Advice on tight connection at Wolverhampton on Lancaster to Reading

[Abteilung]

Hi there, my first post so please be gentle!
I'll be travelling from Lancaster to Reading on Monday April 19th 2010. I think the cheapest way is 2 advance tickets, only valid on particular trains, 2 different train companies. The connection at Wolverhampton is tight, 10 minutes, what happens to the validity of the 2nd ticket if I miss the connection? Can I still use it on a later train. How do I insure against this, I thought about buying both tickets through the 2nd rail company's (Cross Country) website.

I could go via London but I think this is more expensive.

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

Welcome to the forums! Some people can be awful, but I'll try to be nice!

The minimum connection time in Wolverhampton is 7 minutes.

As such, you are perfectly entitled to take the next available service to Reading if you miss your original train due to your first service arriving into Wolverhampton behind schedule.

Hope I helped!

 

[Lampshade]

Yes, welcome to the forum

If you miss the connection due to the train you arrive on being delayed, you are able to travel on the next available service. If you just happen to miss the train, you'll have to buy another ticket. Still, 10 minutes isn't too hard I wouldn't have thought, I've made tighter connections than that.

 

[royaloak]

it is not a through ticket, it is 2 separate tickets, IE 2 separate journeys, so if he misses the 2ND train tough because the contract with the first ticket ends at Wolves and as long as they get you there that's it.
It is the same as the bus or taxi being late, not the 2ND companies problem.
Haven't we done this before.

 

[Lampshade]

If that is the case, just pray the train arrives into Wolves on time.

Yorkie, you are being summoned

 

[Abteilung]

Wow, thanks for the quick replies, what an active forum!
Unfortunately I've got some contradiction in the replies though. My thought was that to protect myself I would buy the 2 tickets from Cross Country. OK, so 2 separate journeys, but if Virgin screwed up I could claim I'm a loyal customer of Cross Country and please allow me to travel on your (later) train.

 

[robert2000]

it doesnt take 10 minutes to walk to a different platform at wolves, u got plenty of time.

i make tighter connection at crewe wen i do chester-birmingham.

 

[yorkie]

Here we go again....

it is not a through ticket, it is 2 separate tickets, IE 2 separate journeys,

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/system/galleries/download/misc/NRCOC.pdf

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey and one of the following applies:
(a) they are both Zonal Tickets (unless special conditions prohibit their use);
(b) the train you are in calls at a station where you change from one
ticket to another; or
(c) one of the tickets is a Season Ticket (which for this purpose does not include
Season Tickets or travel passes issued on behalf of a passenger transport
executive or local authority) or a leisure travel pass, and the other ticket(s) is/are not.

so if he misses the 2ND train tough because the contract with the first ticket ends at Wolves and as long as they get you there that's it.
It is the same as the bus or taxi being late, not the 2ND companies problem.
Haven't we done this before.

Oh yes we have, many times.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

it doesnt take 10 minutes to walk to a different platform at wolves, u got plenty of time.

i make tighter connection at crewe wen i do chester-birmingham.

You wouldn't be saying that if you got the 1057 from Lancaster today, 30 late at Wolves...

The trains are both booked to use the same platform at Wolverhampton, the XC service follows the VT from Norton Bridge (VT due xx15, XC due xx18 ), overtaking is not going to happen though once you're past Stafford (VT passes 1220, XC departs 1225), if the connection was missed at Wolves it may be possible to make it at Birmingham New Street, as the XC is booked 5 mins there, but it won't be the same platform!

 

[Abteilung]

Thanks Yorkie for the prompt reply, I've actually now trawled through previous posts and the terms of carriage. Perhaps I should have done this before I posted so thanks for your patience. My interpretation is that condition 19 is meant to satify the users of a train where they split the tickets to get a cheaper fare and they don't get off the train, i.e. they could have bought a through fare at a higher price. However my situation appears to be different, as I'll be buying 2 separate restricted tickets on dedicated trains. The anytime connecting fare is £70, I'll be looking at advance fares totalling £32. So possibly I'll be at the mercy of the train manager of the 2nd service, however the conditions of the advance fare are interesting http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

It says "You must be at the departure station shown on your ticket in good time to catch the train. If you miss the first train on which you are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

If delays occur while travelling, you will be allowed to take the next available train(s) to complete your journey."

This could be interpreted that 2 advance fares count as one journey, but boy is it confusing!

An alternative is to go via London for £32 and pay an extra £13 to get me to Reading with no worries.

 

[yorkie]

From the ticket conditions:-
"If delays occur while
travelling, they will be
allowed to take the next
available train(s) to complete
their journey. "

That says you can complete your journey. It does not say you can only complete what's on the individual ticket.

Two or more tickets can constitute one journey.

It is clear that if you are delayed getting to your start station, you are liable, but if you are delayed "while travelling" then you can complete your journey. There is a huge difference between being stuck in traffic and being delayed "while travelling" on a train.

I contacted ATOC about this, their reply was that they would expect the tickets to be honoured.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

My interpretation is that condition 19 is meant to satify the users of a train where they split the tickets to get a cheaper fare and they don't get off the train, i.e. they could have bought a through fare at a higher price.

It's mainly for that purpose yes, because it's pretty obvious that if I buy a ticket from A to B, get off at B, and get a ticket from B to C and board at B then that's valid. But with some people claiming you had to physically get off and on the train (!!), a rule was needed to clarify that you didn't need to. Not only that, but there are some circumstances where the train does not even need to call (e.g. a season + non-season).

The main thing is that two or more tickets can constitute one journey, and you can "complete your journey" if you are delayed while travelling.

If anyone believes this is not crystal clear, then this applies:-

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999
Written contracts
7. - (1) A seller or supplier shall ensure that any written term of a contract is expressed in plain, intelligible language.
(2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail but this rule shall not apply in proceedings brought under regulation 12.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

(Regulation 12 is about injunctions to prevent continued use of unfair terms.)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

It is probably no secret that I disagree with Yorkie on this issue, not because I want it to be the case, but because I believe it is the case.

The NCoC is the conditions for each 'contract'/ticket supplemented by the specific conditions of the ticket in use. Lets read the introduction to the NCoC....

When you buy a ticket to travel on the National Rail Network you enter into a contract with the Train Companies whose trains you have the right to use. That agreement gives you the right to make the journey or journeys between the stations or within the zones shown on the ticket you have bought....

So ticket A-B is a contract with TOC1 and ticket B-C is a contract with TOC2. Condition 19 says you can use the tickets to travel from A-C via B, but it does not say that ticket A-B and ticket B-C become ticket A-C via B. TOC1 has no responsibility for ticket B-C and TOC2 has no responsibility for ticket A-B.

Now let us see that condition of use for the ticket again....

Passengers must be at the departure station shown on the ticket in good time to catch the train. If they miss the first train on which they are booked for any reason, a new ticket must be purchased.

So by buying the ticket, you agreed to be at the departure station as shown on the ticket in good time. It is not TOC2's problem that you are late because your 'contract' with them is for travel from B. It's not TOC1's problem if you have missed the train from B, because their contract with you is finished when you reached B.

So in basic terms, ticket A-B and ticket B-C are not the same contract, they are not ticket A-C via B.

Now I will re-iterate that this is my reading of the rules/conditions, and not that I agree or disagree with them, it may well be that a court of law will agree with Yorkie's PoV (if it ever gets that far), they may not, but that doesn't really help you when you are stuck in the middle of your 'journey' with no court of law in sight and are faced with TOC staff who agree with my reading of the situation.

 

[222007]

With both tickets being advanced ticket they are only valid for the trains they are booked on the restrictions are quite clear on this subject when bying the tickets. So if the connection at Wolverhampton is missed then im sorry its goodnight sweetheart this is what we were told in our training (im an RPI)

 

[tony_mac]

Why can't the railway companies just clear this up?
If they cause a delay then they should be responsible for it - what difference does it make to them if you get on the next train instead?

Why can't they just sell the through ticket anyway - it's not exactly rocket science to implement?

Crosscountry, for example, actually tell you to buy separate tickets for a single journey on their website; it does not come with a warning that you may be stranded.

I would also buy both tickets, at the same time, from the website of the TOC that is running the second service - they can't then deny all responsibility if they sold you the tickets in the first place.

 

[Ferret]

HHF, I'm of the same opinion as you where the legalities of such a situation are concerned. However, I've encountered said situation a few times and taken the common sense approach on each occasion, so long as the customer had left the minimum connection time at point B. Indeed, on one such occasion, the customer had contacted Customer Services at Station B who had then suitably endorsed his ticket for journey B-C on the next available train.
So, in conclusion, I'd say it's at the discretion of the TM on the 2nd service - he/she is entitled to charge you the full SOS fare but if you explained the situation, you'd probably be ok.

 

[cuccir]

Furthermore, and apologies from a newbie if this question has already come up, but what if you split a ticket across the same TOC? Or, to bring an example of a trip that I possibly could do:

If I bought an advanced for Durham - Leeds with TransPennine, travelled Leeds-Preston, then had an advanced with TransPennine for Preston - Barrow-in-Furness, but was delayed on my first train from Durham, would they honour the Preston - BiF train on the basis that it was their delay which resulted in me missing my train? Would there be any difference if my Durham - Leeds advanced had been with CrossCountry?

 

[OwlMan]

From the ticket conditions:-
"If delays occur while
travelling, they will be
allowed to take the next
available train(s) to complete
their journey. "

That says you can complete your journey. It does not say you can only complete what's on the individual ticket.

Two or more tickets can constitute one journey.

I agree with Yorkie that two or more advanced tickets can be combined to form one journey. If you are delayed on that journey then you are allowed to complete it on the next available train.

ATOC also confirm that two or more advanced tickets can be combined to form one journey on their best value fares website at http://www.bestvaluefares.co.uk/

From section about advanced tickets (my highlighting)

If you are able to plan ahead, Advance tickets can offer fantastic value for money. There are limited numbers of Advance tickets, so generally speaking, the earlier you book, the cheaper the ticket – with many tickets going on sale around 12 weeks in advance. Advance fares are usually for longer distance journeys and are sold as single fares, but can be mixed and matched with other Advance, Off-Peak or Anytime Single fares to get the best value tickets for your journey.

This confirms that advanced tickets can be mixed to make one journey.

Peter

 

[pemma]

I think the best course of action is to email CrossCountry customer relations, if they say 'No you have to buy a new ticket or pay an excess if you miss the train at Wolverhampton' then it's likely you'd be made to do that on the train. If they say 'Yes your ticket will be valid on the next service' then buy the tickets and print out the email and take it with you on the day.

I think if there's two separate tickets you probably may not be accepted on the next train if the next train is a peak train and the train on your ticket is for an off-peak train.

 

[royaloak]

Why can't the railway companies just clear this up?
If they cause a delay then they should be responsible for it - what difference does it make to them if you get on the next train instead?.

So why would Cross-country be responsible for a delay on a Virgin service? The railways are now separate companies all this talk of "the railway" is irrelevant, "the railway" went to the wall at privatisation!
If the first journey is delayed the responsibility is to get you to the destination, in this case Wolves, NCoC state "it is YOUR responsibility to get to your starting station in good time", so i read it (Yorkie doesn't) that YOU must get there as this is 2 separate journeys even if booked at the same time.

Why can't they just sell the through ticket anyway - it's not exactly rocket science to implement?

He can buy a through ticket, it is just more expensive, possible because the fare is set by a different TOC to the split tickets. Yes it is ridiculous and no I don't want to go there.

Cross-country, for example, actually tell you to buy separate tickets for a single journey on their website; it does not come with a warning that you may be stranded.

Take it up with Cross Country and let us know what the response is, you could ask about connections as well.

I would also buy both tickets, at the same time, from the website of the TOC that is running the second service - they can't then deny all responsibility if they sold you the tickets in the first place.

Not really relevant because I can buy separate tickets with a connection time in negative numbers, it is up to YOU to ensure you have sufficient time for the connection.
To answer the OP, if the first train is delayed then find the guard (or whatever they are called this week) and ASK them to endorse your ticket about the delay, although the guard on the second train is NOT obliged to carry you this should help, basically if you put a bit of effort in to help yourself then it can only be a good thing, or buy a through ticket and all these problems magically disappear.
I do agree with Yorkie (yes honestly) on one thing that the whole ticketing issue needs throwing in the bin and start again with a blank sheet of paper.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with Yorkie that two or more advanced tickets can be combined to form one journey. If you are delayed on that journey then you are allowed to complete it on the next available train.

ATOC also confirm that two or more advanced tickets can be combined to form one journey on their best value fares website at http://www.bestvaluefares.co.uk/


This confirms that advanced tickets can be mixed to make one journey.

Peter

it all depends on the definition of "journey", now lets say I consider a "journey" is from my starting point (work) and my destination (home), so in that case if I miss the last bus because the train is late do they get me a taxi, um nope its my problem, so I define a railway journey as what is written on the ticket, if I have 2 tickets then that is 2 journeys.
If you buy 2 tickets FOR THE SAME TRAIN, then you will still be on the original train so no issue, but if you have 2 seperate journeys on 2 different trains then that can be a problem, its all a question of interpretation and it needs sorting.

 

[Max]

So why would Cross-country be responsible for a delay on a Virgin service? The railways are now separate companies all this talk of "the railway" is irrelevant, "the railway" went to the wall at privatisation!
If the first journey is delayed the responsibility is to get you to the destination, in this case Wolves, NCoC state "it is YOUR responsibility to get to your starting station in good time", so i read it (Yorkie doesn't) that YOU must get there as this is 2 separate journeys even if booked at the same time.

:roll:

19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey...

Enough said really! I'm actually shocked as to how ridiculously anti-customer you are. To such an extent that you won't even read the conditions properly. Journey is defined clearly in the conditions and it is said clearly that you can use one or more tickets for one journey. I don't see how this could be any more clear cut.

 

[royaloak]

What is the definition of "ONE JOURNEY".

 

[attics26]

I can only state what happens at my station when I am on duty - if a passenger/customer is delayed on a valid connecting train I would provide authority to travel forward by what was a BR7000 and indeed might still be (a survivor from the past) or if insufficent time I would endorse ticket and try to advise guard/conductor/train manager on next service of my action and reason.
Where I differ from Yorkie is that I wouldnt do it (unless good reason, my decision) for starting/finishing journeys short, being off route or if deemed to be passenger/customers own fault.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

HHF, I'm of the same opinion as you where the legalities of such a situation are concerned. However, I've encountered said situation a few times and taken the common sense approach on each occasion, so long as the customer had left the minimum connection time at point B. Indeed, on one such occasion, the customer had contacted Customer Services at Station B who had then suitably endorsed his ticket for journey B-C on the next available train.
So, in conclusion, I'd say it's at the discretion of the TM on the 2nd service - he/she is entitled to charge you the full SOS fare but if you explained the situation, you'd probably be ok.

It should be common sense like you say, but the rules and conditions don't say that and so to advise on a popular forum like this, that it is fine, as if it were fact, is plain wrong, even if it is the most likely outcome. I'd love to say all TOC staff have common sense in abundance and the will to use it, and that all staff will accept responsibility in these circumstances even if their company doesn't, but that simply isn't true either.

Originally Posted by National Conditions of Carriage
19. Using a combination of tickets
You may use two or more tickets for one journey as long as together they cover the entire
journey...

Enough said really! I'm actually shocked as to how ridiculously anti-customer you are. To such an extent that you won't even read the conditions properly. Journey is defined clearly in the conditions and it is said clearly that you can use one or more tickets for one journey. I don't see how this could be any more clear cut.

If you read "as long as" as though it says "as if they are one ticket, provided that" then you have a point.

Out of Curiousity, where is "one journey" defined? It doesn't appear under "Definitions" in the NCoC thats for sure! Perhaps I have missed it somewhere?

 

[142094]

I'm not going to add further to what has been said about the NCoC etc, but in 2008 I travelled from Newcastle - Mallaig, changing at Edinburgh and Glasgow Queen Street. The NXEC was delayed out of Newcastle, so I missed the FSR connection at Edinburgh and therefore the Mallaig train. However the guys at Queen Street put me and around 5 other people into taxis to go to Mallaig and Oban (we cuaght the train up at Crainlarich). However they did not know what type of ticket I had (so therefore could have had seperate advance tickets) but still did this for me.

 

[Ferret]

It should be common sense like you say, but the rules and conditions don't say that and so to advise on a popular forum like this, that it is fine, as if it were fact, is plain wrong, even if it is the most likely outcome.

I've not said categorically that it's ok, I've just said what the most likely outcome is. It is up to the OP to make his own choice - I made it perfectly clear he runs the risk of being chinged for a new SOS. Tbh, the best move would be to not split the tickets but hey, that's up to him!

I'd love to say all TOC staff have common sense in abundance and the will to use it, and that all staff will accept responsibility in these circumstances even if their company doesn't, but that simply isn't true either.

Tell me about it

One final point though for deliberation - I keep seeing the words 'anti-customer' on here aimed at some posters, as if it's a slur on their character. In all frankness, it's the rules themselves that sometimes can be construed as anti-consumer - and quite often the staff have to follow them because that's their job! That doesn't make the person themself anti-consumer, more pro-remaining employed!!!

 

[Jim]

To be honest, it is unlikely that even if the connection (or move) did go down the pan, that with a little explanation the Train Manager would let you on the next available wouldn't let you on, no matter what the legal gibber!

One thing that I do if in doubt, is get the TM of the offending service to endorse your ticket....

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Originally Posted by hairyhandedfool
It should be common sense like you say, but the rules and conditions don't say that and so to advise on a popular forum like this, that it is fine, as if it were fact, is plain wrong, even if it is the most likely outcome.

I've not said categorically that it's ok, I've just said what the most likely outcome is. It is up to the OP to make his own choice - I made it perfectly clear he runs the risk of being chinged for a new SOS. Tbh, the best move would be to not split the tickets but hey, that's up to him!.....

Sorry, yes I understand that, the 'saying it's fact when it isn't' comment wasn't really aimed at you, just explaining why I have posted what I did previously, if you understand me.

 

[Ferret]

Ah yes HHF, I see what you mean!

 

[Greenback]

It should be common sense like you say, but the rules and conditions don't say that and so to advise on a popular forum like this, that it is fine, as if it were fact, is plain wrong, even if it is the most likely outcome. I'd love to say all TOC staff have common sense in abundance and the will to use it, and that all staff will accept responsibility in these circumstances even if their company doesn't, but that simply isn't true either.



If you read "as long as" as though it says "as if they are one ticket, provided that" then you have a point.

Out of Curiousity, where is "one journey" defined? It doesn't appear under "Definitions" in the NCoC thats for sure! Perhaps I have missed it somewhere?

Surely one journey is A-C via B to change trains (and tickets if splitting)?
For instance
A-C No fares via B, but the timings are more acceptable for my purposes. B connectional allowance is 10 minutes

A dep 1630
B arr 2015
dep 2038
C arr 2157

My journey is clearly A-C but is being undertaken via B due to personal choice as to route, perhaps because of nice scenery, or because the timings allow me to leave straight after work.

what if you split your advance tickets but you are on the same train? Can it be argued that's two jounreys, even though you never get off?

Incidentally, I would have advised that you would have to buy a new ticket before reading the previous threads on this subject. I have been convinced by Yorkie's cogent arguments and reasoning. One thing I do agree with, though, is that this point should be clarified once and for all by ATOC, so that everyone knows where they stand, customers and staff!

 

[hairyhandedfool]

That is your interpretation of the phrase, not a definition in terms of the NCoC, which is being quoted.

 

[Greenback]

A definition, or a clear statement from ATOC would resolve the issue. The trouble with the current situation is that we have to rely on individuals interpretations! Given the information that's been posted on here, I can;t really accept the logic of sying that one journey is actually tow journeys, just because I am doing the journey with two tickets rather than one!