All Line Rover [ALR] restrictions from 2 January 2011

[jon0844]

But, on the subject of using a ticket they're not entitled to, how is it ethical that in a free market such as the EU, somebody can be charged SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than a resident of another EU country? This goes against everything the EU stands for and is discrimination.

Interesting you say this, as today I wrote a story about the EC seeking to standardise mobile phone charges throughout the EU, and as such, have one single charge/tariff for the EU.

This would mean the networks would no longer be able to charge anything extra to make a call (and no charge for receiving one), send a text or use data within the EU. Pretty good news for us, bad for the phone networks.

It may not happen quickly, but sooner or later, we'll be seeking to have standardised pricing for travel in the EU (perhaps even season tickets/smart ticketing). The UK Government may drag its heels, ATOC may fight it, but it will happen. The question is, when?

Is everybody aware too that Eurostar charge much more for the same journeys from UK IP addresses?

Yes, this has been demonstrated many times. It's stupid - but not just a thing for Eurostar; it's common for airlines too. It's probably where they got the idea from.

I do believe/hope that at some point, a lot of the improvements in the UK railway industry will be forced upon us by Europe, as we've clearly shown how slow we are to do anything.

 

[Railjet]

Yes, this has been demonstrated many times. It's stupid - but not just a thing for Eurostar; it's common for airlines too. It's probably where they got the idea from.

Actually, most airlines stopped this practice several years ago, realising that it was becoming futile given the advance of the internet.

I think with Eurostar you'll also find that it's much less prevalent than it used to be.

 

[jon0844]

It needs to stop completely though! Good on the airlines for doing it though.

 

[Matt Taylor]

As far as I can see Condition 19 is straightforward, buy a single from KGX to Finsbury Park and continue northwards using an ALR without having to get off the train and you are within the NRCoC.

I don't really have any need to purchase an ALR so the above is my opinion from a ticket inspection perspective. But I fear that if Condition 19 ends up getting abused the former IC TOCs will simply put a blanket 'Not valid before 1000hrs from London' restriction on it.

 

[Zoe]

ATOC will likely then try and stop people using split tickets.

 

[jon0844]

But they're now making a bit of extra revenue from someone who has paid for a season ticket that now has restrictions imposed upon it! I hope they can't start making changes to the NrCOC or else one day we'll find ticket extensions disappear completely!

Why couldn't they have kept the ALR as it was, then offered a discounted ALR *with* restrictions (for purchase with railcards)... now that would have made more sense, or indeed an off-peak ALR ticket.

 

[Chapeltom]

ATOC will likely then try and stop people using split tickets.

How do they stop you splitting tickets? For some routes you must split tickets.

Take Chapel en le Frith to Formby - £12.60 return with a Y-P. I buy a CEF to MAN return, buy a MAN to FBY return at Manchester and board with that, saved 80p and I've split tickets.

 

[EltonRoad]

I think she means whilst using an ALR.

 

[Zoe]

How do they stop you splitting tickets? For some routes you must split tickets.

Take Chapel en le Frith to Formby - £12.60 return with a Y-P. I buy a CEF to MAN return, buy a MAN to FBY return at Manchester and board with that, saved 80p and I've split tickets.

In that case you are splitting tickets to save money. There is no "must" about it, you are choosing to split. It would just take a change to the conditions of carriage to say something like "You must alight from the train and may not reboard when you reach the destination on your ticket" to put a stop to that.

 

[EltonRoad]

But presumably virtually impossible to enforce. I always thought the reason ATOC actually allows split ticketing was because they couldn't stop people doing it.

 

[brompton rail]

Rather like the new condition on the ALR. HOW does XC etc STOP a passenger alighting at a particular station? Handcuffed to their seat? Yes, a penalty could be extracted if the passenger tries to LEAVE the station as their ticket might be considered invalid.

Example ... Leeds to BHM on either 06:00 or 06:15, alight at New Street (as does the TM). Join a LM or ATW train to Shrewsbury. How can XC PREVENT anyone doingvthat journey?

 

[jon0844]

One day the industry will get smartcard ticketing. It's a given. We may be last, but we WILL get it.

I wonder how ATOC is going to cope, especially with talk about moving towards airline style pricing and ticketing - when technology actually lends itself better for a move to something more akin to Oyster pay as you go, on a larger basis. You can then introduce price capping and other discounts for regular travellers, but with a total shake-up of ticketing as we know it today.

The ALR should remain as something that could be loaded on to a smartcard for unlimited use (as per any season ticekt), but I can see everything else changing. I just hope it's change for the best interest of the passenger, not ATOC!

 

[Zoe]

Example ... Leeds to BHM on either 06:00 or 06:15, alight at New Street (as does the TM). Join a LM or ATW train to Shrewsbury. How can XC PREVENT anyone doingvthat journey?

If when the tickets were checked on XC though they saw you had an ALR it's possible they would remember you if they saw you alightning from the train.

 

[jon0844]

Rather like the new condition on the ALR. HOW does XC etc STOP a passenger alighting at a particular station? Handcuffed to their seat? Yes, a penalty could be extracted if the passenger tries to LEAVE the station as their ticket might be considered invalid.

Is the 'offence' the alighting from the train or leaving the station? There might still be situations where you want to get off the train somewhere, then get another train.

Now the wording says alighting, so I guess it answers my question, but is that actually correct? Are they literally saying you can't get off, or that your ticket would be invalid if you went to leave?

I am thinking you might take EC and alight at Stevenage (which it says you can't) but you don't leave the station, you simply wait and get the first post-1000 FCC train into London from there. They run pretty frequently. (Edit: there's no restriction on FCC is there.. so you don't even need to wait)

If when the tickets were checked on XC though they saw you had an ALR it's possible they would remember you if they saw you alightning from the train.

And they get off the train to drag you back on? Or call the staff at the gateline somehow, yet you don't actually exit and simply get on another train from there. Do they now radio BTP and ask for the train to be stopped?

 

[brompton rail]

Agreed, as the TM changes at BHM all the ALR User would need to do would be to alight a couple of minutes after arrival..in any case, even if the Leeds TM saw you, what could he do? Physically stop you? Send for BTP (could be the next day before they arrived!).

No, the enforcement of the "new" rule is fraught with problems.

 

[jon0844]

I would have thought that the train staff (RPIs excluded) would not give a damn, and would probably think it's a stupid rule given a season ticket should have no restrictions. Actually RPIs would think the same probably too.

I'm all for a cheaper, more restricted, version of the ticket to sell alongside the top-level one - but ATOC is trying to change the whole concept of a season ticket here. If they get this change in now, they'll almost certainly add more to the list later, or change 1000 to 0930, further eroding the benefits.

I'm not one to automatically say 'if this happens, that will happen', but I think that IS the case here.

 

[John @ home]

ATOC will likely then try and stop people using split tickets.

It is by no means clear that ATOC would be allowed to do this.

A subsidiary of ATOC does own the copyright to the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, but that does not give them the right to make changes without permission.

For example, on 5 October 2005 15 NRCoC terms were revised at the insistence of the Office of Fair Trading following action by the London Borough of Camden's Trading Standards Department.

 

[Bill Badger]

If they get this change in now, they'll almost certainly add more to the list later, or change 1000 to 0930, further eroding the benefits.

Sorry to be pedantic but that would actually be a relaxation of what they are proposing, but I agree entirely with the sentiment

 

[jon0844]

D'oh - brain not switched on. You all know what I meant!

 

[nedchester]

Got this reply from David Map at ATOC

Thank you for your e-mail, dated the 9th December, on the subject of the All Line Rover to Michael Roberts, ATOC’s Chief Executive. Michael has asked me to reply on his behalf.



We are making a package of changes to the ALR in January, which we believe will better align it with its target market of leisure travellers.



To this end, child discounts will be increased to 50% in line with other rail products and Railcard discounts extended to holders of Family and Friends and HM Forces Railcard holders. These changes should make the ALR attractive to a wider leisure travel market and encourage families, in particular, to use the product.



We are also introducing weekday morning peak travel restrictions for journeys to/from London and Birmingham on some routes to address the problem of the ALR creating anomalies with Anytime fares for more frequent travellers. Whilst we accept that this may inconvenience some existing users, we do not believe that it will act as a significant deterrent to most potential users of the product. This key selling point of the ALR is that allows travel around the whole of the network and not specifically journeys to London, where attractively priced Advance and Off Peak fares already offer good value for leisure customers.



However, in recognition of this change, we have decided to freeze the price of the ALR in January and do not plan to review it again until January 2012. This means that the price will have been frozen for a period of least two and a half years.



We believe that the overall package of changes is fair and balanced and will result in a product that is more attractive to the leisure travel market. Please accept my thanks for taking the trouble to write to us with your views.

 

[MCR247]

Ha! Thats the reply I got

 

[Flying Snail]

I'm all for a cheaper, more restricted, version of the ticket to sell alongside the top-level one - but ATOC is trying to change the whole concept of a season ticket here. If they get this change in now, they'll almost certainly add more to the list later, or change 1000 to 0930, further eroding the benefits.

These changes have nothing to do with providing a cheaper ALR, it is all about stopping business travellers using them to dodge the otherwise unavoidable peak fares, especially those in first class.

There is a reason the long distance TOCs are willing to cart around 4 coaches of lightly used 1st class coaches all day, the small number of heavily used peak services packed with anytime first returns is a big part of their revenue.

Since Mr. Adonis' publicised jaunt I would bet that the tiny trickle of ALRs used by buisness passengers has increased and the TOCs are desperate to halt that particular "loophole".

I would love to see the numbers for ALR sales, outside of this now blocked use there really is a tiny niche market for them anyway. If you are going to intensively travel the network then they are just about good value but for non-enthusiasts? How many normals are going to travel enough over 7 or 14 days to justify the cost of an ALR? Even Britrail/Eurail passes are borderline value for money for many tourists and they are less than half the price of ALRs. It is the convenience of them over the alternatives of pre-booking advances for individual journeys and being restricted to particular trains/routes that adds value, this amendment is eroding that.

 

[radamfi]

What I'd like to know is who exactly is paying these impossibly expensive peak fares? Certainly in my company you would have to have a bloody good explanation for claiming £200+ on expenses for train tickets.

I suggest that everyone here boycotts long distance peak fares on principle and do whatever it takes to avoid them, e.g. stay overnight in London, go by coach, rearrange meetings etc.

I already try to organise meetings so that no one has to travel before 0930.

 

[Zoe]

The reason some peak fares are so high is that it allows the TOC to reduce overcrowding and make a bit of money at the same time out of the people that have no choice.

 

[radamfi]

I would love to see the numbers for ALR sales, outside of this now blocked use there really is a tiny niche market for them anyway. If you are going to intensively travel the network then they are just about good value but for non-enthusiasts? How many normals are going to travel enough over 7 or 14 days to justify the cost of an ALR? Even Britrail/Eurail passes are borderline value for money for many tourists and they are less than half the price of ALRs. It is the convenience of them over the alternatives of pre-booking advances for individual journeys and being restricted to particular trains/routes that adds value, this amendment is eroding that.

Enthusiasts should give up on Britain. Much better value on the continent.

 

[yorkie]

I'm surprised David Mapp didn't say that people should be at the theatre or buying CDs instead of using railways for leisure travel!

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/travel/news/article716012.ece

“Unlike season tickets, there is no economic justification for savers because they are being offered to customers who are using their income on a leisure journey rather than going to the theatre or buying CDs.”

So, is there an ecomonic justification for ALRs if they are "offered to customers who are using their income on a leisure journey rather than going to the theatre or buying CDs?"

Let's face it, if you aren't a regular commuter on an expensive season ticket, David Mapp really doesn't value you as a customer.

Would a top representative of any other industry say such a thing about their customers? I think not!!!

Anyone fancy challenging him on this point in a reply?

 

[Zoe]

The risk is that with any further fares simplication it could be the perfect excuse to withdrwa Savers.

 

[yorkie]

The risk is that with any further fares simplication it could be the perfect excuse to withdrwa Savers.

Savers (as they were at privatisation) are protected by law (to a limited extent; sadly the TOCs can get around the law by introducing draconian restrictions that are fare rises through the back door, but that's another story!).

However I am opposed to 'simplification' in any form that ATOC or the DfT dream up!

 

[Birdbrain]

The frustrating thing about this is that the ALR is meant to be a top end product. No restrictions, no time limits, any train, any distance. Putting these restrictions on just puts a stain on this really.

Why not introduce two tickets? I always thought that a 'Peak' and 'Off Peak' ALR was on the cards. With two prices this could make the 'Off Peak' ALR more affordable to a lot more 'leisure travellers' while the complete unrestricted product could be made available for those who want it.

No point me rambling on about it, I wont be affording one for years at this rate!

 

[Zoe]

Savers (as they were at privatisation) are protected by law (to a limited extent; sadly the TOCs can get around the law by introducing draconian restrictions that are fare rises through the back door, but that's another story!).

An interesting point here is that the Saver fare itself was not only protected but regulated at initially RPI - 1% then RPI + 1%. The availability of cheaper Super Saver tickets did not affect this. Since the so called simplification though TOCs have been able to reintroduce Supersavers at the old Saver rates and hike the Saver by 20%.