Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

[Darandio]

What could "kill it off" then? (apart from obvious things like it having no customers!)

Post #375 sums it up. While that situation is ongoing and nobody knows exactly what the future of Arriva will be, anything can happen.

 

[krus_aragon]

Out of interest... That advert specifies only qualified train drivers. That presumably means, drivers who are likely to have been trained by a TOC. Is that standard practice amongst open access operators - to only employ drivers who have been trained by other companies? And if so, wouldn't that amount to an indirect way that the open access operators are being subsidised if it's always the franchised operators who have to pay to train them?

Perhaps it's unreasonable to expect a start-up open-access operator to train all their drivers. They'd need to hire at least one driving instructor, then spend a lot of their start-up capital on training them all. I would expect them to be able to train subsequent recruits (for expansion, or to replace natural wastage).

How comparable is it to start-ups and venture capitalists headhunting staff for key roles in their workforce?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I don't know if there's an answer, other than forcing staff to pay for their own training (like some airlines) or introducing a transfer market (like football clubs)... neither of which are entirely serious suggestions. Interesting question though.

I do not think that is a good idea -there has to be some way of writing it into contracts - something that would have to be agreed with the unions too I would think.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

How comparable is it to start-ups and venture capitalists headhunting staff for key roles in their workforce?

Not very comparable. I don't think there are many industries in which a business would spend a lot of time and money training someone, with no expectation that they could contribute to the business in any way until after their training. In the the area I'm familiar with - IT - the usual system is that someone who has minimal skills would be employed on a low-ish salary carrying out tasks that don't require high skill levels, and in effect learning and boosting their skills on the job.

 

[driver_m]

The way it’s going now with driver retention is to write it into the contract that if you leave the company within a period, you may be liable to pay back some of the training costs. Mainly to deal with poaching by better paying TOCs. Thankfully not like airlines where you have to stump up the cost of training to be a pilot yourself.

 

[dk1]

The way it’s going now with driver retention is to write it into the contract that if you leave the company within a period, you may be liable to pay back some of the training costs. Mainly to deal with poaching by better paying TOCs. Thankfully not like airlines where you have to stump up the cost of training to be a pilot yourself.

The more I hear about pilot training the more I'm shocked. Even heard that some budget airlines don't even supply trainees with pens. Crikey on t'railway we'd be shocked if we didn't get lunch & constant tea/coffee whilst in the classroom then a phone &/or tablet & a half decent wage whilst training with many getting overtime/Sunday pay too if their instructor does. The sky is certainly not always the limit

 

[700007]

The more I hear about pilot training the more I'm shocked. Even heard that some budget airlines don't even supply trainees with pens. Crikey on t'railway we'd be shocked if we didn't get lunch & constant tea/coffee whilst in the classroom then a phone &/or tablet & a half decent wage whilst training with many getting overtime/Sunday pay too if their instructor does. The sky is certainly not always the limit

I would change that to the sky tests your limits!

Definitely interesting to see the recruitment process has kicked off and seeing effectively a new company (or division) start up again, the first we have had in a few years.

 

[Bezza49]

Over on WNXX, the news page suggests Class 90's hired from DB are lined up for this, rather than 91's.

I'm happy either way, loco-hauled - and Class 90's return to WCML. Although a pity the novelty won't happen with the 91's, I think logically 90's are a better choice.

 

[sprunt]

I don't know if there's an answer, other than forcing staff to pay for their own training (like some airlines) or introducing a transfer market (like football clubs)... neither of which are entirely serious suggestions. Interesting question though.

Isn't there/wasn't there a plan to centralise training? I'm sure I've seen mention of that on here.

 

[pt_mad]

Over on WNXX, the news page suggests Class 90's hired from DB are lined up for this, rather than 91's.

I'm happy either way, loco-hauled - and Class 90's return to WCML. Although a pity the novelty won't happen with the 91's, I think logically 90's are a better choice.

Is it a rumour or is there a source over there?
So could be 90s and mk4s and a MK4 DVT? That is kind of novel. Perhaps that would be faster to introduce because 90s are already cleared?

 

[ainsworth74]

So could be 90s and mk4s and a MK4 DVT?

It's been happening every day on the ECML for a year or two now!

 

[pt_mad]

It's been happening every day on the ECML for a year or two now!

Still novel for the West Coast though.

 

[pt_mad]

Would they be likely to brand class 90s as Grand Central or would they remain in their freight livery? Could imagine they'd look nice all black.

 

[Entertexthere]

Would they be likely to brand class 90s as Grand Central or would they remain in their freight livery? Could imagine they'd look nice all black.

I would like to hope so- if they're off lease from Greater Anglia (Which will probably be most likely) then it probably will be so. Unless they hire them out from DB cargo or Freightliner

 

[pt_mad]

https://www.railadvent.co.uk/2019/06/grand-central-to-run-trains-to-blackpool.html/amp

It is expected that Grand Central will use Mark 4 coaches, from LNER, and Class 90 locomotives to haul the trains from the seaside to the capital.

Not sure how good a source that is though? Wikipedia's page for Grand Central now appears to be showing class 90s under Future Fleet as well. Although it mentions 225 sets.

 

[xotGD]

91s for the scrap yard then.

I'm still hoping for 90048/9 to put in an appearance.

 

[apinnard]

91s for the scrap yard then.

I'm still hoping for 90048/9 to put in an appearance.

90's have far superior acceleration to 91's, albeit a lower top speed. When I used to work for the ROSCO that owns the IC225 sets, it was well known that they had fallen out of love with the 91's and only really thought there was use for the MK4 coaches post-ECML use. They pretty much accepted as long ago as 2013 that the MK4s would outlive the 91's.

I sat in a company briefing with the then almost retired Head of Engineering, who's opening comment was, amongst other things: "They had design flaws. Such as; ejecting cardan shafts at speed."

 

[Ianno87]

90's have far superior acceleration to 91's, albeit a lower top speed. When I used to work for the ROSCO that owns the IC225 sets, it was well known that they had fallen out of love with the 91's and only really thought there was use for the MK4 coaches post-ECML use. They pretty much accepted as long ago as 2013 that the MK4s would outlive the 91's.

I sat in a company briefing with the then almost retired Head of Engineering, who's opening comment was, amongst other things: "They had design flaws. Such as; ejecting cardan shafts at speed."

Worth noting that the higher top speed of 91s will be of little use on the WCML, with few non-EPS speeds exceeding 110mph or so. 90s would make more sense.

 

[driver_m]

Worth noting that the higher top speed of 91s will be of little use on the WCML, with few non-EPS speeds exceeding 110mph or so. 90s would make more sense.

What’s the build quality like on a 91 though? 90’s deservedly had a bad reputation in their early days, and I remember one of my first solo trips in a 90 getting a good soaking from the leaky roof.

 

[Polarbear]

I also think 90’s would be a better choice for this service. The top speed will be limited to 110mph so the speed differential of a 91 will be wasted. Also, 90’s accelerate faster than 91’s.

Added to that is that there are more 90’s than 91’s, albeit some haven’t worked for a while-but more spares parts available (they ain’t as youthful as they used to be).

 

[pt_mad]

Came across this on youtube.
Not my video.

 

[hexagon789]

Still novel for the West Coast though.

Only the Mk4s really, the WCML was very much the 90s stamping ground.

Worth noting that the higher top speed of 91s will be of little use on the WCML, with few non-EPS speeds exceeding 110mph or so. 90s would make more sense.

Afaik there are no non-EPS speeds exceeding 110mph on the WCML.

 

[Ianno87]

Only the Mk4s really, the WCML was very much the 90s stamping ground.



Afaik there are no non-EPS speeds exceeding 110mph on the WCML.

Odd ones do exist - between Wolverhampton and Stafford I recall (if you count that as "WCML")

 

[hexagon789]

Odd ones do exist - between Wolverhampton and Stafford I recall (if you count that as "WCML")

I suppose in a sense, I mean it would be like counting the lines out to Birmingham/Liverpool/Manchester as WCML, arguably they are a branch of that bit still...

In any case, what is the limit between Wolverhampton and Stafford then - 125?

 

[43096]

The 125 Group hope to get her operational again at some point.........
Well she could provide cover for 91s and the like......

I admit it, I just really like her and want to see her back in service

Why would 125 Group have anything to do with 89001?!

 

[hexagon789]

In any case, what is the limit between Wolverhampton and Stafford then - 125?

Never mind, I've found out its 90/MU 125/EPS 125. So anything from a Voyager to a Pendolino, to an HST can do 125 on that section.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Never mind, I've found out its 90/MU 125/EPS 125. So anything from a Voyager to a Pendolino, to an HST can do 125 on that section.

As I read it, that limits LHCS to 90mph.
HST would allow 91+Mk4 (but apparently not 90+Mk4).
The 125 section is actually 10 miles of almost dead straight track (slight curve round Penkridge).
90 was the PSR before any of the WCRM upgrades.

 

[HSTEd]

Why would 125 Group have anything to do with 89001?!

Apologies, I got mixed up between the 125 group and the AC Group.

Probably because it is one of the only two classes of 125mph AC locomotives!

 

[hexagon789]

As I read it, that limits LHCS to 90mph.
HST would allow 91+Mk4 (but apparently not 90+Mk4).
The 125 section is actually 10 miles of almost dead straight track (slight curve round Penkridge).
90 was the PSR before any of the WCRM upgrades.

Yes, I don't fully understand why am HST can run at MU and HST speeds but an InterCity 225 only at the latter.

As for 90+Mk4s not being allowed to use HST speeds could it be because 90s are rheostatic and tread brakes while 91s I believe have discs?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Yes, I don't fully understand why am HST can run at MU and HST speeds but an InterCity 225 only at the latter.

As for 90+Mk4s not being allowed to use HST speeds could it be because 90s are rheostatic and tread brakes while 91s I believe have discs?

If memory serves me correctly, 91s have lighter axle leadings so when bolted onto 225 stock will not hammer the track as much as a 90 would when screaming along on the back...