All Line Rover [ALR] restrictions from 2 January 2011

[Peter Mugridge]

It would just take a change to the conditions of carriage to say something like "You must alight from the train and may not reboard when you reach the destination on your ticket" to put a stop to that.

No it wouldn't, because surely the passenger would then be boarding on a different ticket ( the second sector ticket ) rather than re-boarding with the first ticket...?

 

[Paul Kelly]

An interesting point here is that the Saver fare itself was not only protected but regulated at initially RPI - 1% then RPI + 1%. The availability of cheaper Super Saver tickets did not affect this. Since the so called simplification though TOCs have been able to reintroduce Supersavers at the old Saver rates and hike the Saver by 20%.

But in a case like this what is now called the Super Off-Peak Return will still be regulated by the same rules as the saver would have been (e.g. they're not allowed to make it invalid on Fridays and so on). I do wonder how the Department for Transport can properly keep track of this though when the regulated fare is known by different names and ticket type codes on different flows. Somebody made a freedom of information request related to this with the answer that they have access to an industry computer system that they use to access the fares. It would be interesting to ask a follow-up question specifically with regard to the regulated fare being known by different names and with a different type across different flows and how they keep track of this.

 

[networkrail1]

There is a petition going if anyone is interested to sign it.

http://david37.epetitions.net/

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Just had a thought here: How would an ALR holder with a railcard be regarded in respect of the VT services under these restrictions given that VT allow any railcard holder to travel at any time without restriction?

Have I just opened a can of worms?

 

[Pumbaa]

Just had a thought here: How would an ALR holder with a railcard be regarded in respect of the VT services under these restrictions given that VT allow any railcard holder to travel at any time without restriction?

Have I just opened a can of worms?

Wouldn't change. That restriction code is different and applies to VT priced tickets only.

 

[Track Basher]

Also only applies on Saver Tickets or whatever this weeks name for them is.

 

[bnm]

The latest FGW Network Timetable (valid from 12th Dec 2010 until 21st May 2011) says this:

The All Line Rover allows unlimited travel on all scheduled National Rail services at any time...

My emphasis in bold

Having studied this publication carefully, there is nothing in it that says anything along the lines of "errors and omissions excepted" or "correct at time of going to press". So a possible defence under the 'Unfair Terms in Consumer Contract Regulations 1999' should any ALR user challenge the 'not before 1000' rule?

One to ponder. However, to quote Yorkie: IANAL.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

This is a very important message from ATOC passed on to me from a very well connected person about the suggested use of splitting the ALR with a one stop ticket and is posted here with his permission, please... everybody take heed of it and DO NOT try to use that trick to get round the restrictions:

It is counted under the National Conditions and this IS allowed. The problem is that ATOC have told me that if people do this then the only step left will be a total time restriction of, say, 1000 and that will kill it.

ATOC is aware of the Forum and are anxious as they don't want the rover killed off but are under pressure from some TOCs to prevent abuse - even if the 'abuse' is in fact legitimate.

So, there it is in black and white from ATOC. They are watching this forum and if people do try the splitting thing with the ALR then at the next fares revision there will very likely be a blanket 10.00 restriction on it on weekdays.

And I would imagine that challenging the partial 10.00 restriction rule might well have the same result.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

This is a very important message from ATOC passed on to me . . . .

. . . .

And I would imagine that challenging the partial 10.00 restriction rule might well have the same result.

Hold on a sec. Have I got this right?

The ALR is a product aimed at the leisure market, priced accordingly and with apropriate permissions for the leisure traveller.
The Season Ticket and many Anytime fares are designed for regular commuters and business users (as well as many casual travellers).

Some TOCs have been increasing the cost of daily commuting and business travel to the extent that it has now become cheaper for those commuters to use (or abuse) the leisure product (whose extensive permissions they don't actually need), rather than continue to pay for the specific journey on their route.

So, what is the TOC's response to this?
Is it to look at market forces and so reduce the cost of their commuter offerings to re-align them within the overall range of products?
Is it to look at market forces and increase capacity to meet demand?
No. They continue to increase the costs to commuters and busines travellers disproportionately and, wait for it, restrict the use of leisure product by its intended leisure travellers (who have nothing to do with the problem experienced in busy commuter services).

Just how much more do some TOCs want their credibility undermined?
Just how much further do they wish to drive passengers away from using rail travel?
They really are their own worst enemy at times!

 

[jon0844]

How is something that is allowed considered a trick?

What next; 'yes you can use an off-peak ticket, sir, but we'd really prefer you buy a peak rate one. If you continue to buy off-peak tickets to travel off-peak, we'll seek to make the whole day peak' ?

Actually, I really do hope ATOC reads this so they read the above and all the other ridiculous examples of why they're being so stupid and petty.

How about we make sure that more than ATOC read this? Get some of the mainstream media involved, and give the comparisons with ALRs in other countries to highlight how expensive we already are. It's a risk, in that it could prompt the ALR to be priced even higher, but that seems to be the plan anyway - so what has anyone got to lose?

If it's in the media spotlight, and the media sells it on the ticket allowing easy travel for leisure use (and not a way for a tiny minority of commuters - given that few people would commute if an ALR was the 'cheap' option) then ATOC would be shamed into doing the right thing. Well, it should be.

Given the increased pressure on the railway industry when the new price rises take effect in future years, I think that ATOC should be seeking support early on - as there will be a backlash when people face even bigger price increases in the future years.

 

[bengley]

Buy ALR, get on train regardless of restrictions, when asked for ticket, show inspector ALR, if he questions it (which I doubt), ignore him.

Job done.

 

[ainsworth74]

And should said inspector call the BTP to deal with passenger not having a valid ticket and being unwilling to attempt to remedy the situation?

 

[jon0844]

I wonder if ATOC is deliberately trying to get this rule 'through' and accepted by trying to get people in the know to keep quiet, in fear of what might happen if everyone finds out about ALRs.

I think that's a bad idea, and people should actually make quite a big deal of it.

If a big enough deal is made, people might actually question why it went up in price so much recently - and why we're being ripped off. Further restrictions just make it even worse, and perhaps we could get some common sense applied.

I've already said that ATOC could introduce a discounted version (perhaps at the old price) with restrictions applied, but there needs to be a 'top' one that has NO restrictions or conditions at all.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And should said inspector call the BTP to deal with passenger not having a valid ticket and being unwilling to attempt to remedy the situation?

Just take a copy of any document (valid for 2011) that says an ALR has no restrictions. Then tell BTP that you'll happily argue that in court. I am sure they won't get involved in a civil dispute if you have supporting documentation that makes no mention of something slipped into the T&Cs.

 

[theblackwatch]

Whilst ATOC may be reading this, I bet they don't answer any of the points raised. How many people are using the ticket for commuting purposes? How was this surveyed and how much has it increased by in the past few years? Is anybody going to answer with some figures?

(I think I know the answer to the last of those questions!)

 

[jon0844]

How many people commute and pay even the 'cheaper' ALR price? Even if everyone did the maths and worked out that an ALR was cheaper for their commute, it must be a small number of people (relatively speaking) and not a reason to stop everyone else benefiting from the ticket.

I'm assuming that anyone taking a week or fortnight off to travel would be hit by the restrictions, so there should be NO such restrictions. If it allows a few commuters to save money, so be it.. it's not a lot of money overall and no TOC is going to see a significant drop in revenue after it's all divided up.

Perhaps if you had a smartcard ticketing system, you could begin to allocate money from the ALR based on how it's actually used. I bet the TOCs would be quite happy to welcome passengers then!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I am not saying I am defending ATOC's position ( far from it - I consider the restriction vindictive ), but what I am saying is don't deal with it by open confrontation otherwise the ticket will be likely rendered totally useless a year from now.

Far better to make representations behind the scenes than to provoke things in this case.

 

[jon0844]

But isn't that what they want? They're saying this to get the current restrictions though, so why trust them to not do more next year?

Why should an ALR be kept secret anyway? Was it ever intended to be something that only a select group of enthusiasts knew about?

 

[Greenback]

Indeed, this is the thin end of the wedge. I must admit, I had a feeling that this would be similar to the Netowrk Card a few years ago, when it was claimed that the only way to save the railcard was to introduce a minimum fare and evening restrictions.

I don;t think that it is sufficient to merely make representations behind the scenes. ATOC and its greedy members need to know that this is a very unpopular move which will be fought.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Hold on a sec. Have I got this right?

The ALR is a product aimed at the leisure market, priced accordingly and with apropriate permissions for the leisure traveller.
The Season Ticket and many Anytime fares are designed for regular commuters and business users (as well as many casual travellers).

Some TOCs have been increasing the cost of daily commuting and business travel to the extent that it has now become cheaper for those commuters to use (or abuse) the leisure product (whose extensive permissions they don't actually need), rather than continue to pay for the specific journey on their route.

So, what is the TOC's response to this?
Is it to look at market forces and so reduce the cost of their commuter offerings to re-align them within the overall range of products?
Is it to look at market forces and increase capacity to meet demand?
No. They continue to increase the costs to commuters and busines travellers disproportionately and, wait for it, restrict the use of leisure product by its intended leisure travellers (who have nothing to do with the problem experienced in busy commuter services).

Just how much more do some TOCs want their credibility undermined?
Just how much further do they wish to drive passengers away from using rail travel?
They really are their own worst enemy at times!

That is absolutely spot on Dave!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

When I said "representations behind the scenes" I meant as opposed to actively trying to get round the restrictions by the ticket splitting on the train, or simply ignoring the restrictions. That's where the real risk of getting a blanket restriction lies.

I didn't say anything against starting a publicity campaign did I?









By the way; a mate of mine is pretty good at doing press releases...........

 

[Polarbear]

I'm sorry to say that I just see these restrictions as the first step in the eventual demise of the ALR. The fault wholly lies with TOC's & the stupid amounts they charge for peak hour travel in the UK.

The restrictions have been imposed as the TOC's think that they are losing revenue. It is true to say that compared to the cost of "Anytime" tickets on London flows, the ALR represented very good value if anyone had to make more than one journey per week. In that respect, the affected TOC's are probably right to say that they consider they aren't getting their fair share of revenue for what should be their highest yielding services.

I suspect the reality is that a small number of business people have previously taken advantage of the ALR's unrestricted availability. The obvious expectation of the TOC's that have imposed the restrictions is that these customers will automatically trade up & use "Anytime" tickets to make the same journeys, therby increasing revenue to the TOC's.

In reality, I expect a few will grumble & pay up. Others will use other modes of transport, or find alternatives to travelling, (if they were smart enough to use ALR's despite the absence of any serious advertising during the last 10-15 years, they're smart enough to work out ways around the new restrictions).

I think the restrictions will actually affect leisure travellers more, which in the longer term will kill the ticket. Yes, the primary market is that of leisure travellers, but the TOC's seem to forget that these are leisure travellers with a high level of disposable income. If I had that sort of disposable income available to spend on a leisure product, I would seriously consider taking my business elsewhere - why should I pay £650 for a product where my flexibility is restricted? Also, those same leisure travellers expect to travel across the UK sightseeing. If you suddenly restrict access to the primary tourist destination of the UK, you severly dent the appeal of the product!

I expect that over time, fewer people will buy the ticket & ATOC or some of the TOC's will eventually stop participating in the ALR. It would only take one or two TOC's to withdraw from the ALR to make it next to useless.

Another thought; have the TOC's actually produced any publicity regarding the ALR & more importantly, it's new restrictions.? I think that the restrictions will be nigh on impossible to enforce if they don't actually bother telling their "customers" about the restrictions. Certainly, if I was asked to pay again for a journey where I thought I had paid up front, I'd happily see the TOC responsible in court in the absence of any publicity..!!

One other point, and for me, this sums up the attitude of the TOC's to their "customers" these days. Many other business, noteably supermarkets, often have "loss leaders"; products that in themselves don't make money but entice customers to purchase other products that do make money. The rail companies seem to be shying away from this sort of policy, (on train catering being a case in point). The ALR should similarly be treated as a "loss leader" with regard to business traffic but the TOC's could find more proactive ways around it's use by business people. For example, why isn't there a weekly season between Manchester & London? Priced just below the cost of an ALR, this could be a potential honeypot of revenue to the rail companies, but no, we have to have the approach where a sledgehammer is used to crack the proverbial walnut.

Oh, and just one last question. Given the restrictions apply to peak hour services, could someone explain to me about the "wide range of tickets" that are supposidly available to cover journeys no longer available on the ALR? I may be missing something, but I was under the impression that TOC's don't offer a "wider range of tickets", due to the fact they're normally full...!! My experience is that a narrow (and usually expensive) range of fares are offered for such services.

Customers, no. Cash cow's, oh yes..! :roll:

 

[Greenback]

An excellent and eloquent post that mirrors my own feelings on the subject.

 

[Zoe]

At the end of the day I don't think you can blame a private company for doing everything it can to maximize revenue.

 

[jon0844]

I suggested they introduce an off-peak only ALR for a lot less money, but (and I know ATOC monitor this forum) I figure they're one step ahead of us.

Who would like to bet that in a year or two, they'll introduce more restrictions on this ticket and then introduce a new, totally unrestricted, version at a premium price.

In effect, without cutting the price at all (in fact, it will continue going up) they'll make this the off-peak/restricted version.

 

[nedchester]

At the end of the day I don't think you can blame a private company for doing everything it can to maximize revenue.

I despair at some peoples views sometimes.

 

[jon0844]

I despair at some peoples views sometimes.

Well, it is true I suppose!... but usually something called competition stops a business simply doing whatever it likes.

Competition stops the likes of Tesco deciding to charge £10 for a pint of milk, although you do have to hope they don't eventually force everyone else out of business or engage in any cartel practices to make such a thing happen.

For the railway, what's the alternative? There's no true competition, especially at the level of the ALR - and many people have no choice of operator on their daily commute either.

So, the rules MUST be different or else God help us all!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

I have been given to understand that now the morning peak restrictions are in place that the TOCs will in fact start advertising the ALR more from this spring.

Whether they will or not... we will see, we will see...



Meanwhile... Expect a sizable number of long distance business meetings to be moved back a couple of hours...

 

[Greenback]

At the end of the day I don't think you can blame a private company for doing everything it can to maximize revenue.

I don't blame them, it's wrong that the ALR was not protected. The point is that it;s questionable that revenue will increase as a result of the restrictions.

I suggested they introduce an off-peak only ALR for a lot less money, but (and I know ATOC monitor this forum) I figure they're one step ahead of us.

Who would like to bet that in a year or two, they'll introduce more restrictions on this ticket and then introduce a new, totally unrestricted, version at a premium price.

In effect, without cutting the price at all (in fact, it will continue going up) they'll make this the off-peak/restricted version.

Yes, that would be in line with fares simplification!

I have been given to understand that now the morning peak restrictions are in place that the TOCs will in fact start advertising the ALR more from this spring.

Whether they will or not... we will see, we will see...



Meanwhile... Expect a sizable number of long distance business meetings to be moved back a couple of hours...

Exacty why the TOC's will not gain any more revenue. Ways around the restrictions will be used, these loopholes will then be closed, which will result inevitably in what jonmorris has predicted.

The ALR should have been protected. Any TOC's wanting to milk the cash cows, er, sorry, business passengers, would have to rely on the ALR not being known about, as was the case until Adonis publicised it too much for their liking!

 

[barrykas]

Competition stops the likes of Tesco deciding to charge £10 for a pint of milk, although you do have to hope they don't eventually force everyone else out of business or engage in any cartel practices to make such a thing happen.

Didn't the OFT already "do" most of the supermarkets and dairies for engaging in price fixing on milk?

*checks*

In fact, the investigation's still ongoing, and due to report some time this year!

Can be found here on the OFT site.

Cheers,

Barry

 

[Pumbaa]

At the end of the day I don't think you can blame a private company for doing everything it can to maximize revenue.

This is true. But the railways should still be run as a public service, albeit in the hands of private firms as Governments seemingly are unable of running industries efficiently! Of course we're still not great at that, but one day maybe...

 

[jon0844]

Didn't the OFT already "do" most of the supermarkets and dairies for engaging in price fixing on milk?

Well that was a very good example for me to make then.

Perhaps I should now add;

"I don't think you can blame a private company for doing everything it can to maximize revenue."