All railway ticket offices in England to close?

[HSTEd]

To people wanting to see ticket purchasing becoming automated and digital and with the only human 'communication' being a Far Eastern-style helpline via a monitor (as I've seen suggested), do you not think this will remove a lot of the character and warmth of UK railway stations and just make train travel even more robotic?

Ultimately we are (supposed to be) running a transport system here, not social services.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ultimately we are (supposed to be) running a transport system here, not social services.

FWIW I very much like the way SBB operates - "identikit" but practical stations and trains (but taking into account any genuinely meritous architecture) and mostly online and TVM based ticketing. It feels like a solid piece of public infrastructure that very effectively performs its role.

 

[mrd269697]

I think it’s inevitable all tickets will be digital in about a decade or so. There’s still a use for paper tickets in the meantime and it should be a gradual process. We have to adapt and modernize, that’s obvious.

What I would not agree with is unstaffing stations. Ticket offices may close, fair enough, but staff are a reassuring presence for lone women and anyone else who may be vulnerable, they can provide information to passengers, keep the place clean and tidy and update posters, change bins ect. No one should be laid off with this great plan of closure.

 

[MattRat]

To people wanting to see ticket purchasing becoming automated and digital and with the only human 'communication' being a Far Eastern-style helpline via a monitor (as I've seen suggested), do you not think this will remove a lot of the character and warmth of UK railway stations and just make train travel even more robotic?

I wouldn't say I want warmth. Personally, I just want a human on standby for when the automated system inevitably falls apart, because it's me and technology sometimes seems to have a vendetta against me.

 

[yorksrob]

It's a matter of customer service.

If a reasonable proportion of passengers prefer a staffed ticket office, them some should be retained.

 

[HST274]

I definitely believe they should be kept at big(ger) stations. Passed through New Street recently to see a queue of roughly 15 for the ticket office while 4 machines stood unused. Seen the same at other stations where five or so people might be queued for the ticket office whilst all three ticket machines are unused. Personally, no matter some people's opinions, it is clear a proportion of consumers (clearly a reasonable amount) prefer to buy from a ticket office over 'self service', whether that be tvm or phone app. That isn't to say no ticket offices should close, just those who are selling below a certain amount (bit like the dissolution of the monasteries. Though that resulted in all religious houses closing eventually...)

 

[yorkie]

I definitely believe they should be kept at big(ger) stations. Passed through New Street recently to see a queue of roughly 15 for the ticket office while 4 machines stood unused. Seen the same at other stations where five or so people might be queued for the ticket office whilst all three ticket machines are unused. Personally, no matter some people's opinions, it is clear a proportion of consumers (clearly a reasonable amount) prefer to buy from a ticket office over 'self service', whether that be tvm or phone app. That isn't to say no ticket offices should close, just those who are selling below a certain amount (bit like the dissolution of the monasteries. Though that resulted in all religious houses closing eventually...)

But some of these consumers may be purchasing products that are not available from machines. The last few times I used a ticket office, it's not because I wanted to!

 

[py_megapixel]

I definitely believe they should be kept at big(ger) stations. Passed through New Street recently to see a queue of roughly 15 for the ticket office while 4 machines stood unused. Seen the same at other stations where five or so people might be queued for the ticket office whilst all three ticket machines are unused. Personally, no matter some people's opinions, it is clear a proportion of consumers (clearly a reasonable amount) prefer to buy from a ticket office over 'self service', whether that be tvm or phone app. That isn't to say no ticket offices should close, just those who are selling below a certain amount (bit like the dissolution of the monasteries. Though that resulted in all religious houses closing eventually...)

I imagine that has something to do with the ticket machines at Birmingham New Street being the notoriously temperamental Avanti ones. At a station with machines that work properly, you'll find more people using them.

 

[David Goddard]

There are many types of ticket transaction which presently can not be performed by online platforms or self service machines, particularly those involving travel for disabled customers, particularly wheelchair users.
Online booking engines will not let you reserve wheelchair (or designated companion) spaces on the trains, plus they will not offer discounted tickets for wheelchair users. You therefore need the ability to buy these.

Take also reservations. My wife and I have now on three occasions made use of All Line Rovers, and for the longer journeys wished to reserve seats. We made a list of what we wanted, and the very helpful staff at Reading station booked them for us. There is no other way of doing this.

 

[Killingworth]

It would be intersting to know how many stations are never manned now, let alone have a ticket office. From recent experience there are some wide variations. Then the number that are only manned in the morning for commuters.

Some with quite large passenger numbers and frequent trains aren’t manned whereas some with fewer trains and relatively low passengee numbers are.

Passing through Fort Wliam last week the ticket office was closed and the TVM was out of action although many busier stations have no ticket office. One size doesn't fit all. The railway needs to attract new customers. In some places a manned ticket office may be desirable but a manned station able to assist on all matters at all times may be a more effective use of manpower.

 

[HST274]

I imagine that has something to do with the ticket machines at Birmingham New Street being the notoriously temperamental Avanti ones. At a station with machines that work properly, you'll find more people using them.

Perhaps though I have seen people queuing for a ticket office over the fairly reliable, unused wmr ones (card & cash).

But some of these consumers may be purchasing products that are not available from machines. The last few times I used a ticket office, it's not because I wanted to!

Maybe. I may be wrong but late afternoon in midweek is not the time most people will buy rovers or season tickets (or maybe I am wrong). Otherwise I suppose people might be queuing to make reservations or advances. Remember though, most people are just buying a return or single, but very few were using the machines. I people could have bought online...

There are many types of ticket transaction which presently can not be performed by online platforms or self service machines, particularly those involving travel for disabled customers, particularly wheelchair users.
Online booking engines will not let you reserve wheelchair (or designated companion) spaces on the trains, plus they will not offer discounted tickets for wheelchair users. You therefore need the ability to buy these.

Take also reservations. My wife and I have now on three occasions made use of All Line Rovers, and for the longer journeys wished to reserve seats. We made a list of what we wanted, and the very helpful staff at Reading station booked them for us. There is no other way of doing this.

This is of course true although in the queue of 15-20 people I saw no visibly disabled people.

 

[skyhigh]

Take also reservations. My wife and I have now on three occasions made use of All Line Rovers, and for the longer journeys wished to reserve seats. We made a list of what we wanted, and the very helpful staff at Reading station booked them for us. There is no other way of doing this.

Twitter, email and phone calls with the company are all other ways of getting seat reservations. CrossCountry offers reservations via text, TPE also offer WhatsApp as a method of contact.

No reason TVMs can't be adapted to provide seat reservations either.

 

[Techniquest]

I had to use the ticket office today, as I had to get cash out (issues with my card) and that was a world of its own problems. Anyway, I was buying a day ranger which cannot be bought online. It really is time this was changed, it is 2022 and TVMs are pretty clever. The software must surely be able to cope with it, and if not then I would hope it's a relatively easy thing to program in.

It felt weird using the ticket office, I must confess. I'm so used to walking straight through with an e-ticket or picking tickets up at the TVM. The only other time I used a machine was when I went to London a while back, and the TVM wouldn't let me collect my tickets. An issue with the entire TfW system, apparently, so as it couldn't be printed in the ticket office either I got authorisation to travel to Birmingham and collect my tickets there.

Would I miss the ticket office? Honestly? Not really. I fully realise a lot of people would miss it, but personally no. I buy exceptionally few rangers and rovers now, today was an unusual event, but I remain convinced it should be possible to roll this out nationwide.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see no reason why a TVM could not sell Rangers and Rovers from a separate menu.

 

[SynthD]

You could select your complex ticket on your phone, tap that on the TVM to transfer the request, then pay and receive printed tickets. I doubt I’d bother with that, however it solves some issues I’ve heard.

 

[Alex365Dash]

You could select your complex ticket on your phone, tap that on the TVM to transfer the request, then pay and receive printed tickets.

You could instead select your complex ticket on your phone or computer, pay, insert the card you used to pay with, enter a code on the TVM and receive printed tickets.

Since you can collect the ticket shortly before your train is due to depart, we could call it Ticket on Departure!

In all seriousness, the current situation regarding the purchase of Rovers and Rangers online and at TVMs is kind of silly - Southern found it easier to define their DaySave products as return tickets to properly enable Ticket on Departure to be used, when for all intents and purposes it’s essentially a day ranger which technically isn’t actually a ranger because it’s only sold three days in advance or at select Tourist Information Centres.

Oh, and then there’s SPT Roundabout tickets.

 

[778]

Is this going to effect station toilets in any way? Station toilets are usually only open when the ticket offices are open, so does this mean that the smaller stations toilets will be removed? I am sure this will not effect the toilets at the bigger stations.

 

[skyhigh]

Is this going to effect station toilets in any way? Station toilets are usually only open when the ticket offices are open, so does this mean that the smaller stations toilets will be removed? I am sure this will not effect the toilets at the bigger stations.

Nobody knows at this point

 

[Snow1964]

At my local station the ticket office is open mornings only.
A coffee wagon is parked outside the station entrance each weekday, but gets driven home
There are some virtually unused rooms in the station building
There is a single TVM near side gate which often has queues in afternoon for short periods (trains in both directions arrive roughly same time each hour)

You do kind of think some lateral thinking could provide a better service, as an example a counter where you could buy coffee with ticket selling point at other end, where one person could do both at quieter times etc.

Whilst don’t want to delay people buying a ticket when busy, having too much segregation means everything ends up closing as not viable at quieter times.

What is the thinking behind installing one TVM (on a station with 2 entrances, that are both open day and night), that cannot issue a full range of tickets. It is a half baked cheap solution that was obviously supposed to be a supplement to the ticket office, not a substitute for it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is this going to effect station toilets in any way? Station toilets are usually only open when the ticket offices are open, so does this mean that the smaller stations toilets will be removed? I am sure this will not effect the toilets at the bigger stations.

At very small stations perhaps, but anywhere with a gateline should be OK as the gateline staff would be there. Most very small stations with single shift booking offices don't have public toilets anyway, most of Merseyrail doesn't.

 

[Killingworth]

Is this going to effect station toilets in any way? Station toilets are usually only open when the ticket offices are open, so does this mean that the smaller stations toilets will be removed? I am sure this will not effect the toilets at the bigger stations.

Probably the most desired facilty at the 95% of stations that no longer have toilets. Long waits on small exposed platforms, but also an apparent dread of using toilets on trains. Nearby bushes and dark corners suffice for the desperate.

 

[Bread & cheese]

Sunday Telegraph story says 25 out of 30 EMR ticket offices to close.
Will the DfT be looking to close a similar proportion of offices on other lines?
Full story below.

Full steam ahead for railway station ticket office closures as ministers risk backlash
By Oliver Gill
The Sunday Telegraph - Business & Money
18 Sep 2022

MINISTERS are forging ahead with a swathe of railway ticket office closures, threatening to further inflame tensions with warring trade unions and risking a backlash from Conservative backbench MPs.

The Sunday Telegraph has learnt that Whitehall officials have “hardwired” ticket office closures into a new contract with East Midlands Railway, with sources saying the conditions will be replicated across the country.

Twenty-five out of 30 East Midland Railway ticket offices will be closed across the line’s more than 100 stations, according to industry sources.

The 83pc reduction is understood to be broadly in line with the Government’s “Industry Change Programmes” that will be rolled out across all of Britain’s railways by Anne-Marie Trevelyan, the new Transport Secretary, after being developed under predecessor Grant Shapps.

The cuts suggest that Britain could be left with only one in five of its railway ticket offices.

This risks sparking anger among backbench Conservatives, who fear less tech-savvy voters in their constituencies could be forced off the railways.

The Rail, Maritime and Transport workers union (RMT) has already vowed to oppose the ticket office cuts, launching a campaign in June to “cut profits, not our ticket offices”. The RMT and drivers’ union Aslef paused hostilities during the period of national mourning for Queen Elizabeth II.

But a fresh round of strikes are already on the cards with Aslef notifying train operators on Friday that they would walk out on Oct 1 and Oct 5. Britain’s railways continue to be a significant drain on the public finances after taxpayers spent more than £16bn propping up services during the pandemic.

Ticket office use has fallen from 34pc of transactions in 2012/13 to 12pc in 2021/22, according to government figures. Meanwhile, contactless payments accounted for 68pc of all national rail transactions.

A spokesman for the Department for Transport said: “No final decision has been taken on ticket offices.

“Station staff are vital for passengers’ safety and passengers will always benefit from face-to-face assistance at train stations.

“The reality is ticket offices have seen a significant decline in use over the last decade, and by making station staff more adaptable we will have a better railway for passengers and taxpayers.”

East Midlands Railway declined to comment.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/busines...lway-ticket-offices-ministers-plan-huge-cuts/

 

[Parallel]

I don’t see why they can’t keep open ticket offices that are profitable during their operating hours.

The government seems to love capital spend for projects and dislikes operating costs, even when operating costs are outweighed by the profit (or revenue returned). The government also loves press releases. Saying ‘new multi-million pound refurbishment of toilets at X station’ will always sound better than ‘toilets at ‘x’ station have been kept clean and in good working order for 10 years’… (used as an example of capital vs operating)

(I’m not for all ticket offices remaining open BTW, but just think detailed consideration should be given).

 

[Dr Hoo]

I don’t see why they can’t keep open ticket offices that are profitable during their operating hours.

How are you measuring or defining 'profitable'?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the main reason for selling tickets is to contribute to the cost of operating the (network and) train rather than purely the cost of the retail transaction.

(Even back to the 1970s I can think of staffed stations where revenue didn't even cover the cost of weekly vandalism around the station, let alone station staff or train costs.)

 

[Watershed]

How are you measuring or defining 'profitable'?

At the risk of stating the obvious, the main reason for selling tickets is to contribute to the cost of operating the (network and) train rather than purely the cost of the retail transaction.

(Even back to the 1970s I can think of staffed stations where revenue didn't even cover the cost of weekly vandalism around the station, let alone station staff or train costs.)

Indeed. It's also worthwhile questioning how much revenue would be lost (either from people not paying, or deciding not to travel) if ticket offices closed.

I foresee railway ticket offices going the same way as airline ticket offices - becoming much less numerous and generally only being used when there is disruption.

 

[miklcct]

Probably the most desired facilty at the 95% of stations that no longer have toilets. Long waits on small exposed platforms, but also an apparent dread of using toilets on trains. Nearby bushes and dark corners suffice for the desperate.

I hope that all urban stations can have toilets installed such that on-board toilets can be removed in order to increase capacity. When the lines are maxing out their capacity having a train every 3 minutes or less why don't just tell those to get off the train to use a toilet?

 

[tomuk]

I hope that all urban stations can have toilets installed such that on-board toilets can be removed in order to increase capacity. When the lines are maxing out their capacity having a train every 3 minutes or less why don't just tell those to get off the train to use a toilet?

Because unfortunately anything at a station that isn't nuclear bomb proof or watched 24 hrs by a security guard is likely to be vandalised and destroyed in short order.

 

[Trainbike46]

I hope that all urban stations can have toilets installed such that on-board toilets can be removed in order to increase capacity. When the lines are maxing out their capacity having a train every 3 minutes or less why don't just tell those to get off the train to use a toilet?

and, large parts of the network don't have a train every three minutes. For long, limited stop services having a toilet on board is essential. And if the train gets stuck somewhere, having a toilet on board can be a godsend

 

[willgreen]

When the lines are maxing out their capacity having a train every 3 minutes or less why don't just tell those to get off the train to use a toilet?

How many lines does this apply to?

 

[Philip]

To continue the discussion in a more appropriate thread; I can only speak from experience that disruption tends to push people, who would normally book their tickets online, to the ticket office for help. I have worked at two busy stations and this has always been the case at both of them and remains so even today. I have spoken to many people (some young and fit) who consider the ticket office an essential point for help with journey enquiries, ticket queries and disruption. I worked during the evenings of Storms Doris and Eunice and we were inundated with passengers asking for help and what to do with nearly all services being cancelled, what would these passengers have done if the ticket office and its staff hadn't been there?

I think you can deduce from this that many passengers do not consider 'online' as more useful in these circumstances and that closing all booking offices would be unhelpful for passengers. People mention about having booking office staff outside roaming the station and while I think it would be a more efficient system to have staff going outside at times to offer assistance, it would be impractical and unsafe to have staff permanently outside and selling their tickets on the platform with cash on them. Supermarket checkout staff process transactions at the checkout, not down the aisles, so I don't see why ticket office staff should be moved away from the office and desk for their transactions, particularly at stations without a BTP presence.