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All railway ticket offices in England to close?

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Watershed

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In the medium term (say 2-3 years) it's certainly an achievable goal. But implementing it in September is far too soon; TVMs would have to be upgraded to give them a "staff mode" like what LU TVMs have. Rangers, rovers and PTE products would have to be sold at ticket machines and online. And quite a lot more ticket machines would need to be installed.

Whilst a lot of people do use mobile ticketing, Avanti have dropped a right clanger by reducing the number of TVMs as part of their replacement programme. Quite major stations are left with only 2 TVMs and even Euston just has 5 IIRC. That might be fine at the quietest times but it's of no use when there is a long queue for buying or collecting tickets, forcing people to miss their train.

I think letting this leak may be more of a negotiating tactic than anything else.
 
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Starmill

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You can't pay on board on most UK train services now. Penalty Fares cover most of the network except the most rural bits.
To be fair this isn't really true. For example there are a number of stations such as Bloxwich and Flowery Field where there's no ticket machine long term because they were repeatedly vandalised.
 

Watershed

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Moving everything to e-tickets solves that, you can cancel an e-ticket without needing the physical ticket back.

(I don't mean "you must buy online", I mean even TVMs would issue barcoded e-tickets rather than magstripe tickets - you could even allow the TVM to refund them if you fitted a scanner!)
Exactly, that's the kind of upgrade that is needed to allow ticket office closures to have less impact. But at the moment there is no movement in this direction or even a proposal for it.

So if ticket offices close as things stand, people will have to go through the rigmarole of contacting Customer Services if they want a refund due to the train being cancelled, for instance. Rather than being able to go to the ticket office and having the sale voided.
 

crablab

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How will you buy a CIV ticket? Or a platform ticket :)

Good idea in principle, but I think in order to actually work the ticketing system would need to be reformed to Chipkaart style operation where people just tap in & tap out, or scan their pre-booked ticket, at barriers. The current system is far too complex for customers to navigate themselves.

So first you need to make ticket offices redundant by having a ticketing system that is straightforward and usable. Then it's possible to reduce the ticket offices to dealing with complex ticketing queries and smartcard issues, rather than day to day retailing.
 

bicbasher

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A few years ago I couldn't see a viable option for closing my local ticket office but whenever I go past, there's only one ticket clerk who isn't serving many passengers at all, while most people are using the TVMs. It's not helped that period travelcards inside London can only be sold on Oyster and Contactless with travelcard capping has made it easier to not even use a TVM in the first place. My station is operated by London Overground which lost their Oyster ticket office facility when they upgraded the ticketing terminals which will have also lost custom to the ticket office.

But I will miss being able to speak to a clerk to get the best ticket to a destination outside the capital or being able to use a Rail Travel Voucher.
 

Sm5

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I predict hours of media coverage and much hardship from outside the mainstream commuter passengers… fringes like families, age/economic/mobility based railcard travellers, international travellers etc.

I know myself, a phone based ticket will be a dis-incentive.. I dont trust my phone to have sufficient charge for a full day, given the volume of activity I use it for… if its that or nothing, my travel habits will change…

That said I did a family trip to St Albans last week, from South London, and even with the family railcard/groupsave the combination of poor connections and cost made it faster and cheaper by car.

Connecting in London is deteriorating fast, and what was once 5-10 connections is increasingly becoming 20 minutes, especially later in the evenings, indeed work socials mid-week in London are becoming harder too, my last train used to arrive back around 0100, now its 2330… I cant even stay last orders unless I want to goto East Croydon and join the crowds looking for taxis the burbs.

I get cost cuts, but making it harder for the customer will mean a cycle of cuts as each one disincentives passengers further from travelling… in my case poor railways is hurting retail trade in London as I or colleagues cannot do late business socials there any more… we spend less, end early… and if the risk of a flat phone stops me getting home, then it only pushes me away further (at least if i’m not in a tfl oyster zone on some occasions).
 

JonathanH

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The ticketing system needs some upgrades if it is to retail all tickets on line.

Rangers, rovers and PTE products would have to be sold at ticket machines and online.
Why could it not just be government policy to remove 'complicated' ticket types from sale?

(I'm not saying I want that but many want simplification and they generally are niche products and it would be a facilitative move towards making it possible to close ticket offices if everything was simpler - eg just singles and returns, then ultimately just two types of single ticket)
 
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thenorthern

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It was inevitable to that they would one day all close but I assume the staff will be redirected elsewhere as too many people can't/don't know how to use ticket machines unaided.
 

stuartl

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How would you buy a senior railcard if there's no ticket office ? To buy online you have to have a driving licence, identity card or passport as proof of age, at ticket offices you can use a bus pass. So if you have none of these then no railcard.
 

Fuzzytop

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And encouraging that sort of usage means people are on and around stations, reducing petty crime. The aim should indeed be to let out or sell as many as possible, not leave them derelict.

Moving everything to e-tickets solves that, you can cancel an e-ticket without needing the physical ticket back.

+1 to both points.

Sadly, formal ticket offices in all but the largest stations are an anachronism. That's in no way a reflection of the many excellent staff who work in them.

I would say the situation next week makes their inevitable closure far more palatable amongst the public, and so is the best time to start making plans such as a push to e-tickets. With a timeline in place to erode the cases where a ticket office is the only place to help - first to make other means available, and then to remove the ability of the ticket office to help, almost full closure could be achieved in the next few years.
 

bicbasher

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How would you buy a senior railcard if there's no ticket office ? To buy online you have to have a driving licence, identity card or passport as proof of age, at ticket offices you can use a bus pass. So if you have none of these then no railcard.
They'll probably be asked to take a photo or scan their ID instead.
 

Bletchleyite

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Exactly, that's the kind of upgrade that is needed to allow ticket office closures to have less impact. But at the moment there is no movement in this direction or even a proposal for it.

So if ticket offices close as things stand, people will have to go through the rigmarole of contacting Customer Services if they want a refund due to the train being cancelled, for instance. Rather than being able to go to the ticket office and having the sale voided.

Or they could choose to buy the ticket on their phone, which makes that process much easier. So these "nudges" may actually be desirable.

Why could it not just be government policy to remove 'complicated' ticket types from sale?

(I'm not saying I want that but many want simplification and they generally are niche products.)

PTE products aren't niche products. If you think they are you've never lived in a PTE area :)

All Merseyrail season tickets are PTE products, for example, railway point to point seasons are not issued.

They can effectively be replaced with capped contactless, but not by September.

You could bin "leisure" Rovers and Rangers, yes, though I'd keep them, sold only as e-tickets from a dedicated website and app.

They'll probably be asked to take a photo or scan their ID instead.

I'm just waiting for "what if they still use 35mm film"... that'll be almost nobody, then.

Another option would be to get Councils to handle their issue as well as online, by taking an annual fee to add it to the concessionary bus pass card somehow.

I know myself, a phone based ticket will be a dis-incentive.. I dont trust my phone to have sufficient charge for a full day, given the volume of activity I use it for… if its that or nothing, my travel habits will change…

Carry a power bank.
Carry a USB cable (many charging opportunities these days).
Print your e-ticket out.
Buy your ticket from a TVM.
Get a better phone.

Lots of options.
 
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Iskra

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In the medium term (say 2-3 years) it's certainly an achievable goal. But implementing it in September is far too soon; TVMs would have to be upgraded to give them a "staff mode" like what LU TVMs have. Rangers, rovers and PTE products would have to be sold at ticket machines and online. And quite a lot more ticket machines would need to be installed.

Whilst a lot of people do use mobile ticketing, Avanti have dropped a right clanger by reducing the number of TVMs as part of their replacement programme. Quite major stations are left with only 2 TVMs and even Euston just has 5 IIRC. That might be fine at the quietest times but it's of no use when there is a long queue for buying or collecting tickets, forcing people to miss their train.

I think letting this leak may be more of a negotiating tactic than anything else.
At a certain length of queue for a ticket office or TVM, surely most people will just buy online instead on a mobile because it’s quicker. So, I’m not sure that additional TVM’s actually adds much extra value apart from at the busiest stations or those with a lot of tourist usage.

The TVM at my local station is on the opposite platform to the one I usually use. So, rather than leave the station, walk under the bridge and then back up the stairs onto the station, I find it easier to buy online.
 

swaldman

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So first you need to make ticket offices redundant by having a ticketing system that is straightforward and usable. Then it's possible to reduce the ticket offices to dealing with complex ticketing queries and smartcard issues, rather than day to day retailing.
Hear here.
 

DanNCL

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It sounds like a leak from the Tories to see how the electorate would react before making a decision.
 

Starmill

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One of the ironies here is that the Department isn't really even empowered to order Merseyrail to shut booking offices under the current structure. The Combined Authority has its budgets and can spend them on what it wants within the relevant policy area. Same applies with Transport for Wales and ScotRail.
 

HSTEd

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Ultimately 99% of the time people can get what they want from a ticket machine regardless.

And with Aztec coded tickets (or even low cost expendable MiFARE tickets) niche requirements can likely be met without much difficulty.
 

skyhigh

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Tickets offices are still needed for some things. For example I don’t think you can refund a ticket bought through a ticket machine at a ticket machine or online, you have to go to the ticket office to do that. So I think there is still need for at least some ticket offices.
Pretty easy to sort. You have the 'major' option that @Bletchleyite mentioned, or you have the option our TOC currently has. A freepost address - you can write a short cover letter as to why you need a refund, pop the ticket in and they will post you a cheque or arrange an electronic transfer. Yes, that would disadvantage a few people who needed the money there and then - but it would be cheaper to run.
 

Bletchleyite

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One of the ironies here is that the Department isn't really even empowered to order Merseyrail to shut booking offices under the current structure. The Combined Authority has its budgets and can spend them on what it wants within the relevant policy area. Same applies with Transport for Wales and ScotRail.

Merseyrail will likely sort itself, there's no other obvious source of funding for retaining guards. They'll just be keeping quiet about it for now, as the lack of TVMs means if there was a strike they'd lose money.

Pretty easy to sort. You have the 'major' option that @Bletchleyite mentioned, or you have the option our TOC currently has. A freepost address - you can write a short cover letter as to why you need a refund, pop the ticket in and they will post you a cheque or arrange an electronic transfer. Yes, that would disadvantage a few people who needed the money there and then - but it would be cheaper to run.

The aim needs to be "all railway points of sale can deal with everything regardless of who sold it" - so the idea of being able to scan a TVM bought e-ticket with your phone and hit "refund" is probably the way to go long term.

Bin off the admin fee for refunds of walk-up tickets (long overdue) and there's no need to faff about why, either. "Big data" analysis can be used to catch people out who are travelling then refunding, e.g. by looking for repeated disruption refunds on a day when there wasn't any disruption, then getting those people written up for fraud.

It's all doable - made easier if e-ticketing develops further towards true e-ticketing, i.e. where the ticket is a record in a database. Present e-tickets aren't in the same way.
 

6Gman

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Easiest way to do Rovers would be a dedicated website issuing them as e-tickets or by post and phone for the few that can't do e-tickets. They're a niche product.

The reason Avanti are reducing the number of TVMs is because hardly anyone is using them, by the way! Nothing appalling about that.



Indeed so. Merseyrail's ticket offices are an utter waste of money now - switch to offering contactless (and an Oyster like product for children) and they would serve pretty much no purpose at all.

It's an easy cut to make, too, because strikes would do nothing to affect daily operations, as enough people already book online or use TVMs.
What about people who want to buy a Rover on the day of use?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Regarding railcards:
Another option would be to get Councils to handle their issue as well as online, by taking an annual fee to add it to the concessionary bus pass card somehow.
It would be a lot simpler to make an adjustment to LA funding settlements and make it so that all such bus passes are automatically railcards too. That would also help to promote optional rail travel, extremely useful in the post-Covid environment.
 

Bletchleyite

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What about people who want to buy a Rover on the day of use?

Does your computer have a feature whereby if you have in your mind that you're going to go on a Rover trip that it won't turn on that morning? And your phone too?

(Yes, I know, Sod's law, but the other implementation of that is "on the morning, the booking office will be closed due to sickness", which gives you the same problem)
 

DelayRepay

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What about people who want to buy a Rover on the day of use?
They will have to buy them as an e-ticket. I guess the railways could make arrangements for them to be sold through shops with Paypoint terminals. But I doubt they will because the demand is probably tiny. And I'm afraid it's not realistic to keep ticket offices open based on such marginal cases.
 

Bletchleyite

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It would be a lot simpler to make an adjustment to LA funding settlements and make it so that all such bus passes are automatically railcards too. That would also help to promote optional rail travel, extremely useful in the post-Covid environment.

That would be a good "leveller" for those who have local rail but no useful bus service (common in some rural areas) while not costing as much as ENCTS etc including free rail for everyone. Good idea.
 

jfollows

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Except that I already know the answer, I'd ask the question of how much of the £500m/year savings will feed through in to lower fares. £0. So this is a good idea how? Who benefits from it? Hmmmm.
EDIT Maybe the "benefit" will be that rail fares will only go up by RPI+1% in future, rather than RPI+2%, or something similar.
FURTHER EDIT I calculate that £500m/year is about 5% of the pre-Covid UK annual rail fare revenue.
 
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6Gman

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Carry a power bank.
Carry a USB cable (many charging opportunities these days).
Print your e-ticket out.
Buy your ticket from a TVM.
Get a better phone.

Lots of options.
Or just walk to the station.
Buy your ticket from a human being using your chosen form of payment.
Catch your train.

No need to clutter up your handbag with cables or "power banks" (whatever they are).
No need to have your own printer.
No need to buy a "better phone".
 

JonathanH

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Except that I already know the answer, I'd ask the question of how much of the £500m/year savings will feed through in to lower fares. £0. So this is a good idea how? Who benefits from it? Hmmmm.
The taxpayer benefits and the railway continues to benefit from taxpayer support. Without reduction in costs, railway services themselves may reduce. Nothing feeds through to lower fares, just less need for external funding.
 

6Gman

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Does your computer have a feature whereby if you have in your mind that you're going to go on a Rover trip that it won't turn on that morning? And your phone too?

(Yes, I know, Sod's law, but the other implementation of that is "on the morning, the booking office will be closed due to sickness", which gives you the same problem)
Depending on how soon I'm going out I probably won't use my computer before leaving.

I certainly won't be switching on my printer.
 

Bletchleyite

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Or just walk to the station.
Buy your ticket from a human being using your chosen form of payment.
Catch your train.

No need to clutter up your handbag with cables or "power banks" (whatever they are).
No need to have your own printer.
No need to buy a "better phone".

Are you happy to pay extra to fund the ongoing cost of employing that person, when most people don't have a need for them?

(I jest not - Nederlandse Spoorwegen charges extra for buying from the booking office and has for some time)

Depending on how soon I'm going out I probably won't use my computer before leaving.

I certainly won't be switching on my printer.

Not many people are going to say "there's a train in 15 minutes, it takes me 10 minutes to walk to the station, I know, I'll go on a Rover trip".

Of those who do (most likely younger people who tend to be more spontaneous than older people), the vast majority will have a smartphone.

Ignoring wilful stubbornness (exactly the same as on the EV thread; this Forum really is a hive of Luddism at times) this is going to affect single or at a push double figures of people each year. Keeping 980 ticket offices open for even 980 people a year is going to be a waste of money.
 
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