable and you kept them tucked away somewhere very securely and only used them occasionally. They were certainly not something that you kept in your back pocket and flashed around all over the place as people do today. Even now, when I visit somewhere like London I prefer to use an Oyster card or equivalent which may only have around £50 loaded onto it. My bank card will be kept in my wallet which will be securely stored in a zipped up inside pocket of my rucksack.

 

[DelW]

They were certainly not something that you kept in your back pocket and flashed around all over the place as people do today. Even now, when I visit somewhere like London I prefer to use an Ouster card which may only have around £50 loaded onto it. My bank card will be kept in my wallet which will be securely stored in a zipped up inside pocket of my rucksack.

That's my logic too. If I'm going somewhere where there's a risk of loss or theft, the consequences of losing a PAYG Oyster with £20 credit on it are far less than the consequences and hassle if my bank card goes AWOL. I prefer pubs that take cash over card-only ones for the same reason.

 

[redreni]

This thread was talking about Smartcards in general and their uses.

Though I'm not sure all Londoners will know that they can use none-Oyster smartcards within London, especially if they mostly don't use mainline rail except TfL Rail/Elizabeth Line.


You can (when there's not a cyberattack) get all TfL transactions (either Oyster or Contactless) with a TfL account - I submit expenses using that regularly.

I think the OP was particularly curious as to why people *pay* for Smartcards, though?

'To get a season ticket' is not really a satisfactory answer to that question if it's possible to get the season ticket without paying for a Smartcard (even if that still involves getting a Smartcard for free). Perhaps people are unaware of the ITSO option, as you say.

But perhaps the question is more why do people pay for an Oyster in order to use PAYG if they're not entitled to a concession? I wasn't aware anybody did.

A lot of people still have oyster cards that they got for free years ago and I can quite understand why they might prefer to use those rather than Contactless.

 

[ChrisC]

That's my logic too. If I'm going somewhere where there's a risk of loss or theft, the consequences of losing a PAYG Oyster with £20 credit on it are far less than the consequences and hassle if my bank card goes AWOL. I prefer pubs that take cash over card-only ones for the same reason.

A couple of years ago I opened another bank account which I keep just for contactless payments for small amounts. I never keep more than £200 in this account and I don‘t mind using it on buses, in cafes, pubs etc when I’m out and about. I still try to keep it in a zipped up pocket but it means I don’t have the worry of losing my main bank card. I still wouldn’t use that card in London at busy tube stations but perhaps that’s just me being a bit paranoid being used to living in a more rural area.

 

[jon81uk]

When submitting expense claims, easier to export and not having to filter the report too much to hide non TfL transactions

For my workplace the expenses need a receipt, the bank statement will not be accepted. So doesn't matter if you use Oyster or contactless still need to log into TfL website and download the statement showing all the journeys.

That's my logic too. If I'm going somewhere where there's a risk of loss or theft, the consequences of losing a PAYG Oyster with £20 credit on it are far less than the consequences and hassle if my bank card goes AWOL. I prefer pubs that take cash over card-only ones for the same reason.

For me cash has significantly higher consequences if I lose it, as I can't get it back. Whereas my bank card can be stopped immediately, I can see the transaction history and any transactions that take place after I report the loss are the banks issue.

Lost my wallet a few years ago and the £30 in cash I had in it. But my bank cards were re-issued within a few weeks.

 

[DelW]

For me cash has significantly higher consequences if I lose it, as I can't get it back. Whereas my bank card can be stopped immediately, I can see the transaction history and any transactions that take place after I report the loss are the banks issue.

Lost my wallet a few years ago and the £30 in cash I had in it. But my bank cards were re-issued within a few weeks.

Personally I'd rather lose £30 than go through the hassle of stopping the card, getting any illicit transactions refunded, getting a new card issued, and probably changing the card number on multiple websites and apps. But each to their own, that's only my personal view and others may see it differently.

 

[jon81uk]

Personally I'd rather lose £30 than go through the hassle of stopping the card, getting any illicit transactions refunded, getting a new card issued, and probably changing the card number on multiple websites and apps. But each to their own, that's only my personal view and others may see it differently.

Having had my saved card used fraudulently after a password leak I don't store the details in websites and apps now, preferring to use Apple Pay most of the time.
Never had an illicit transaction because someone came into possession of the physical card, the only two I've had were when they got access to the card details via some other method.

But my wallet stays in my bag on my commute anyway, I tap my phone for Apple Pay on the Underground now as thats in my pocket and then I scan the eticket for my train.

Only time I use a smart card is the very rare occasion it is cheaper to get a travelcard because of the additional journeys being done. I didn't pay for the Greater Anglia smartcard.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I can't use contactless with my Safeguarded Prive

 

[sor]

For non-PAYG tickets, I prefer smartcard over e-ticket because there is no reliance on a phone or its battery, or indeed any equipment I provide. If the card won't read (and I haven't obviously damaged it) then it is the railway's problem. I haven't had the chance to use PAYG on the National Rail network yet - I've been waiting for the Cornish PAYG to migrate westwards - but I think the same reason applies.

For Oyster - since I do not live in London and I am not eligible for any railcard discount, I don't see the point in keeping a card with even a small amount of money topped up and earning TfL a bit of interest. Being able to tap in and out with my watch is another plus. I find TfL contactless very user friendly, never had any problems with being charged the wrong fare.

 

[jfollows]

For Oyster - since I do not live in London and I am not eligible for any railcard discount, I don't see the point in keeping a card with even a small amount of money topped up and earning TfL a bit of interest. Being able to tap in and out with my watch is another plus. I find TfL contactless very user friendly, never had any problems with being charged the wrong fare.

I agree, contactless has been excellent until the current mess, I use my credit card via Apple Watch so no need to get out my wallet and extract its cards, and I also hate lots of itty-bitty bank transactions but for some reason don’t mind them on my credit card statement. My only “problem” was a failure to record a tap-out, but it appeared after a couple of days and all was good. Never needed a smartcard. Don’t want Oyster because I’m an infrequent visitor to London and can’t be bothered with my railcard discount anyway.

 

[londonbridge]

Having had my saved card used fraudulently after a password leak I don't store the details in websites and apps now, preferring to use Apple Pay most of the time.
Never had an illicit transaction because someone came into possession of the physical card, the only two I've had were when they got access to the card details via some other method.

Same here. I had a text message from my bank asking me to confirm certain transactions on my account. I responded by phoning the bank who confirmed it was a genuine text. I then established that my card details had been used to buy £400 of groceries and merchandise from two branches of Tesco in Scotland in two separate transactions a few minutes apart. It was flagged up by the fact I’d used the card to obtain money from a cash point in London shortly before the first one was made. I got a full refund. Someone also used my details to obtain goods from Very and the first I knew of it was when I received a letter thanking me for opening an account. I rang customer services and, following the conversation, had another letter confirming fraudulent transactions and that the account had been cancelled and written off.

Separately, I had a message from my credit card provider, “we believe your account may be at risk of fraud so we’ve cancelled your card, new one will be received shortly”. I looked on the app and saw my card listed as lost/stolen and a new card added. New card turned up a few days later.

About five months later the same thing happened again. This time I phoned customer services who said that if Visa/Mastercard are alerted to potential website breaches, they will notify the banks, who then make a decision on cancelling the card and notifying customers. He said he couldn’t say which website was involved, however I had only made three transactions with the replacement card, so I asked was it (company name), he said he couldn’t confirm or deny but the change of tone in his voice told me I was on the right track.

I then went through websites I use(d) regularly and deleted stored payment details. The extra minute or so required to put my card number in every time doesn’t bother me.

 

[plugwash]

Particularly on networks where a deposit or minimum spend, or especially a separate additional charge, is applied to obtain the smart card in the first place, why do smartcards continue to be sold where contactless bank cards can be used in exactly the same way, and with the same benefits (eg. daily capping, ability to track spending/usage in the app, etc.)

There are several reasons.

1. There are people who don't have bank accounts with contactless payment cards for various reasons. Foreigners from countries whose banking systems are not well integrated with the west. Poor and homeless people who find it hard to get bank accounts. People who have burnt their bridges with the banks by failing to comply with the account terms. Prepaid cards do exist but they bring their own problems, so I doubt transport providers want to encourage their use.
2. Some people may be rightly wary of a system that charges their card automatically without making it clear what is being spent.
3. Smartcards can hold pre-purchased tickets (particularly season tickets), this is difficult to do with contactless payment cards because the transport provider doesn't "own" the card and can't store data on it.
4. There can effectively only be one "contactless PAYG" scheme in a given area, whereas there can be multiple smartcard PAYG schemes. So TFL's PAYG scheme is available on contactless because they got their first, but GTRs PAYG scheme is only availble on a key smartcard. When the government wanted to expand contactless PAYG around London they were essentially forced to give the contract to TFL.
5. Discounts are a tricky subject with contactless PAYG because the transport provider doesn't own the card and can't store data on it. So it's difficult to offer discounts in an abuse (i.e. one person applying for the discount and then a different person using the card) resistant manner .

 

[redreni]

(5) is a new one in the list of excuses for overcharging Railcard holders if they use PAYG.

Doesn't work for the Network Railcard, of course, as that's issued without a photocard. If I wanted to contravene the T&Cs (which I don't) I could lend mine to anyone I wanted to. Even if I wouldn't necessarily trust them enough to give them my credit or debit card. (I know there's a whole set of different excuses that can be trotted out with respect to the Network Railcard, so no need to go over them again here. At least, not for my benefit).

 

[cool110]

5. Discounts are a tricky subject with contactless PAYG because the transport provider doesn't own the card and can't store data on it. So it's difficult to offer discounts in an abuse (i.e. one person applying for the discount and then a different person using the card) resistant manner .

It works in the Netherlands now. Thanks to their revenue staff having online devices they can lookup the card number in the database and download the photo of anyone registered for child/senior rate.

 

[redreni]

It works in the Netherlands now. Thanks to their revenue staff having online devices they can lookup the card number in the database and download the photo of anyone registered for child/senior rate.

Quite. I don't think anybody is suggesting it should be possible to set Railcard discounts for unregistered contactless payment cards.

All that's needed (low tech option) is a requirement, which could be made crystal clear to customers when they ask for the Railcard discount to be applied to their payment card through their account, to carry photo ID in their own name, as well as the Railcard, when they travel. Or, as you say, take a photograph of the customer when the Railcard discount is applied, store that on the Contactless account and let revenue protection staff see the photograph whenever they do a revenue check on the card (which would prompt them to check if it's the right person and to ask to see the Railcard).

 

[Haywain]

It works in the Netherlands now. Thanks to their revenue staff having online devices they can lookup the card number in the database and download the photo of anyone registered for child/senior rate.

Is that for contactless payment cards or the OV Chipcard (that's not quite the right name, but memory fails me!), or both?