All railway ticket offices in England to close?

[Pacerfan142]

If this is the plan then they'll have to get the ticket machines sorted first, as they are currently unusable (literally - when I used one I found some areas of the touchscreens so unresponsive that it wasn't possible to enter certain station names on the keyboard)

So true.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So true.

I find they mostly work. The Avanti ones are, however, terrible.

 

[Pacerfan142]

I find they mostly work. The Avanti ones are, however, terrible.

They work until you want to get a quick buy ticket.

 

[robert thomas]

They work until you want to get a quick buy ticket.

i.e when there is the usual long queue at the only ticket office window open

 

[tomuk]

the French Téletel system** would have suspected what the Internet would do before the mid-90s at least.

** A Viewdata based online service in France which was well ahead of its time and gave a significant insight into the future, but outside of niche stuff like bulletin board systems and the likes of Campus 2000 in education there was no idea such a thing might work in the UK.

What about the Prestel system in the UK? Not as successful as Minitel/Teletel but BT didn't give away thousands of access terminals like the French did.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about the Prestel system in the UK? Not as successful as Minitel/Teletel but BT didn't give away thousands of access terminals like the French did.

Part of Campus 2000 was built on Prestel - there were two bits - the interactive information service based on Prestel and the educational email service which was purely text based. It was indeed similar to Teletel but lacked reach due to the lack of terminals. Teletext did rather better here but obviously isn't interactive (though Sky briefly trialled a crude interactive form of it that used a phone keypad to control it, I think you could book holidays and similar - you'd be allocated a single page number to yourself and they changed what was transmitted on it as you went along). FWIW Teletel was the service and a Minitel was the home terminal, there were also larger terminals in some places e.g. post offices, I remember playing with them as a kid on holiday and thinking it was all quite cool.

But back to the thread I think there would be even more widespread use of the Internet here if we had had something like France with terminals in most homes.

 

[londonteacher]

In my opinion the most simple solution to all of this would be the following:
- close Ticket offices and deploy at least a member of staff at a station all the time that a train serves.
- to solve ticket purchasing ensure that TVMs are available at all stations. Ideally supporting card and cash payments with the full range of tickets. If cash is unsafe due to crime have a facility like a PERTIS (think that’s the name) on a TVM where a ticket is provided on the promise of payment at the first opportunity. Anyone found without a valid ticket, or authority to travel and means to pay provided with a penalty fare.
- full roll out of E-tickets to all stations with provision to collect a paper ticket via a TVM at no additional charge.
- expand contactless travel as payment and to accept railcard discounts on this.
- to aid people without internet or a smartphone allow tickets to be purchased at a post-office, library or other communal space for a surcharge to cover any additional charges.

 

[ex-railwayman]

In my opinion the most simple solution to all of this would be the following:

- to aid people without internet or a smartphone allow tickets to be purchased at a post-office, library or other communal space for a surcharge to cover any additional charges.

No good all day on Saturdays and Sundays as Library buildings (run by Councils) and Post Offices are closed, think again.....

 

[DelayRepay]

No good all day on Saturdays and Sundays as Library buildings (run by Councils) and Post Offices are closed, think again.....

My library and Post Office are open on Saturday. Problem is the Library is in the town centre so some people would need a rail ticket to get there. Quite a few Post Offices are open on Sundays now (where the Post Office is part of a local convenience store, they often offer Post Office facilities from the normal shop till).

You could sell simple tickets via newsagents who have PayPoint terminals but I doubt there'd be a huge demand.

You can already buy National Express coach tickets from the Post Office although I don't know anyone who has done so in practice.

I think a better idea would be to retain a ticket office or travel centre at major terminal and city stations, albeit smaller and perhaps with just one window. It may also be a good idea to have the biggest station within a small region to keep a ticket office open to act as a 'go to' place for people who no longer have a ticket office at their local outstation.

In practice I think this is what will happen, although in order to achieve the objective of closing all ticket offices this office may be re-branded as a Customer Service Centre or similar, taking on a broader role dealing with enquiries, lost property etc as well as occasional ticketing sales. And I can see the staff still being multi-skilled with other station staff rather than being dedicated to that specific role.

 

[davews]

Several post offices have closed around here, the nearest is a couple of miles away, much further than my station.

 

[py_megapixel]

There can't be that many places big enough to have a station with a ticket office open all day, but not big enough to have a post office somewhere in the same town open for similar hours that ticket office, surely? I suppose the difficulty is not ensuring there are enough post offices, but the fact that in most places they are nowhere near the station.

And I imagine there are stations with a ticket office which is only open for a few hours in the morning, which are too small to have a post office at all.

My main concern with selling tickets in post offices would be staff who don't know what they're doing, but that seems to be an issue anyway so it might not be much worse

 

[Bletchleyite]

No good all day on Saturdays and Sundays as Library buildings (run by Councils) and Post Offices are closed, think again.....

Post offices are now generally just services offered at convenience stores, and often keep quite long hours 7 days a week now.

 

[yorksrob]

Post offices are now generally just services offered at convenience stores, and often keep quite long hours 7 days a week now.

Wakefield has one in WH Smith now.

 

[Philip]

A lot of people speak of negative experience at booking offices, so what do people think are the possible reasons for the widespread poor service, compared with for example Aldi and M&S which tend to generate positive reviews for their customer service?

Are ticket office workers unfairly underpaid compared with their traincrew colleagues, leading to lower staff morale and even resentment; or are they overpaid as it is? Poor training? Could it possibly be the 'goldfish bowl' effect; staff behind glass creating an 'us and them' atmosphere between clerks and customers? In relation to the last point, do people find that the open travel centres at Euston, New Street and Piccadilly generally give better service?

 

[MattRat]

In practice I think this is what will happen, although in order to achieve the objective of closing all ticket offices this office may be re-branded as a Customer Service Centre or similar, taking on a broader role dealing with enquiries, lost property etc as well as occasional ticketing sales. And I can see the staff still being multi-skilled with other station staff rather than being dedicated to that specific role.

This got me thinking, what if train stations worked like fuel stations instead? Fuel stations have essentially become shops that also sell fuel, so ticket offices could become the same thing.

They'd keep the possibility of buying tickets, but get their actual money selling stuff to customers, and passengers win as they have better facilities where they get a drink or the local paper for their journey. Such an upgrade could also have a built in toilet.

 

[Trainbike46]

A lot of people speak of negative experience at booking offices, so what do people think are the possible reasons for the widespread poor service, compared with for example Aldi and M&S which tend to generate positive reviews for their customer service?

Are ticket office workers unfairly underpaid compared with their traincrew colleagues, leading to lower staff morale and even resentment; or are they overpaid as it is? Poor training? Or is it possibly the 'goldfish bowl' effect; staff behind glass creating an 'us and them' atmosphere between clerks and customers? In relation to the last point, do people find that the open travel centres at Euston, New Street and Piccadilly generally give better service?

I have good experiences at Greater Anglia ticket offices (specifically Liverpool Street and Cambridge), while very mixed experiences at Avanti's Euston ticket office (and all good experiences were with the same member of staff, so I think she's just really good). For Euston, part of the problem appears to be:
- Staff training, as many staff simply don't seem to be aware of what tickets they should be able to sell
- Ticket issuing devices/software that regularly throws up issues for unclear reasons
- A "computer says no" attitude among most staff, where if the ticket issuing devices/software give issues, they will just tell you to get lost, instead of trying to figure out why the computer said no, or suggest alternatives (or get someone to fix their terrible IT). Some staff will also get upset if you ask them why they can't sell you a ticket, and will go on a 10 minute rant about how only a manager could answer that question, but you cannot speak to a manager
- Insufficient briefing of staff. For example, for some of the periods when SailRail was suspended, the ticket office staff didn't know this, so if you asked for a SailRail ticket, they would just tell you the computer said no, and act like you were stupid to expect to be able to buy a ticket to Belfast anyway. conversely, staff weren't told when SailRail was available again, so the one capable member of staff was surprised when she was able to sell me a SailRail ticket.

While some of these issues are with the individual staff, most of these issues would dissappear if staff were supplied with proper, working IT, and were trained properly and briefed about what is going on. Greater Anglia appears to do that, making the experience much nicer and much more efficient than at Euston. So nowadays, if I need a ticket office I will go to a Greater Anglia one if possible

 

[Watershed]

A lot of people speak of negative experience at booking offices, so what do people think are the possible reasons for the widespread poor service, compared with for example Aldi and M&S which tend to generate positive reviews for their customer service?

Are ticket office workers unfairly underpaid compared with their traincrew colleagues, leading to lower staff morale and even resentment; or are they overpaid as it is? Poor training? Could it possibly be the 'goldfish bowl' effect; staff behind glass creating an 'us and them' atmosphere between clerks and customers? In relation to the last point, do people find that the open travel centres at Euston, New Street and Piccadilly generally give better service?

I think poor training is at the root of a lot of it. Ticket offices are not seen as opportunities to provide excellent customer service - they are seen as costs to be minimised.

The constant changes to systems and products, with little or no training/briefing typically being provided, hardly helps either.

Of course some of it is just down to individuals who are unmotivated and don't care, and with the relatively low pay which ticket office roles attract, there is always going to be an element of that.

 

[Ken H]

I think poor training is at the root of a lot of it. Ticket offices are not seen as opportunities to provide excellent customer service - they are seen as costs to be minimised.

The constant changes to systems and products, with little or no training/briefing typically being provided, hardly helps either.

Of course some of it is just down to individuals who are unmotivated and don't care, and with the relatively low pay which ticket office roles attract, there is always going to be an element of that.

Systems should say why they refuse to let the user do stuff. If necessary give a help function that gives a page of stuff to inform the user why he cant do it. programmers generally dont program that stuff because they know why its been refused. But businesses should not accept software thats not intuitive and informative.

 

[S&CLER]

This got me thinking, what if train stations worked like fuel stations instead? Fuel stations have essentially become shops that also sell fuel, so ticket offices could become the same thing.

They'd keep the possibility of buying tickets, but get their actual money selling stuff to customers, and passengers win as they have better facilities where they get a drink or the local paper for their journey. Such an upgrade could also have a built in toilet.

Wasn't that what MtoGo was intended to achieve?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasn't that what MtoGo was intended to achieve?

Mtogo is/was a bad convenience store and a bad ticket office. It's an idea I thought might work but it didn't.

A bank of TVMs and a small supermarket concession is far better. (For Liverpool Central, just a bank of TVMs, as there's a Sainsbury's Local right outside).

 

[mrd269697]

This got me thinking, what if train stations worked like fuel stations instead? Fuel stations have essentially become shops that also sell fuel, so ticket offices could become the same thing.

They'd keep the possibility of buying tickets, but get their actual money selling stuff to customers, and passengers win as they have better facilities where they get a drink or the local paper for their journey. Such an upgrade could also have a built in toilet.

They do this at Liverpool Central, Southport, Hamilton Square and Liverpool South Parkway. Used to be shops at Waterloo, Maghull and Hooton but these have all since closed.

 

[py_megapixel]

They do this at Liverpool Central, Southport, Hamilton Square and Liverpool South Parkway. Used to be shops at Waterloo, Maghull and Hooton but these have all since closed.

Not sure what the point really is at Central - isn't there a Sainsbury's and a Greggs just outside and a Lidl around the corner? For "food to go", Greggs will do everything better than a petrol-station-type setup, and for everything else, any of the supermarket brands are more than sufficient.

 

[Dr Day]

I think poor training is at the root of a lot of it. Ticket offices are not seen as opportunities to provide excellent customer service - they are seen as costs to be minimised.

The constant changes to systems and products, with little or no training/briefing typically being provided, hardly helps either.

It doesn't help either that many ticket offices are selling products derived by TOCs other than the one that employs them. Yes, there are national briefs to all retailers, but probably better communication regarding new products/restrictions/promotions and simply a better relationship between booking office staff and pricing staff within the same TOC. TOCs were (pre-Covid) generally more concerned about the revenue they brought in as a carrier rather than the commission they brought in as a retailer. The full cost of selling a ticket at a ticket office relative to the value earned by the TOC can be quite high, particularly in 'Regional' TOCs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Not sure what the point really is at Central - isn't there a Sainsbury's and a Greggs just outside and a Lidl around the corner? For "food to go", Greggs will do everything better than a petrol-station-type setup, and for everything else, any of the supermarket brands are more than sufficient.

There are stations (Aughton Park for one) where it might have worked as there's no local shop anywhere even vaguely nearby. But then this is a very car-dominated area (other than going to Liverpool) so people just drive to one, e.g. the large Co-op in the former pub near Town Green station.

 

[Philip]

What are the proposed weekly hours for the new station/ex-ticket office role? I keep hearing about plans to make it a 40-odd hour week, but would this be including the committed Sunday hours? So should the 'working week' (not including Sunday overtime) remain at 35 hours?

 

[Runningaround]

In my opinion the most simple solution to all of this would be the following:
- close Ticket offices and deploy at least a member of staff at a station all the time that a train serves.
- to solve ticket purchasing ensure that TVMs are available at all stations. Ideally supporting card and cash payments with the full range of tickets. If cash is unsafe due to crime have a facility like a PERTIS (think that’s the name) on a TVM where a ticket is provided on the promise of payment at the first opportunity. Anyone found without a valid ticket, or authority to travel and means to pay provided with a penalty fare.
- full roll out of E-tickets to all stations with provision to collect a paper ticket via a TVM at no additional charge.
- expand contactless travel as payment and to accept railcard discounts on this.
- to aid people without internet or a smartphone allow tickets to be purchased at a post-office, library or other communal space for a surcharge to cover any additional charges.

Will you be re-deploying staff booking office staff on all the Cambrian Coast Stations? I can see them standing at Tonfannau, Aberech and Dyfi Junction in all weathers waiting for the one passenger to turn up to possibly need a ticket. They won't even be putting TVM's on most of them.
Won't it be just as easy to put staff on trains in support of conductors with sales and customer service tasks. Doing what they do at a booking office but without threating passengers like an RPI.
And while we have online and on train sales when will LU provide those who cannot confidently buy CCT sized tickets within a week of travel an easy passage through their system?
Instead of restricting points of sale can't they increase them through newsagents, tourist information centres and post offices. The biggest barrier to allowing self service or outside sales is the complicated ticket restrictions that even staff with 30 years experience struggle to understand, what chance has an OAP after 50 years of driving and 5 minutes to spare at a TVM got?

 

[SynthD]

Would TVMs that accept permit-to-travel tickets as a start point help?

 

[D854_Tiger]

The reason Avanti are reducing the number of TVMs is because hardly anyone is using them, by the way! Nothing appalling about that.

Well I tried to use one last week to buy a six pound, turn up and go, cheap day return at Birmingham International and I have never encountered anything so unnecessarily complicated in my life.

Machine kept insisting on offering me various journey time options to select, outward and return, I was only going ten miles, just did my head in, gave up in the end and queued like everyone else seemed to be doing.

Of course, just one woman selling tickets so it took for ever.

I have a lifetime working in IT and have never ever been defeated by a ticket machine before (including Japan) well done Avanti.

The Sunday Times is reporting today that:

We will keep striking until we get a deal, warns RMT

Railway workers will continue to strike if the government does not meet their demands, the head of the RMT vowed today.The union is going ahead with strikes at

www.thetimes.co.uk

Unfortunately, the full artice is behind a paywall.

While electronic tickets have advantages for many, railway ticketing is currently so complicated that for journeys that are not straightforward, closing all ticket offices is fraught with problems. It also relies on having a working mobile phone with the ability to display the relevant ticket when travelling, unless it is intended to have a nationwide "contactless" ticketing system with electronic card readers at every station.

Comments?

It will never happen, the political fallout should see to that.

Too many who don't, or won't, use smartphones.

I personally hate them preferring my 5G compatible Nokia lookalike.

I used to have a smartphone but smashed it on the floor in frustration trying to pay for ******* car park ticket, it was a very sunny day and the screen was unreadable.

True story, a colleague went to New York armed only with a smartphone for banking, airline tickets and hotel reservations.

Arrives in baggage collection in NY and promptly dropped it one the floor, his whole life was on that phone, and now it was in bits.

Luckily he had some cards but he never did find out where he was supposed to be staying.

If this is the plan then they'll have to get the ticket machines sorted first, as they are currently unusable (literally - when I used one I found some areas of the touchscreens so unresponsive that it wasn't possible to enter certain station names on the keyboard)

The Avanti machine requires you to have a degree in Human Computer Interaction in order to understand it.

They design a ticket machine that's hopelessly complicated, then what do they do, they impose what seems like an eleven second timeout, at every stage, and if you don't respond back to the start screen.

I noticed the machine I was trying to use (and failing) looked very well worn, presumably from the natives giving it a good kicking in frustration.

 

[Philip]

To people wanting to see ticket purchasing becoming automated and digital and with the only human 'communication' being a Far Eastern-style helpline via a monitor (as I've seen suggested), do you not think this will remove a lot of the character and warmth of UK railway stations and just make train travel even more robotic?

 

[Bletchleyite]

To people wanting to see ticket purchasing becoming automated and digital and with the only human 'communication' being a Far Eastern-style helpline via a monitor (as I've seen suggested), do you not think this will remove a lot of the character and warmth of UK railway stations and just make train travel even more robotic?

I don't travel by train for "character and warmth", I travel by train to be taken from A to B at the times specified in the timetable at as low a price as possible given the required flexibility. I also want to be charged the correct fare without having to question it.

That is, no, those things you state are not in the slightest bit important to me. I don't travel by train for a chat.

FWIW I don't use ticket offices anyway, so their removal has no impact on me. I prefer to use online or a TVM as those channels won't argue with me about what I propose to do.