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Advice on pre-court settlement offer

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aztec29

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My usual trip into work is from Bedminster station to Patchway station, neither of which has barriers or ticket machines. I therefore usually buy a return ticket from the conductor on board the train, or on occasion at Patchway when there's anyone there to check or sell tickets.

One Monday morning a few weeks ago, I travelled from Bedminster to Patchway, changing at Bristol Temple Meads. On neither train did a conductor come through and sell me a ticket. Therefore, when I arrived at Patchway and approached the ticket inspectors upon leaving the station, I expected them to sell me a return ticket.

Instead, I was asked for my ID and personal details and given the third degree by the ticket inspector. I naively went through all of this as politely as I could, assuming that he would eventually sell me a ticket as I'd asked him to, but was instead given a zero fare ticket for my return journey and told I'd receive a letter asking for the return fare and an admin fee. I queried why they weren't selling me a ticket, but clearly wasn't getting anywhere so took the ticket and left.

A few days later I received a pre-court settlement offer from GWR asking for the single fare (£4.40) plus an £80 fee to settle the matter. I replied via email (I tried phoning to discuss but they need an audit trail) to say that I wasn't able to buy a ticket before meeting the inspector, so don't see what I've done to warrant being taken to court.

They've now replied to say that it was my responsibility to find the conductor on either train to pay the fare, and that I also had the opportunity to pay at Temple Meads (but I'm not sure how as the ticket machines are outside the barriers).

My question is therefore, am I legally in the right here? What steps do I need to take to pay the fare, especially when the conductor doesn't come through? And is this worth disputing in the hope that GWR won't take it to court or, if they do, I'll be acquitted?

For what it's worth, I didn't intend to dodge the fare and would have bought a ticket if I'd been presented with the opportunity, and I do resent being treated like a fare dodger, especially since inspectors at Patchway have sold me tickets without any problems before - but then again that's hardly a legal viewpoint. It would be good to know where I stand.
 
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ForTheLoveOf

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My usual trip into work is from Bedminster station to Patchway station, neither of which has barriers or ticket machines. I therefore usually buy a return ticket from the conductor on board the train, or on occasion at Patchway when there's anyone there to check or sell tickets.

One Monday morning a few weeks ago, I travelled from Bedminster to Patchway, changing at Bristol Temple Meads. On neither train did a conductor come through and sell me a ticket. Therefore, when I arrived at Patchway and approached the ticket inspectors upon leaving the station, I expected them to sell me a return ticket.

Instead, I was asked for my ID and personal details and given the third degree by the ticket inspector. I naively went through all of this as politely as I could, assuming that he would eventually sell me a ticket as I'd asked him to, but was instead given a zero fare ticket for my return journey and told I'd receive a letter asking for the return fare and an admin fee. I queried why they weren't selling me a ticket, but clearly wasn't getting anywhere so took the ticket and left.

A few days later I received a pre-court settlement offer from GWR asking for the single fare (£4.40) plus an £80 fee to settle the matter. I replied via email (I tried phoning to discuss but they need an audit trail) to say that I wasn't able to buy a ticket before meeting the inspector, so don't see what I've done to warrant being taken to court.

They've now replied to say that it was my responsibility to find the conductor on either train to pay the fare, and that I also had the opportunity to pay at Temple Meads (but I'm not sure how as the ticket machines are outside the barriers).

My question is therefore, am I legally in the right here? What steps do I need to take to pay the fare, especially when the conductor doesn't come through? And is this worth disputing in the hope that GWR won't take it to court or, if they do, I'll be acquitted?

For what it's worth, I didn't intend to dodge the fare and would have bought a ticket if I'd been presented with the opportunity, and I do resent being treated like a fare dodger, especially since inspectors at Patchway have sold me tickets without any problems before - but then again that's hardly a legal viewpoint. It would be good to know where I stand.
As far as I can tell from National Rail Enquiries' information about Bedminster station, there are no ticket facilities whatsoever - no ticket office, no ticket machines and no permit to travel machine. Is this still up to date?

If yes, then you are likely to be legally in the right. But it does depend on a few factors.

First of all, how much time do you have at Bristol Temple Meads when you change there? If it is sufficient time that you might reasonably be expected to buy a ticket there whilst waiting for your connection (e.g. say 20 minutes), then failing to make use of ticketing facilities there, such as the staff who inevitably man the excess fares window/stand on the 'paid' side of the barriers, could be seen as meaning that you intended to avoid paying the fare.

However, if the connection is tight then there is certainly no obligation to risk a delay to your journey, just to buy a ticket. And neither is there any obligation to actively search out the conductor on-board if you need a ticket - it is for the conductor to come through, not the other way around. That is an out and out lie by GWR. Many conductors in fact tell people off for knocking at the cab door, because they are doing "safety critical tasks" (e.g. reading the newspaper).

I also assume you provided them with your full and correct name and address, and journey details, when you spoke to the ticket inspectors at Patchway.

If you can provide us with the information I've asked for above, we can confirm the best way of proceeding.
 

aztec29

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As far as I can tell from National Rail Enquiries' information about Bedminster station, there are no ticket facilities whatsoever - no ticket office, no ticket machines and no permit to travel machine. Is this still up to date?

If yes, then you are likely to be legally in the right. But it does depend on a few factors.

First of all, how much time do you have at Bristol Temple Meads when you change there? If it is sufficient time that you might reasonably be expected to buy a ticket there whilst waiting for your connection (e.g. say 20 minutes), then failing to make use of ticketing facilities there, such as the staff who inevitably man the excess fares window/stand on the 'paid' side of the barriers, could be seen as meaning that you intended to avoid paying the fare.

However, if the connection is tight then there is certainly no obligation to risk a delay to your journey, just to buy a ticket. And neither is there any obligation to actively search out the conductor on-board if you need a ticket - it is for the conductor to come through, not the other way around. That is an out and out lie by GWR. Many conductors in fact tell people off for knocking at the cab door, because they are doing "safety critical tasks" (e.g. reading the newspaper).

I also assume you provided them with your full and correct name and address, and journey details, when you spoke to the ticket inspectors at Patchway.

If you can provide us with the information I've asked for above, we can confirm the best way of proceeding.
Yes, there are no ticket facilities at Bedminster.

The change is typically less than ten minutes - I think BMT to BRI is due in at 7:42, but typically arrives at around 7:44, and BMT to PWY leaves at 7:53.

I provided the inspector at Patchway with all of the correct details.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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OK, I would say that that is such an amount of time where you couldn't be expected to potentially delay your journey to buy a ticket. The minimum connection time at Bristol Temple Meads is 10 minutes, and the scheduled time in your itinerary is 11 minutes, so there isn't much leeway (and certainly not if you have to pass from one end of the station to another, as opposed to a cross-platform change).

I would respond back to GWR, pointing out that no offence whatsoever is made out and that you expect them to confirm that they do not propose to prosecute the matter.

But before you do that, does the letter mention any specific legislation under which they propose to prosecute you? Usually either Railway Byelaw 18, or Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is quoted. It might simply be easiest if you uploaded a copy of the letter(s) and email(s) (e.g. through Imgur), of course suitably redacted of any personally identifying names, addresses, reference numbers and so on.
 

Fawkes Cat

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I think @ForTheLoveOf's advice is good regarding the law - this is a case that you could win. But there is never a guarantee that you will win, so your next step depends on your appetite for risk and how much time and money you have to spare. If you don't want to take a risk and have the £85 or so to hand, the easy option is to pay up - this will make the problem go away, but at some cost to your wallet. If you don't want to pay £85 and have the time and nerve to argue the point, then you can do so - but while your case looks good, please note that we are nothing more than people interested in railways so we can't definitively tell you that you will win.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I think @ForTheLoveOf's advice is good regarding the law - this is a case that you could win. But there is never a guarantee that you will win, so your next step depends on your appetite for risk and how much time and money you have to spare. If you don't want to take a risk and have the £85 or so to hand, the easy option is to pay up - this will make the problem go away, but at some cost to your wallet. If you don't want to pay £85 and have the time and nerve to argue the point, then you can do so - but while your case looks good, please note that we are nothing more than people interested in railways so we can't definitively tell you that you will win.
I would say that this is the kind of case where certainly, provided it is apparent GWR is in the wrong (something that can hopefully be confirmed if the OP can provide the copies of the correspondence), at the very least an initial consultation with a criminal law solicitor would be warranted. Many will offer a free initial consultation to tell you roughly what your options are. It may be that, for example, they say that you have a good case and that they will agree to defend you in any proceedings, with their costs being paid by GWR or Central Funds.
 

aztec29

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But before you do that, does the letter mention any specific legislation under which they propose to prosecute you? Usually either Railway Byelaw 18, or Section 5(3)(a) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 is quoted. It might simply be easiest if you uploaded a copy of the letter(s) and email(s) (e.g. through Imgur), of course suitably redacted of any personally identifying names, addresses, reference numbers and so on.
Both of those actually, with an "and/or" between them.

I'll see if I can upload the letter, but might have to do it at home tonight. I can copy the emails in if it'd still be useful without the context of the letter.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Both of those actually, with an "and/or" between them.

I'll see if I can upload the letter, but might have to do it at home tonight. I can copy the emails in if it'd still be useful without the context of the letter.
Yes, even just the emails would be helpful. Was the letter asking for the fare plus £80 the first letter you received?
 

aztec29

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This is the letter I received:
20190313_095804_2.jpg
And this is the further correspondence:
In reply to your letter dated 21st February.

On the morning in question, I was unable to buy a ticket at Bedminster station as there is no ticket office or any machines there. I was also unable to buy a ticket on the train, since nobody came through to check or sell tickets.

I was surprised when I had my details taken by your inspector before leaving the station at Patchway, since on other occasions, and under the same circumstances, any staff present there have been happy to sell me a ticket for my journey if I have not been able to buy one before this point.

I'm willing to pay the cost of the ticket, which is £5 for a return ticket (and not £4.40 for a single, as I was given a zero fare ticket for my journey home). I'm not willing to pay anything further since I haven't committed an offence.
Thank you for your email.

I have reviewed the information you have provided and the amount to settle the case remains at £84.40. This offer is now available to you until Friday 22nd March 2019. I am sorry this is not the conclusion you were hoping for.

Your journey
I understand that you were not able to buy a ticket at Bedminster Station as there were no ticket purchasing facilities available to you; and that you had no choice but to board the train without a ticket. It was, however, your responsibility to find the Train Conductor as soon as you had boarded the train in order to pay the fare due, especially as you were travelling to another station without ticket purchasing facilities. Failing this, you also had the opportunity to buy a ticket at Bristol Temple Meads and on the train to Patchway, yet you did not do so. If our Inspector was not at Patchway upon your arrival, it is likely you would have left the station without payment of the fare due. This is in breach of railway law.

The fare due
As you had completed your journey without a valid ticket, we request the full anytime single fare for your journey from Bedminster to Patchway, without any concessions – this being £4.40. The report only refers to your outward journey and so we have applied the single fare accordingly.

How to pay
If you would like to accept our offer to settle the case out of Court, you can make a payment as follows:

•pay online with a credit or debit card at www.gwr.com/revenueprotection

•send a cheque/postal order payable to ‘Great Western Railway’ to the address below

Great Western Railways
Prosecutions Department
Vastern House
Trooper Potts Way
READING
RG1 8FP


Once payment is received by the 22nd March 2019, we will close the case and take no further action. If payment is not received by the due date, our costs will increase, and we will begin to prepare the matter for Court - this would be a last resort; we do always prefer to avoid this.

Where you can get more information
You can read our Revenue Protection & Prosecutions Policy in full at www.gwr.com/revenueprotection
 

ForTheLoveOf

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This is the letter I received:
View attachment 60316
And this is the further correspondence:
Thanks for that. Their correspondence is, of course, a load of absolute cobblers.

The first letter alleges that "not paying your fare is illegal under S5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act (1889) and/or Byelaw 18(1) of the Railway Byelaws". They could hardly misrepresent the law more badly. Failing to use available ticketing facilities at your boarding station is an offence under Byelaw 18(1), correct. But surely they themselves, being the station facilities operator of Bedminster, should be plenty aware that they have decided not to implement any ticketing facilities at that station, so they should be aware that Byelaw 18(3) renders their latter statement plainly false and inoperative.

They could perhaps be 'let off' for saying that Section 5(3) of RoRA applies, but they of course omit the crucial addition that failing to pay your fare, with intent to avoid payment thereof, is the offence, and merely boarding a train without a ticket is not an offence by itself under RoRA.

As to what you might like to say, how about this:
Dear Sir / Madam,

Unfortunately, my position remains unaltered and I do not propose in any way to agree to your out of Court settlement fee of £80. I remain more than happy to pay the fare owed of £5.00. Please let me know how you would like me to pay this.

There is no obligation whatsoever to seek out the conductor on-board the train, to avoid committing an offence. You have provided no evidence whatsoever for this incorrect assertion, and it is certainly not the case in law. Whilst there are of course ticketing facilities at Bristol Temple Meads, my journey sees me as being scheduled only to have 11 minutes to change trains at Bristol Temple Meads - only 1 minute more than the minimum connection time.

Furthermore, the train from Bedminster is often late upon arrival into Bristol Temple Meads, and of course the train doors on the service to Patchway may be closed up to 30 seconds prior to departure as per your policy. There would therefore be a considerable risk that I would miss my connection, and that therefore my journey would be delayed by over half an hour, if I were to wait in the excess fares queue to buy a ticket at Bristol Temple Meads. There is no certainly no obligation to risk a delay to my journey to buy a ticket, and again, you have provided no evidence whatsoever for this incorrect assertion.

It is clear that you do not correctly understand the obligations of the passenger and the train company. How you wish to give passengers the opportunity to pay their fare is your choice to make, but you are in no way permitted to cause inconvenience or delay to passengers - or indeed to subject them to a stressful procedure as you are doing here - because you have decided not to provide sufficient ticketing facilities en-route. The fact that my journey is from one station without ticketing facilities to another such station, is wholly irrelevant to any offence allegedly committed. Section 5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 requires that the passenger intends to avoid payment of his fare for an offence to be committed. If the train company does not provide any ticketing facilities, there is no way that this can possibly constitute intent to avoid payment of the fare.

I can therefore come to no other conclusion than that you have made a very serious error in taking my personal details and proposing a prosecution, perhaps because you are unaware of the circumstances of the matter. Now that you are aware of the circumstances of the matter, I anticipate that you will be able to confirm immediately that you do not propose any further action and that you will instead provide me with the details of how you would like the original fare of £5.00 to be paid.

Should you respond in any other manner I intend to engage legal counsel. In the very likely event of the matter being discontinued, or proceeding in my favour, I would seek to recover the costs of such counsel from you.

I await your response as stated above.

Yours faithfully,

[Name]

Obviously fill in your name, any reference numbers etc. and if you received the last email from a named contact rather than a generic "customer services" etc. then address them and change the end to "Yours sincerely".

I have to say, out of all of the cases that this forum sees, this is certainly one of the more egregious ones, certainly if they don't admit that they are in the wrong, and P.D.Q. at that. I would even go as far as to say that it might even be interpreted as fraudulent for them to misrepresent the law in the way they have, in the hope of netting £80 of profit. Of course, because GWR are a Government sanctioned corporation whom the DfT definitely doesn't want to annoy and put off operating the GWR route, there is no chance that the matter will ever proceed further than an accusation, unless of course you are willing to consider a private prosecution (£££). But that is a matter that can be considered further once the risk of prosecution against you has been dealt with.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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I suppose some people might also be wondering why you buy daily tickets from Bedminster to Patchway rather than a season ticket. The answer to that is quite simple - the Day Return costs £5.00, and the weekly season ticket £23.70. The saving that GWR generously apportions to loyal customers of theirs for commuting 5 days a week is a whole £1.30, or 5%. How very, very generous!

With that in mind, it may be that it isn't feasible for the OP to pay for a ticket for, say 5 weeks, in advance (which would likely be the cheapest ticket for a normal commuter who takes holiday and doesn't travel on a weekend), or that they simply don't commute sufficiently frequently for a season ticket to be worth it. Even a commute of just 4 days a week makes the season ticket not worthwhile, an indictment on its awful value for money.
 

aztec29

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As to what you might like to say, how about this:
Thanks, I appreciate your time on that. I'll send it across and let you know what happens.

It's good to know that I have a good case legally. It has been tempting to pay the £80 to make this go away, and I suspect many people do just that.
 

Bensonby

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I’ve never heard of it being your “duty” to seek out the conductor to purchase a ticket. I suspect that statement is a load of nonsense. However, is there anything anywhere written down to definitively rebut that assertion?
 

furlong

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Make it easy for them to close the matter - enclose a cheque for the £5 fare.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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Thanks, I appreciate your time on that. I'll send it across and let you know what happens.

It's good to know that I have a good case legally. It has been tempting to pay the £80 to make this go away, and I suspect many people do just that.
I agree, and that is what makes their correspondence potentially fraudulently misleading in my view. But that is by the by: it can be dealt with once the risk of prosecution against you has been eliminated.

I’ve never heard of it being your “duty” to seek out the conductor to purchase a ticket. I suspect that statement is a load of nonsense. However, is there anything anywhere written down to definitively rebut that assertion?
It's for GWR to prove their case in any prosecution. If they alleged there is such a duty, and that a failure to comply with it would constitute intent to avoid payment, then they could be put to strict proof of their assertion. They may wish to rely on Corbyn v Saunders [1978] 1 WLR 400, which is one of the few times where a railway-related prosecution has reached the upper Courts in relatively recent years (yes, 1978 counts as relatively recent in the legal system!). But Corbyn (not to be confused with the politician) was a case that bears few similarities with the circumstances the OP has described. The fact that Mr. Corbyn had been in the habit of what he was doing (i.e. he did it frequently and/or regularly) was influential when it was accepted he had intent to avoid payment of the fare.

A case like this could hardly be further removed from that. The railway hasn't provided any meaningfully accessible ticketing facilities. No ordinary "man on the Clapham omnibus" would risk a substantial delay by queuing for a ticket in the middle of his journey. And it is only one instance that has been recorded (at least, as far as we know), so it is much harder to establish that the OP intended to avoid payment of any fare through any kind of pattern.
 

furlong

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The closest you've got is an information box they added to the NRCoT (which most passengers have probably never read):
INFORMATION: This means that you should buy a ticket from the conductor on the train if there is one available; at an interchange station provided there is sufficient time before your connecting service; or, if neither of these is possible, at your destination.
 

d9009alycidon

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Reading this thread with interest and sought out the GWR policy for some background, I find it a bit vague, if they find you not in possession of a valid ticket they give you three options as to what they will do, but they do not specify any justification as to which option they would use in any given case.
 

furlong

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(If the conductor doesn't come through the train asking for fares, presumably that's because they are not 'available'.)
 

ForTheLoveOf

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The closest you've got is an information box they added to the NRCoT (which most passengers have probably never read):
Indeed - and the OP has followed those likely non-binding instructions anyway. Even if they hadn't, the NRCoT clearly doesn't have the capability to create an offence (or to make certain behaviour constitute one).

Reading this thread with interest and sought out the GWR policy for some background, I find it a bit vague, if they find you not in possession of a valid ticket they give you three options as to what they will do, but they do not specify any justification as to which option they would use in any given case.
I suspect the option chosen would depend on whether it is seen as that the passenger was genuinely clueless and didn't realise they were doing anything wrong, or whether it seemed as if they were 'up to no good' but it couldn't be proven, or if it was clearly provable that they were dodging the fare (e.g. through an admission). But I agree that the uncertainty about the consequences of ticketless travel (where it isn't permissible) is not at all helpful.
 

ForTheLoveOf

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(If the conductor doesn't come through the train asking for fares, presumably that's because they are not 'available'.)
...or perhaps because they are engaged in "safety critical duties" as we are so often reminded (such as texting on their phone reading the WONs)...
 

cuccir

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It's for GWR to prove their case in any prosecution. If they alleged there is such a duty, and that a failure to comply with it would constitute intent to avoid payment, then they could be put to strict proof of their assertion. They may wish to rely on Corbyn v Saunders [1978] 1 WLR 400, which is one of the few times where a railway-related prosecution has reached the upper Courts in relatively recent years (yes, 1978 counts as relatively recent in the legal system!). But Corbyn (not to be confused with the politician) was a case that bears few similarities with the circumstances the OP has described. The fact that Mr. Corbyn had been in the habit of what he was doing (i.e. he did it frequently and/or regularly) was influential when it was accepted he had intent to avoid payment of the fare.

A case like this could hardly be further removed from that. The railway hasn't provided any meaningfully accessible ticketing facilities. No ordinary "man on the Clapham omnibus" would risk a substantial delay by queuing for a ticket in the middle of his journey. And it is only one instance that has been recorded (at least, as far as we know), so it is much harder to establish that the OP intended to avoid payment of any fare through any kind of pattern.

Though trivia fans may want to note that the Corbyn in question is the politician's brother.

I see that Patchway has ticket buying facilities, including a ticket office and machines. Was the ticket office open at the time of your journey and/or do the machines sell tickets from other stations? If the answer to either question is yes, did you aztec29 pass them before speaking to the revenue inspectors? If the answers to that question is also yes, GWR may make a case that passing those ticket machines or office equated to passing an opportunity to buy a ticket for your journey - as ForTheLoveOf has stated, this relies on a precedent set in the case cited above ("Corbyn"). GWR's case would be strengthened if you were asked by the inspector at Patchway something along the lines of "Would you have purchased a ticket for travel today if I hadn't been here" and you answered something along the lines of "no".

As ForTheLoveOf also points out, there are weaknesses in using Corbyn as a precedent, particularly if (for example) the revenue inspectors were visible from the train or platform and you headed to them, presuming that they were selling tickets. But if GWR believe that they can use Corbyn, then this increases the chance that they will take this case to court and attempt a prosecution. In other words, it increases the risk (1) of having to go through the prosecution process, which is time consuming and potentially mentally draining; and (2), it increases the risk that the magistrates will agree with GWR and you would be found guilty of an offence.

To reiterate - I'm not saying that if the circumstances outlined in the main paragraph of this post are true that you would definitely be prosecuted, but it does in my opinion increase the risk levels both of a prosecution, and of a successful prosecution. Certainly, I think getting a free legal consultation would be beneficial in these circumstances.

I agree with all else that has been said; the legislation and advice to passengers creates no legal obligation to seek out a guard on-board, or delay a journey when connecting; even if the former might be useful to do if possible, it's not legally necessary.
 

ainsworth74

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Does Patchway have an open ticket office and if so did you pass it before you were stopped by Revenue Protection?
 

cuccir

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Patchway, like Bedminster, doesn't have any ticket buying facilities. I think this is reflected on GWR's website in that they're greyed out on the list (which seems slightly misleading anyway).

Ah then accept my apologies; what a misleading way of GWR in presenting the information!
 
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