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All Eurostar services suspended

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HowardGWR

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I like the idea of building a couple of rail replacement ships!

I suspect that if things ever got so bad, it would likely be air used as a plan b. Far better geared up for large numbers of people and their luggage.

Hmm. We have had correspondence about RBSs but I don't imagine air carriers have a few jumbos lying around to look after Eurostar problems once of twice a year.

Back to the apparent queueing for the tunnel, I wonder if Eurotunnel are favouring their own traffic, perhaps egged on by police, dealing with the queues of HGVs on the motorway?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Update from BBC
There were fresh problems earlier when a power supply fault - unrelated to Saturday's lorry fire - meant the closure of the south tunnel.

Eurostar cancelled the 14:04, 15:31, 17:04, 18:04, 18:31 and the 20:04 (all times GMT) departures from London, as well as the 16:43 and 18:43 trains from Paris, and the 15:56, 17:56 and 18:56 services from Brussels.

Passengers were also warned to expect delays of up to two hours from the time they board a running service.

Meanwhile, Eurotunnel - which operates car and lorry services - said there was a four-hour wait to board shuttles in France.

Eurotunnel's services started running again during the night after "residue smoke" was cleared from a tunnel.

The company said it expected to operate a reduced Le Shuttle timetable, with two departures every two hours from both the UK and France. Customers have been advised to check in as normal.

So that explains a lot, what a disaster. :(
 
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jon0844

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I meant air stepping in for serious incidents, such as the tunnel closed for days. I doubt it would be that hard to charter planes or fit people on existing flights. Ferries then carry vehicles.
 

jon0844

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If UKIP get in, the current one is going to be filled in isn't it?!
 

johnnychips

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Well I managed to get on a ba flight from Brussels to London as I have to be at work tomorrow for E197 and then I thought, sod it, am just arriving Paddington on Heathrow Express.
 

brianthegiant

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If you've ever driven/fired a steam loco you'll understand that the fire is not wholly contained within the firebox - assumed you meant firebox! Clinker, sparks etc are emitted in considerable amounts from the grate and exhaust. Coal smoke is pretty noxious and when you consider the intensity of steam operations there once was through the Severn tunnel, one smouldering lorry would have been insignificant by comparison.

I think if you were to set fire to a truck in the Severn Tunnel there would also be some delays (especially post electrification).

Anyway, I'm still wondering why enclosed wagons for trucks aren't used. From the look of the Wagon structure, sheet steel or Alu could be welded to the existing frame. I suppose the main issue has to do with the increased piston effect of moving enclosed high top wagons through the tunnel.
 

185

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Shame it would be too expensive to dig a new tunnel under the chunnel :D

Get the Chinese to build Tube 4 - a 250mph single bore bidirectional high speed tube, free of slow freight and self-combusting road vehicles. 5 minutes thorugh - 15 trains an hour-ish.
 

Peter Mugridge

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Anyway, I'm still wondering why enclosed wagons for trucks aren't used. From the look of the Wagon structure, sheet steel or Alu could be welded to the existing frame. I suppose the main issue has to do with the increased piston effect of moving enclosed high top wagons through the tunnel.

If I remember rightly, the main issue behind the use of the lattice wagons is weight.

The piston effect was tested and found to be beneficial in these circumstances because with the Euroshuttles almost filling the tunnel the air within the wagon bodyshells tends to get carried along with the train reducing the immediate spread of fire. That doesn't mean it won't spread backwards - it will - it only means it won't spread backwards instantly.

No, I can't remember the reference for that - it was some years ago after the previous incidents ( I think this is now the 4th time although only 3 of them have had a lot of publicity; the other was very minor ).

I do agree that the lorry wagons need to be fully enclosed.

I am also wondering why the infra red detection systems at the termini didn't detect a smouldering load before the train entered the tunnel - given the short journey time against the time it takes for a smouldering fire to develop inside a confined area ( in this case a lorry trailer ) would not one expect a considerable infra red signature to have been present just 15 - 20 minutes before the smoke erupted everywhere?
 

duncanp

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I wonder if any of the people who had booked on one of the cancelled trains on Sunday afternoon were people who had rebooked because their train on Saturday was cancelled.

If I was them I would be pretty "annoyed" to put it politely.

Still it was a good thing to see Eurostar put on an extra train from London to Paris on Sunday morning which helped clear some of the backlog.
 

SpacePhoenix

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If two Eurostars were coupled together and they tried to run them like that would it overload the power supply (and by very much), an trip a breaker? (Would 2 Eurostars together as one train be more then what the power supply could handle)?
 

edwin_m

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If two Eurostars were coupled together and they tried to run them like that would it overload the power supply (and by very much), an trip a breaker? (Would 2 Eurostars together as one train be more then what the power supply could handle)?

Without really knowing I suspect the answer is no, as the 25kV system normally feeds long sections containing several trains so the feeders probably don't "know" that two of their trains are coupled together. Unless they do something different in the Tunnel to provide improved protection.

However I don't think Eurostars can run in multiple - each one is effectively two trains already - and there is probably some Tunnel safety reason why they wouldn't let them. For example if there was a need to evacuate there would be twice as many people to deal with as the safety case assumes, which would be particularly worrying if the other tunnel wasn't able to take a rescue train.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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They're reporting that the damage appears to be minor, but they still have to remove the incident train and repair anything they find. This could be difficult if the train is no longer able to move on its own wheels.
I suspect, as I posted above, that two thirds of the north tunnel is now open. But if this is so the complexities of this arrangement are probably lost on the average journo.

From what the BBC has said this morning, the north tunnel is closed because of flooding from the automatic sprinkler system and has to be pumped out.
This appears to be the first time the sprinkler system has been used.
Should be open Tuesday 20th apparently.
 

Mr_FIP

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I find it quite amazing that Euro-Star are unable to "think out of the box" -

They appear to have no strategy for such events - other than "Here is your money back - now please go away"

I wonder how full the Harwich-Hoek ferry was on Saturday night? Or indeed the day and night sailings on Sunday to/from Hoek?

And also it seems Euro-star have not even energy to put on a St Pancras to Ashford shuttle, then with Bus to Dover for sea Crossing to Calais, then another bus to Calais Ville for a Euro-star shuttle to Paris.

I wonder what Euro-Star would do if there was a dewirement on HS1 between Ashford and St Pancras?

Suspend the whole operation from the UK to/from Europe? Rather than instigate a Europe to Ashford service & then with a change to a classic train for the ride from Ashford to London Charing Cross.
 

flash

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I find it quite amazing that Euro-Star are unable to "think out of the box" -

They appear to have no strategy for such events - other than "Here is your money back - now please go away"

I wonder how full the Harwich-Hoek ferry was on Saturday night? Or indeed the day and night sailings on Sunday to/from Hoek?

And also it seems Euro-star have not even energy to put on a St Pancras to Ashford shuttle, then with Bus to Dover for sea Crossing to Calais, then another bus to Calais Ville for a Euro-star shuttle to Paris.

I wonder what Euro-Star would do if there was a dewirement on HS1 between Ashford and St Pancras?

Suspend the whole operation from the UK to/from Europe? Rather than instigate a Europe to Ashford service & then with a change to a classic train for the ride from Ashford to London Charing Cross.

I'm sure the ferry companies can deal with 10's of thousands of extra foot passengers - certainly considering that the average use is probably measured in the low hundreds.
 

45107

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I wonder how full the Harwich-Hoek ferry was on Saturday night? Or indeed the day and night sailings on Sunday to/from Hoek?

A lot quiter than normal in terms of foot passengers
(From observation travelling from Harwich Sat night, return Sun night)
 

jon0844

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They appear to have no strategy for such events - other than "Here is your money back - now please go away"

Same policy as some airlines. You've got some passengers who are already screwed and probably going to be heavily compensated, so you may as well not risk anyone else being delayed later on.
 

Bletchleyite

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Same policy as some airlines. You've got some passengers who are already screwed and probably going to be heavily compensated, so you may as well not risk anyone else being delayed later on.

It's a good idea to offer that because many will take it and indeed go away. But it doesn't absolve you from responsibility for people stranded who can't take it.

A good idea, which I *think* easyJet offered during the ash cloud, is to offer refunds to those whose flights have *not* been cancelled as well. That way you free up seats for those who *must* travel, i.e. those stranded away from home. And you might prevent some getting to their destination but not back.

Neil
 

Antman

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Reports that services have again been suspended due to a lineside fire in the Paris suburbs. There are suggestions that the track may have been damaged
 
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317666

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I caught the 19:13 from Paris to London last night, which in total ran about an hour late. Now that services have been suspended again I feel very lucky that I made it home! Credit to Eurostar for how they dealt with the situation - lots of updates from the train manager, free water in the buffet car and also free water and snacks upon arrival at St Pancras.
 

brianthegiant

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I am also wondering why the infra red detection systems at the termini didn't detect a smouldering load before the train entered the tunnel - given the short journey time against the time it takes for a smouldering fire to develop inside a confined area ( in this case a lorry trailer ) would not one expect a considerable infra red signature to have been present just 15 - 20 minutes before the smoke erupted everywhere?

I wasn't aware of this system, does it just have an automatic alarm if temperature is above a certain level, or do they have operators looking at thermal camera images for heat in unexpected places - I expect the latter to be much more likely to pick something up but obviously costly in staff time
 

starrymarkb

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I'm sure the ferry companies can deal with 10's of thousands of extra foot passengers - certainly considering that the average use is probably measured in the low hundreds.

I've seen it mentioned that the average foot passenger count is single digits per boat.
 

jon0844

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It was also said on here about the logistical issues with getting foot passengers on ferries these days.
 

Engineer

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CO detector alarm in North running tunnel caused by smoke raised safety alert, train ran onto water sprinkler area. OHLE PSU problem stated as issue, with South running tunnel. Media quite right to be appalled at the affect once again on so many customers. Infrastructure too fragile. Passengers on ski train from Moutier, ran back to Disneyland, hotel rooms allocated by 2200, asked to re-join train Sunday at 0740 for more endless waiting.
 

Peter Mugridge

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It was also said on here about the logistical issues with getting foot passengers on ferries these days.

The logical solution, if enough vehicles and internationally qualified drivers could be found, may be instead to hire coaches with priority for those who can prove they must travel. These coaches would then run Ashford - Calais Frethun, with rail shuttles connecting at either end.

Thus.... St Pancras - Ashford by train, coach via ferry to Calais, train to Paris. You'd only need 14 coaches of about 50 seats each to shift a whole Eurostar load of about 700 pax - the logitics of that with the ferry are much simpler.

So 14 coaches per trainload... 28 coaches per hour to keep the normal volume moving... probably four hours Ashford to Calais including loading / unloading and arranged priority boarding of the ferry... eight hour round trip; ferry crossing would count as rest time ( would it? ).... maximum of 224 coaches and drivers needing to be sourced... 112 each from UK and France...

It's not a paricularly large number of buses / coaches to source either given that you'd only need a few urgently and the rest over the next few hours and that you're talking about a very tourist-orientated part of both countries.



I wasn't aware of this system, does it just have an automatic alarm if temperature is above a certain level, or do they have operators looking at thermal camera images for heat in unexpected places - I expect the latter to be much more likely to pick something up but obviously costly in staff time

I don't know, but since they have infrared and CO2 detection at Frethun to help find potential illegal immigrants, I'd have expected the technology would find it even easier to detect fires as these generally tend to be hotter and produce more gas than a group of immigrants...?? Maybe they only have it installed at Frethun with only that purpose in mind, though?
 
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Murph

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I wasn't aware of this system, does it just have an automatic alarm if temperature is above a certain level, or do they have operators looking at thermal camera images for heat in unexpected places - I expect the latter to be much more likely to pick something up but obviously costly in staff time

From memory (happy to be corrected if I'm remembering wrongly), catalytic converters and diesel particulate filters that are in regen mode can easily hit 500C and higher. That would make it very difficult to distinguish between normal high temperature components and the beginnings of a fire. Equally, those very hot parts of the exhaust system can be the cause of a fire if something comes in contact with them before they cool, which is why most vehicles carry a warning in the handbook not to park on long dry grass, or otherwise park where combustable material can come in contact with the exhaust.
 

HowardGWR

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I assumed the price of the BA flight (E=€).

Thanks @BB. It was @JC's punctuation that threw me (as in " as I have to be at work tomorrow for E197"). I thought it must be some event, about which we should have been aware! :D

@Engineer seems to have inside knowledge. Does he know how long it will be yet - and what is the real hold up in that north section?
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I don't expect the immigration and security rules help with disruption.
It would be different if we were in Schengen, like sensible EU states.
People have to be processed and reprocessed and manifests ticked off, just like would happen if your flight was turned round en route.
The Daily Mail would be very upset if there was any hint of people able to take advantage of the disruption and get in/out without passports.
That might be the reason "return to starting station" is the policy.
 
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