Advice on delay with split tickets

[dggar]

I would appreciate some advice as to whether I am entitled to Delay Repay for the following journey.

My wife and I travelled from Manchester Pic (MAN) to Audley End (AUD) on 8th June.
The recommended journey on the National Rail site gives
MAN dep 10.35 arrive Leeds 11.35. (1P21)
Leeds dep 1145 arrive Peterborough 13.07 (1A28)
Peterborough dep 13.19 arrive Audley End 14.24 (1L36)
I bought separate advance tickets for each stage of the journey. The tickets were bought on 5th of May. All tickets were bought via the TransPennine online booking site.


The train 1P21 arrived 8 minutes late at Leeds into Platform 15B at 11.43.

Train 1A28 was due to depart from Platform 8 from Leeds.

The recommended time for connections at Leeds is 10 mins.

Despite rushing from platform 15b to platform 8 when we reached Platform 8 the doors had been locked and the train was being dispatched.

We were advised at the information kiosk on platform 8 that the next connection to Audley End would be the12.45 departure. Connecting with the 13.19 XC service at Peterborough.

The XC train arrived at Audley End 3 minutes late. Our total delay time was 1 hr. 3 minutes.



Virgin Trains East Coast T&Cs state the following:

You must allow enough time to catch your train.
Doors are locked up to two minutes before departure

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I would appreciate some advice as to whether I am entitled to Delay Repay for the following journey.

My wife and I travelled from Manchester Pic (MAN) to Audley End (AUD) on 8th June.
The recommended journey on the National Rail site gives
MAN dep 10.35 arrive Leeds 11.35. (1P21)
Leeds dep 1145 arrive Peterborough 13.07 (1A28)
Peterborough dep 13.19 arrive Audley End 14.24 (1L36)
I bought separate advance tickets for each stage of the journey. The tickets were bought on 5th of May. All tickets were bought via the TransPennine online booking site.


The train 1P21 arrived 8 minutes late at Leeds into Platform 15B at 11.43.

Train 1A28 was due to depart from Platform 8 from Leeds.

The recommended time for connections at Leeds is 10 mins.

Despite rushing from platform 15b to platform 8 when we reached Platform 8 the doors had been locked and the train was being dispatched.

We were advised at the information kiosk on platform 8 that the next connection to Audley End would be the12.45 departure. Connecting with the 13.19 XC service at Peterborough.

The XC train arrived at Audley End 3 minutes late. Our total delay time was 1 hr. 3 minutes.



Virgin Trains East Coast T&Cs state the following:

You must allow enough time to catch your train.
Doors are locked up to two minutes before departure

Since your planned itinerary left sufficient connecting time at each interchange station, and since your tickets 'joined up' (i.e. there were no gaps as there might be between London termini), Virgin Trains East Coast's terms and conditions (I think you may be quoting from their Passengers' Charter actually) are of no relevance - the fact that you missed your train was entirely the fault of the laterunning of your previous train.

Condition 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel establishes that you may use multiple tickets to make one journey. Condition 33.3 establishes that for delays of 60 minutes or more in arriving at your destination station, you are entitled to a minimum of 50% of your single ticket(s) in compensation, as long as the cause of the delay was not entirely outside the control of the rail industry. It also provides that each individual TOC's Passengers' Charter sets out the actual compensation due in the case of delays.

TransPennine Express is liable for the applicable delay compensation in this instance, as they caused you to miss your connection and thus made you late. Their Passengers' Charter sets out on page 8 that you are entitled to Delay Repay compensation in the event of a delay to your journey of 30 minutes or more, and that the reason for the delay is not a factor in whether you are entitled to this compensation. In the event of a delay of 60 minutes or more, it sets out that you are entitled to compensation in the sum of 100% of your single ticket(s) - i.e. 100% of their combined value.

Given the above, you should make a claim to TransPennine Express within 28 days of your journey. Whilst they have an online portal to make claims, this does not seem to cater to passengers with more than one ticket and I would thus submit your claim by email, setting out clearly what your original intended itinerary was, what trains you ended up taking (and when they arrived), plus the tickets you used. Their enquiries email address is [email protected].

Please let us know if you have any problems claiming your compensation. Sometimes some TOCs will claim that you are only entitled to compensation on the ticket you used on their services, but this is absolutely not correct - you are entitled to make your journey using multiple tickets and you are entitled to compensation on their entire value. Any TOC which tried rejecting such a claim by me would find themselves at the receiving end of a County Court Claim rather quickly!

 

[dggar]

Since your planned itinerary left sufficient connecting time at each interchange station, and since your tickets 'joined up' (i.e. there were no gaps as there might be between London termini), Virgin Trains East Coast's terms and conditions (I think you may be quoting from their Passengers' Charter actually) are of no relevance - the fact that you missed your train was entirely the fault of the laterunning of your previous train.

Condition 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel establishes that you may use multiple tickets to make one journey. Condition 33.3 establishes that for delays of 60 minutes or more in arriving at your destination station, you are entitled to a minimum of 50% of your single ticket(s) in compensation, as long as the cause of the delay was not entirely outside the control of the rail industry. It also provides that each individual TOC's Passengers' Charter sets out the actual compensation due in the case of delays.

TransPennine Express is liable for the applicable delay compensation in this instance, as they caused you to miss your connection and thus made you late. Their Passengers' Charter sets out on page 8 that you are entitled to Delay Repay compensation in the event of a delay to your journey of 30 minutes or more, and that the reason for the delay is not a factor in whether you are entitled to this compensation. In the event of a delay of 60 minutes or more, it sets out that you are entitled to compensation in the sum of 100% of your single ticket(s) - i.e. 100% of their combined value.

Given the above, you should make a claim to TransPennine Express within 28 days of your journey. Whilst they have an online portal to make claims, this does not seem to cater to passengers with more than one ticket and I would thus submit your claim by email, setting out clearly what your original intended itinerary was, what trains you ended up taking (and when they arrived), plus the tickets you used. Their enquiries email address is [email protected].

Please let us know if you have any problems claiming your compensation. Sometimes some TOCs will claim that you are only entitled to compensation on the ticket you used on their services, but this is absolutely not correct - you are entitled to make your journey using multiple tickets and you are entitled to compensation on their entire value. Any TOC which tried rejecting such a claim by me would find themselves at the receiving end of a County Court Claim rather quickly!

Thank you for your very helpful reply.
I mentioned the Virgin policy to highlight that they Doors on the 11.45 may have been locked as early as 11.43 which was the time that our first train arrived at Leeds, thus giving us no time to possibly catch our connection.

 

[yorkie]

I would appreciate some advice as to whether I am entitled to Delay Repay for the following journey.

My wife and I travelled from Manchester Pic (MAN) to Audley End (AUD) on 8th June.
The recommended journey on the National Rail site gives
MAN dep 10.35 arrive Leeds 11.35. (1P21)
Leeds dep 1145 arrive Peterborough 13.07 (1A28)
Peterborough dep 13.19 arrive Audley End 14.24 (1L36)
I bought separate advance tickets for each stage of the journey. The tickets were bought on 5th of May. All tickets were bought via the TransPennine online booking site.


The train 1P21 arrived 8 minutes late at Leeds into Platform 15B at 11.43.

Train 1A28 was due to depart from Platform 8 from Leeds.

The recommended time for connections at Leeds is 10 mins.

Despite rushing from platform 15b to platform 8 when we reached Platform 8 the doors had been locked and the train was being dispatched.

We were advised at the information kiosk on platform 8 that the next connection to Audley End would be the12.45 departure. Connecting with the 13.19 XC service at Peterborough.

The XC train arrived at Audley End 3 minutes late. Our total delay time was 1 hr. 3 minutes.

You are entitled to Delay Repay to the value of 100% of the single cost of your journey from Manchester to Audley End from TPE.

Virgin Trains East Coast T&Cs state the following:

You must allow enough time to catch your train.

You did exactly that.

 

[paddington]

The recommended time for connections at Leeds is 10 mins.

Virgin Trains East Coast T&Cs state the following:

You must allow enough time to catch your train.
Doors are locked up to two minutes before departure

The 10 minutes allowed for connecting is supposed to take this into account. You did allow enough time to catch your train.

As you have experienced, although your first train arrived at 1143 you were able to reach the second train by 1145, so if it had been on time you could have made it to the second platform by 1137.

 

[dggar]

The 10 minutes allowed for connecting is supposed to take this into account. You did allow enough time to catch your train.

As you have experienced, although your first train arrived at 1143 you were able to reach the second train by 1145, so if it had been on time you could have made it to the second platform by 1137.

According to RailDar the actual departure time of the second train was 11.45:28.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

According to RailDar the actual departure time of the second train was 11.45:28.

Where on Raildar can you see this?

Edit: found it.

 

[dggar]

Since your planned itinerary left sufficient connecting time at each interchange station, and since your tickets 'joined up' (i.e. there were no gaps as there might be between London termini), Virgin Trains East Coast's terms and conditions (I think you may be quoting from their Passengers' Charter actually) are of no relevance - the fact that you missed your train was entirely the fault of the laterunning of your previous train.

Condition 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel establishes that you may use multiple tickets to make one journey. Condition 33.3 establishes that for delays of 60 minutes or more in arriving at your destination station, you are entitled to a minimum of 50% of your single ticket(s) in compensation, as long as the cause of the delay was not entirely outside the control of the rail industry. It also provides that each individual TOC's Passengers' Charter sets out the actual compensation due in the case of delays.

TransPennine Express is liable for the applicable delay compensation in this instance, as they caused you to miss your connection and thus made you late. Their Passengers' Charter sets out on page 8 that you are entitled to Delay Repay compensation in the event of a delay to your journey of 30 minutes or more, and that the reason for the delay is not a factor in whether you are entitled to this compensation. In the event of a delay of 60 minutes or more, it sets out that you are entitled to compensation in the sum of 100% of your single ticket(s) - i.e. 100% of their combined value.

Given the above, you should make a claim to TransPennine Express within 28 days of your journey. Whilst they have an online portal to make claims, this does not seem to cater to passengers with more than one ticket and I would thus submit your claim by email, setting out clearly what your original intended itinerary was, what trains you ended up taking (and when they arrived), plus the tickets you used. Their enquiries email address is [email protected].

Please let us know if you have any problems claiming your compensation. Sometimes some TOCs will claim that you are only entitled to compensation on the ticket you used on their services, but this is absolutely not correct - you are entitled to make your journey using multiple tickets and you are entitled to compensation on their entire value. Any TOC which tried rejecting such a claim by me would find themselves at the receiving end of a County Court Claim rather quickly!

I have already submitted a claim via the TransPennine portal.

There was no problem about submitting copy images of the tickets for each portion of the journey.

The portal asks you what journey you are making and the shows up the same journey plan as shown by the National Rail Journey Planner.

There is a section for free text for you to complete to giver a fuller explanation of the reasons you believe you are entitled to compensation.


This is what I entered into the free text section.:-


“I was making this journey with my wife. The journey was shown on the National Rail web site as being a valid journey for connection times. Train 1P21 (Y72653) 10.35 from Piccadilly was delayed on route and arrived at Leeds over 8 minutes late. The train was 9 minutes down at Huddersfield and I spoke with the Train Manager as to what our expect time at Leeds would be. He was very helpful and told us we would be allowed on the next available service if the connection at Leeds was missed.

Despite rushing from Platform 15 to Platform 8 at Leeds by the time we reached the platform the doors on train 1A28 (Y73812) had been closed and the train was being dispatched. The train dispatcher came with me to the information point on platform 8 at Leeds and it was confirmed that the next connection to Audley End was the 12.45 train 1A30 (Y73817).

We caught this train to Peterborough and caught the 14.19 train 1L40 (C76503) to Audley End. This train arrived 3 minutes late at Audley End.

All tickets were bought on line through the Trans Pennine web site .

The booking references are J5CT85TL, NB33RRCT, F5GTXN36.”


I received this reply :-


“Dear Mr Xxxx,

Thank you for your recent Delay Repay claim regarding your journey, as
detailed below.

Your unique reference is DR-9551-0390.

We have reviewed your journey and have calculated that the delay experienced
on your overall journey, was less than 30 minutes. In this instance
compensation is not offered under our current policy, for more information on
this please refer to our website
https://www.tpexpress.co.uk/help/delay-repay-compensation . If you feel that
we have missed something, then please contact the Customer Service Centre at
[email protected]

Your planned route (scheduled times):
Departing 1035 from Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds arriving 1135.
Departing 1145 from Leeds to Peterborough arriving 1307.
Departing 1319 from Peterborough to Audley End arriving 1424.

Route we think you took (actual times):
Departed 1038 from Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds arrived 1143.
Departed 1145 from Leeds to Peterborough arrived 1311.
Departed 1321 from Peterborough to Audley End arrived 1431.

Kind regards,
TransPennine Express
Delay Repay Team “

They appear to be claiming that we managed to Travel on the 11.45 from Leeds!



I have replied to the Customer Service Centre pointing out that have appeared to have completely ignored the second paragraph of my original submission .


This is the text that I sent:-

“In assessing this claim you appear to have failed to take into account the second paragragh.

We were not allowed to board the 11.45 train at Leeds as the train doors had already been locked and the train was being dispatched.

The following is taken from the Virgin Trains East Coast Terms & Conditions

https://www.virgintrainseastcoast.com/support/terms-and-conditions/

You must allow enough time to catch your train. Doors are locked up to two minutes before departure



The doors will have been locked the at some point between 11.43 and 11.45, so the late arrival of the 10.35 from Manchester Piccadilly made it impossible for us to take the

"route we think you took "



Route we actually took(actual times):
Departed 10.38 from Manchester Piccadilly to Leeds arrived 11.43.
Departed 12.45 from Leeds to Peterborough arrived 14.08.
Departed 14.19 from Peterborough to Audley End arrived 15.27.



A delay of 1hr 3minutes.”



I am now awaiting their reply.

 

[yorkie]

I am not surprised that you received incorrect information from TransPennine Express. They really are very poor in this area.

A minor, non-material point, I would not have said " This train arrived 3 minutes late at Audley End."; I would have said "This train arrived at Audley End at XX:XX, resulting in an overall delay to our journey of XX minutes" (or similiar), to keep things simple.

If they do not resolve your complaint at their next reply, you can refer them to Transport Focus at https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint/

 

[dggar]

I am not surprised that you received incorrect information from TransPennine Express. They really are very poor in this area.

A minor, non-material point, I would not have said " This train arrived 3 minutes late at Audley End."; I would have said "This train arrived at Audley End at XX:XX, resulting in an overall delay to our journey of XX minutes" (or similiar), to keep things simple.

If they do not resolve your complaint at their next reply, you can refer them to Transport Focus at https://www.transportfocus.org.uk/contact/complaint/

Thanks for your reply Yorkie.. If I need to contact Transport Focus I will come back further advice.

 

[BRX]

I didn't know that delay repay would apply to the whole journey in this scenario. I thought the effect of buying a series of advance tickets was that each journey segment became independent of the others.

I assume though, if train no.1 being late means you miss train 2 and consequently have to buy a new ticket that's considerably more expensive than the advance ticket you'd bought, you aren't compensated for this?

 

[yorkie]

I didn't know that delay repay would apply to the whole journey in this scenario. I thought the effect of buying a series of advance tickets was that each journey segment became independent of the others.

I refer you to the NRCoT http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/images/structure/css/Conditions of Travel 2016.pdf, specifically Condition 14:

Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey

There are even National Rail accredited booking sites that will offer a combination of tickets for one journey, and give you one itinerary for your journey and one collection reference number. (It may be handy, in the event of delays, to be able to forward such an email to the relevant TOC's customer services department, as clear evidence of the original booked itinerary for the journey, along with details of tickets held for the journey)

I assume though, if train no.1 being late means you miss train 2 and consequently have to buy a new ticket that's considerably more expensive than the advance ticket you'd bought, you aren't compensated for this?

Why would anyone need to buy new tickets if they missed a connection during their journey?

Again I refer you to the NRCoT, specifically Condition 9.4:

if you are using an advance Ticket and you miss your booked train because a previous connecting train service was delayed, you will be able to travel on the next train service provided by the Train Company with whom you were booked without penalty

Advance tickets have stated that they are valid, in the event of a delay occurring, for as long as I can remember (and certainly for the entire time that the common name "Advance" has been used to describe all such booked train only tickets).

There is further information in our Fares Guide: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...1-ticket-types-conditions.70018/#post-1179550

 

[BRX]

Well I've clearly been labouring under a misapprehension for some time on this, one that has sometimes prevented me from buying advance tickets as parts of multi leg journeys.

Is it something that the rules changed on, some time back?

 

[dggar]

Thanks for your reply Yorkie.. If I need to contact Transport Focus I will come back further advice.

Update.
I have received the following from TPEx:

"Hi,
Thank you for contacting TransPennine Express.
I was sorry to hear you were unhappy due to not being offered any compensation for your delay repay claim. I have looked into this and have now requested that our Finance Department issue you a cheque to the value of £50.60. This will be sent under separate cover and should be received within 15 working days.


Thanks again for getting in touch.
Kind regards,
TransPennine Express
Delay Repay Team"

So now awaiting the cheque.
Thanks for everyone's help.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Update.
I have received the following from TPEx:

"Hi,
Thank you for contacting TransPennine Express.
I was sorry to hear you were unhappy due to not being offered any compensation for your delay repay claim. I have looked into this and have now requested that our Finance Department issue you a cheque to the value of £50.60. This will be sent under separate cover and should be received within 15 working days.


Thanks again for getting in touch.
Kind regards,
TransPennine Express
Delay Repay Team"

So now awaiting the cheque.
Thanks for everyone's help.

Is this the correct amount - i.e. 100% of both of your tickets?

 

[_toommm_]

Is this the correct amount - i.e. 100% of both of your tickets?

And will they spell your name right and send it to the right address? I've had my last name spelt like male 'parts' instead of Cox, and I've had a cheque sent 50 doors down from where it should have been!

 

[westv]

Presumably (with split tickets and different TOCs) there is no obligation upon the passenger to ask/get the ticket endorsed before boarding the next service when the first TOC causes them to miss the other TOC's connection - especially if time it tight to get the next service?

 

[_toommm_]

Presumably (with split tickets and different TOCs) there is no obligation upon the passenger to ask/get the ticket endorsed before boarding the next service when the first TOC causes them to miss the other TOC's connection - especially if time it tight to get the next service?

In the past yes there was, but recently staff are reluctant to endorse, or flat out say there's no need to endorse anymore (in my experience at least)

 

[Hadders]

There is no requirement to get tickets endorsed in the event of a delay although it can be helpful to staff ‘further down the line’.

This is all documented in the rail industry’s internal knowledge base.

 

[dggar]

Is this the correct amount - i.e. 100% of both of your tickets?

Yes that is the correct amount.
I did ask the train manager on the Manchester to Leeds train about endorsing the tickets and he said there was no need. This was also stated by the person on the information kiosk on Leeds Station.

 

[BlueFox]

Is it something that the rules changed on, some time back?

I don't know if there has been a rule change, but it's certainly been possible since 2013, when I made a claim with Transpennine for a split ticket journey (it was an odd route too - Preston to London, with changes at Manchester, Sheffield and Retford).
They paid it immediately. I enclosed a letter with my claim, which quoted the relevant section of NRCoC, which may have helped.

 

[Hadders]

Delay Repay and split tickets was always an issue on which people disagreed but a Freedom of Information Act request to East Coast revealed the 'Advance Fares FAQs' which clarified the position regarding missed connections. I can't remember exactly when the information came to light but 2013 seems about right.

Some train companies still refuse to pay Delay Repay compensation when using a combination of tickets (Hull Trains, I'm looking at you) and the useless Transport Focus just let them get away with it.

There are some better companies (e.g SWR) whose Passenger Charters specifically state they will compensate when a combination of tickets is used.

 

[185143]

Delay Repay and split tickets was always an issue on which people disagreed but a Freedom of Information Act request to East Coast revealed the 'Advance Fares FAQs' which clarified the position regarding missed connections. I can't remember exactly when the information came to light but 2013 seems about right.

Some train companies still refuse to pay Delay Repay compensation when using a combination of tickets (Hull Trains, I'm looking at you) and the useless Transport Focus just let them get away with it.

There are some better companies (e.g SWR) whose Passenger Charters specifically state they will compensate when a combination of tickets is used.

So...
First/MTR SWR specifically say they will.
First TPE will when pushed.
First Hull Trains blatantly refuse.

Sounds about right!

 

[westv]

It makes no sense that a TOC would refund:-
a multi TOC route walk up fare bought from another TOC
refuse to refund split tickets for the same route bought from them

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It makes no sense that a TOC would refund:-
a multi TOC route walk up fare bought from another TOC
refuse to refund split tickets for the same route bought from them

I don't see what the relevance of who you bought the ticket from is.

 

[island]

Nor do I.

Each TOC has its own particular interpretation of the rules, and the debate on what precisely one is and isn't entitled to has been done to death on this forum numerous times without consensus. The only way it is likely to get decided one way or another is if a customer is refused and is bothered enough to bring the matter to court, and then only if the TOC in question doesn't settle.

 

[Haywain]

Each TOC has its own particular interpretation of the rules, and the debate on what precisely one is and isn't entitled to has been done to death on this forum numerous times without consensus. The only way it is likely to get decided one way or another is if a customer is refused and is bothered enough to bring the matter to court, and then only if the TOC in question doesn't settle.

And specifically to get a case to a high enough court to set a legal precedent. This is not very likely as the small claims court is as far as most will get.

 

[dggar]

Last Update:
Cheque arrived this morning.
Apart from the initial reaction from TPEx this has gone very smoothly.

Thanks to every one who took the time to offer advice.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks to every one who took the time to offer advice.

Glad you got a good result (even if it did take a gentle shove to get them to wake up!).