Alexandra Dock Junction disused sidings

[387star]

There are disused sidings here with old wagons which have trees growing out of them ! Seems a shame to waste railway land like this

What was its former use and how long have the wagons been left there ?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Is this the Alexandra Dock Junction in Gwent (South Wales) near Newport?

 

[387star]

Is this the Alexandra Dock Junction in Gwent (South Wales) near Newport?

Yes

 

[Right Away]

There are 3 sidings that fan out in the space between the docks line and the yard itself that are filled with old wagons. These sidings were provided by Network Rail as a direct replacement for the Godfrey Road stabling point that was closed in 2006 to allow for the extension of platform 4 at Newport station. Intended for locomotive stabling, they saw little use as it was more economical to stable locomotives in the main part of the yard.

 

[oglord]

Is this the Alexandra Dock Junction in Gwent (South Wales) near Newport?

No, Gwent was abolished in 1996.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

No, Gwent was abolished in 1996.

I bow to your superior wisdom, sir!

P.S. What is the "Preserved County of Gwent" all about?

 

[oglord]

P.S. What is the "Preserved County of Gwent" all about?

A cheap and cheerful way of continuing Lords Lieutenant without bothering to return them back to their proper names and areas!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I bow to your superior wisdom, sir!

P.S. What is the "Preserved County of Gwent" all about?

I think we may have had this argument before but the county of Gwent has most definitely not been abolished.

It's the council that was abolished not the county. In fact the current county is slightly larger than it was when the council was abolished. Since 2002 it's taken in the former Rhymney Valley district which was previously a part of Mid Glamorgan. Gwent Police, the Aneurin Bevan Health Board and many sporting and voluntary bodies are co-terminus with the county.

Interestingly, the name Gwent pre-dated the name Monmouthshire by around a thousand years coming from Venta Silirium, the Latin name for Caerwent.

Much as Oglord might try to wish it away, Gwent was, is and will remain a county.

 

[Mordac]

I think we may have had this argument before but the county of Gwent has most definitely not been abolished.

It's the council that was abolished not the county. In fact the current county is slightly larger than it was when the council was abolished. Since 2002 it's taken in the former Rhymney Valley district which was previously a part of Mid Glamorgan. Gwent Police, the Aneurin Bevan Health Board and many sporting and voluntary bodies are co-terminus with the county.

Interestingly, the name Gwent pre-dated the name Monmouthshire by around a thousand years coming from Venta Silirium, the Latin name for Caerwent.

Much as Oglord might try to wish it away, Gwent was, is and will remain a county.

The much more interesting question is whether Glamorgan is still a county.

 

[oglord]

I think we may have had this argument before but the county of Gwent has most definitely not been abolished.

Yes it has. To quote the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, section 1, subsection 6:
"The counties which were created by this Act, as originally enacted, as counties in Wales, and the districts within them, shall cease to exist on 1st April 1996."
That could not be any clearer: The Local Government Act 1972 createth; the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, taketh away.

It's the council that was abolished not the county.

Not true. From the very next paragraph:
"The councils of the counties and districts mentioned in subsection (6) above shall cease to exist on 1st April 1996."
Which is to say that the councils of the abolished counties and districts are abolished too.

In fact the current county is slightly larger than it was when the council was abolished. Since 2002 it's taken in the former Rhymney Valley district which was previously a part of Mid Glamorgan. Gwent Police, the Aneurin Bevan Health Board and many sporting and voluntary bodies are co-terminus with the county.

There is no "current county'. You are referring to the "preserved county" which exists for precisely two functions: Lieutenancy and High Shreivalty.

Much as Oglord might try to wish it away, Gwent was, is and will remain a county.

It existed for the purposes of local government between 1974 and 1996. A "preserved county" was created in 1996, for the two aforementioned functions, which can and will be changed at any time. If you are in any doubt, consult the ONS Index of Place Names, which shows the actual county, current local authority area, and current lieutenancy area for any place. You will notice that there is nothing in the 'CTY15NM' column for any place that was administratively Gwent between 1974-1996.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

With apologies to the OP, I seem to have inadvertently sent this thread rapidly spiralling off topic.

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

Yes it has. To quote the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, section 1, subsection 6:
"The counties which were created by this Act, as originally enacted, as counties in Wales, and the districts within them, shall cease to exist on 1st April 1996."
That could not be any clearer: The Local Government Act 1972 createth; the Local Government (Wales) Act 1994, taketh away.

Not true. From the very next paragraph:
"The councils of the counties and districts mentioned in subsection (6) above shall cease to exist on 1st April 1996."
Which is to say that the councils of the abolished counties and districts are abolished too.

There is no "current county'. You are referring to the "preserved county" which exists for precisely two functions: Lieutenancy and High Shreivalty.

It existed for the purposes of local government between 1974 and 1996. A "preserved county" was created in 1996, for the two aforementioned functions, which can and will be changed at any time. If you are in any doubt, consult the ONS Index of Place Names, which shows the actual county, current local authority area, and current lieutenancy area for any place. You will notice that there is nothing in the 'CTY15NM' column for any place that was administratively Gwent between 1974-1996.

You can argue away all you want. A "preserved county" is what it says on the tin. It's a county and it's preserved. No amount of pedantry can alter the clear meaning of plain words.

Technically, the 1975 counties were abolished and then immediately replaced by the preserved counties. There were good legal reasons for doing it that way, chiefly to do with the county and district councils residual funds and legal obligations. No such provision was made for the thirteen counties abolished in 1974 which have gone and gone for good, how ever much you may long for them!

The borders of Gwent, Mid Glamorgan, South Glamorgan, Clwyd and Gwynedd were amended by the Preserved Counties (Amendment to Boundaries) (Wales) order 2003. Why bother amending the boundaries of counties if they didn't exist?

End of story.

 

[alistairlees]

With apologies to the OP, I seem to have inadvertently sent this thread rapidly spiralling off topic.

Er, yes. Best never to get into any definitions about towns, cities, counties or countries (or anything similar) on here, as there will almost instantly be flame war between opposing factions.

 

[oglord]

You can argue away all you want. A "preserved county" is what it says on the tin. It's a county and it's preserved. No amount of pedantry can alter the clear meaning of plain words.

No, it is a "preserved county", which was is defined as the area to which Lords Lieutenant and High Sheriffs are appointed, and nothing else! There are very clear words in the Local Government legislation which you are conveniently ignoring: created 1974, abolished 1996.

Technically, the 1975 counties were abolished and then immediately replaced by the preserved counties. There were good legal reasons for doing it that way, chiefly to do with the county and district councils residual funds and legal obligations.

That is completely not true. They are ceremonial areas only. Please read the legislation!

No such provision was made for the thirteen counties abolished in 1974 which have gone and gone for good, how ever much you may long for them!

Except that is not true either! What was abolished in 1974 was the administrative counties and county boroughs established in 1889. It is right there in the legislation. Please do read it. While you are at it please also look at the Index of Place Names like I posted, which clearly shows the ancient thirteen counties, local authority districts and Lieutenancy areas. All three are current, and used for different purposes.

The borders of Gwent, Mid Glamorgan, South Glamorgan, Clwyd and Gwynedd were amended by the Preserved Counties (Amendment to Boundaries) (Wales) order 2003. Why bother amending the boundaries of counties if they didn't exist?

They exist for the purposes of Lieutenancy and High Shrievalty only, as I have pointed out many times!

 

[Tomos y Tanc]

I don't want to go around the block on this too many times, although I do enjoy the debate! Let me assure Alistairlees this is not a "flame war". I suspect Oglord is enjoying this as much as I am!

I'm not denying Oglord's central point that the preserved counties legally exist for purposes of Lieutenancy and High Shrievalty only but (s)he misses my point that an adjective doesn't alter a noun.

A 'big county' is a county. A 'small county' is a county and a 'preserved county' is a county as well. There's no hyphon there. A black dog is a dog. A big house is a house. A preserved county is a county. Simple.

I'm very familiar with the legislation for reasons I won't go into. I don't need to re-read it to know what it was intended to do.

 

[DelW]

Edging the subject back towards railways, looking at old maps it's astonishing what a network of lines once existed south and east of Alexandra Dock Junction. As well as huge fans of (presumably) storage and interchange sidings, there were tracks extending not only everywhere around the newer docks, but right through the urban area all the way up the riverside to well beyond George Street.

This map shows the layout around the time of the Second World War:

View map: Ordnance Survey, Monmouthshire XXXIII.NE (includes: Dyffryn; Newport; Rogerstone.) - Ordnance Survey Six-inch England and Wales, 1842-1952

maps.nls.uk

 

[kaiser62]

That's pretty impressive. Just to satisfy my curiosity, what was the main traffic? I presume coal would have been at least some of it.

 

[Tom Quinne]

Coal was the 99% of the traffic down the western valley into the various yards which served the docks.

There where four yards around what is now AD until the 80s, all being closed from about 1960 onwards until MonBank closed in the early 80s.

 

[daodao]

I think we may have had this argument before but the county of Gwent has most definitely not been abolished.

It's the council that was abolished not the county. In fact the current county is slightly larger than it was when the council was abolished. Since 2002 it's taken in the former Rhymney Valley district which was previously a part of Mid Glamorgan. Gwent Police, the Aneurin Bevan Health Board and many sporting and voluntary bodies are co-terminus with the county. Interestingly, the name Gwent pre-dated the name Monmouthshire by around a thousand years coming from Venta Silirium, the Latin name for Caerwent.

Much as Oglord might try to wish it away, Gwent was, is and will remain a county.

Don't overlook the Royal Gwent Hospital, renamed as such in 1913 and informally known as "the Gwent". Sadly, it will lose its status as a major acute hospital when the new Grange University Hospital at Llanfrechfa opens fully in 2021. Returning to the railway theme, historically there were many dock lines and street railways (not just tramways) criss-crossing the southern part of Newport. There was a railway along the other side of Cardiff Road from "the Gwent"; the sunken roadway where it ran is still there and separated from the main road by railings.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

 

[Meerkat]

Don't overlook the Royal Gwent Hospital, renamed as such in 1913 and informally known as "the Gwent". Sadly, it will lose its status as a major acute hospital when the new Grange University Hospital at Llanfrechfa opens fully in 2021. Returning to the railway theme, historically there were many dock lines and street railways (not just tramways) criss-crossing the southern part of Newport. There was a railway along the other side of Cardiff Road from "the Gwent"; the sunken roadway where it ran is still there and separated from the main road by railings.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Another new hospital built miles from obvious centres of public transport.......sorry - off topic ranting!

 

[daodao]

Another new hospital built miles from obvious centres of public transport.......sorry - off topic ranting!

The Gwent was the exception when Wales had a lot of new "out of town" hospitals built in the 1970s. It is within walking distance of the town [now city] centre and only 20 minutes walk from the railway station. The bus stop shown in the linked photo in my previous post was quite handy and I used it on many occasions to catch joint municipal route 30 to Cardiff. However, building on the side of a hill was not without problems.

 

[Dr_Paul]

Er, yes. Best never to get into any definitions about towns, cities, counties or countries (or anything similar) on here, as there will almost instantly be flame war between opposing factions.

Indeed! And certainly don't mention those announcements at Waterloo of 'Ashford, Surrey'. Ashford is in Middlesex!

 

[alistairlees]

Don't overlook the Royal Gwent Hospital, renamed as such in 1913 and informally known as "the Gwent". Sadly, it will lose its status as a major acute hospital when the new Grange University Hospital at Llanfrechfa opens fully in 2021. Returning to the railway theme, historically there were many dock lines and street railways (not just tramways) criss-crossing the southern part of Newport. There was a railway along the other side of Cardiff Road from "the Gwent"; the sunken roadway where it ran is still there and separated from the main road by railings.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

You can see a picture on http://www.radyr.org.uk/clubs/rcts/