Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start spring 2020

Discussion in 'UK Railway Discussion' started by The Planner, 7 Jun 2018.

  1. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,825
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    Well for that, it would need to be a Northern service, who would want extra subsidy to run it, especially if it stopped at extra stations (eg Hartford, NLW).
    DfT must have set their face against that in the franchise spec, and Northern currently have enough on their plate delivering what they already signed up to.
    In a world of surplus EMUs though, it would make some sense.
    It also falls down the crack of local authorities, passing through several different jurisdictions, some without much enthusiasm for rail.
    Though it all sits under TfN.
     
  2. whhistle

    whhistle On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,636
    Joined:
    30 Dec 2010
    Note, I said "a few thousand".
    Some may be frustrated with the way East Coast has been ever since GNER left really, so that may encourage them to swap too. Thinking from a "we have MK4/DVT/91 set up but will take 6 months/year to train" - is that really enough time? Then again, some Train Drivers from ex-London Midland may be interested too.
     
  3. 323235

    323235 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,712
    Joined:
    8 Dec 2007
    Location:
    North East Cheshire
    I've seen it happen at Stockport in the past when no one turned up to dispatch and then the announcer was announcing the train after it had departed
     
  4. sdrennan

    sdrennan Member

    Messages:
    185
    Joined:
    23 Feb 2011
    I travel the West coast line often (usually Glasgow-Preston/Birmingham or London) but I was just looking to get a train from Crewe to Warrington. I was shocked when I realised that this 17m journey between 2 major stations on the same line only has 1 train per hour. Increasing to include something additional is definitely something they need to include in one of the franchises.
    Hartford just south of Warrington is only about 10 mins journey time but because there is no stopper the average journey time is over an hour
     
  5. VT 390

    VT 390 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,206
    Joined:
    7 Dec 2018
    Could London North Western Railway extend their Euston to Crewe via the Trent Valley through to Warrington/Preston, calling at Winsford, Hartford, Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan North Western, Euxton, Leyland & Preston. This would allow a more frequent Crewe to Warrington service as well as offering a cheep Preston to London service and one of the Birmingham to Liverpool's could run non stop Crewe to Runcorn in both directions, slightly improving journey times.
     
  6. cle

    cle Established Member

    Messages:
    1,936
    Joined:
    17 Nov 2010
    I think they proposed that (maybe it was diverting 1tph from Liverpool?) and it was denied.

    Even a local service (a 319) from Crewe to Preston calling all stations would be useful as a start. I'd imagine Hartford and Winsford like their Liverpool services, as well as connections north and south. We should aim to increase frequency across the board not just replace 1tph with another 1tph.
     
  7. VT 390

    VT 390 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,206
    Joined:
    7 Dec 2018
    I am not saying that the current 1tph should be replaced but the second Hartford train in one direction should be replaced (off-peak) with a service to Preston making 2tph
     
  8. Bertie the bus

    Bertie the bus Established Member

    Messages:
    1,472
    Joined:
    15 Aug 2014
    It wasn’t diverting a Liverpool service. When LM got additional 350s they proposed a Birmingham – Preston service. The ORR refused it on revenue abstraction grounds so LM introduced another Birmingham – London service (extending a Northampton one?) instead.
     
  9. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    47,055
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Years ago North Western Trains proposed an hourly Crewe to Carlisle stopping service using Class 309s, but were denied as they were slamdoor and there were no grandfather rights. Time to resurrect that using 319s?
     
  10. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,825
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    There's been another round of service specification since then, and the DfT has not changed its stance, either for WMT or the upcoming WCP franchise.
    I imagine they are waiting for the impact of HS2 to crystallise in the WCP bids.
    In some ways the Alliance paths rather spoil the franchise potential for more generic services.
    If they stopped at Crewe it would make a big difference (you can blame the lack of tilt for that).
     
  11. Bertie the bus

    Bertie the bus Established Member

    Messages:
    1,472
    Joined:
    15 Aug 2014
    Certainly not time to resurrect a Crewe – Carlisle stopper. The time for that is never. How many passenger trains per hour do you think Preston – Carlisle needs? It is south of Lancaster, and south of Preston in particular, which requires more services or services which offer better connections.
     
  12. Mathew S

    Mathew S Established Member

    Messages:
    2,022
    Joined:
    7 Aug 2017
    You're right, of course. But, running it all the way through to Carlisle would bring competition to VTWC/WCP all the way through from Euston to Glasgow and Edinburgh which, for us mere passengers, can only be a good thing.
     
  13. Doctor Fegg

    Doctor Fegg Member

    Messages:
    765
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2010
    Central Trains wanted to run Birmingham-Preston too. One of those CT services that almost got off the ground but not quite - Nottingham-Oxford being another.
     
  14. PR1Berske

    PR1Berske On Moderation

    Messages:
    2,808
    Joined:
    27 Jul 2010
    Location:
    Preston
    Quite the "what if" . Getting a foothold in longer distance journeys could have shaken up the stopper options on the WCML.
     
  15. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

    Messages:
    9,617
    Joined:
    15 Apr 2008
    Nottingham Oxford was one of those were you just ended up crying as you could never make it work.
     
  16. route101

    route101 Established Member

    Messages:
    5,606
    Joined:
    16 May 2010
    Didnt that run on a limited basis?
     
  17. VT 390

    VT 390 Established Member

    Messages:
    1,206
    Joined:
    7 Dec 2018
    Is there not 1 Nottingham to Oxford train a day operated by XC running through to Bournemouth (southbound only)
     
  18. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,801
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    Yes, but it runs as far as Birmingham in the normal hourly path (usually 170 operated the rest of the day) and then south of Birmingham in the normal hourly XC Voyager path that comes through from Manchester.

    It’s operational convenience rather than an extra service like CT proposed years ago.
     
    Last edited: 19 Jan 2019
  19. t0ffeeman

    t0ffeeman Member

    Messages:
    271
    Joined:
    11 Jul 2008
    Always thought the CT version was an extension of the Nuneaton - Cov (and variants)
     
  20. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,784
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    So when will 4 ic225 sets likely be available from LNER roughly? Are we talking end of 2019 at the earliest?
     
  21. Ianno87

    Ianno87 Established Member

    Messages:
    6,060
    Joined:
    3 May 2015
    It's what would be the 0627 Manchester-Bournemouth, diverted to start from Nottingham instead. In its place runs a VT 0627 Manchester-Birmingham-Euston Pendolino, to provide extra Brum commuting capacity.

    Quite clever really!
     
  22. NotATrainspott

    NotATrainspott Established Member

    Messages:
    2,880
    Joined:
    2 Feb 2013
    The increase in TPE Manchester/Liverpool to Scotland should satisfy any demand for more stopping trains north of Preston for a while. Manchester and Liverpool will be more important destinations than Birmingham for passengers in the North East of England. Additional capacity between Preston and Birmingham might be quite worthwhile though.
     
  23. Doctor Fegg

    Doctor Fegg Member

    Messages:
    765
    Joined:
    9 Nov 2010
    I think it actually made it into the GBTT at one point, with a note at the start of the book saying "start date to be confirmed".

    Nope. Wikipedia said it did but Wikipedia was talking rot (film at eleven). Someone had seen a picture of a CT-liveried 158 at Oxford and got the wrong end of the stick - it was actually on hire to Thames Trains for Bicester-Oxford and Oxford-Bristol services.

    Via Birmingham, though. The CT service would have been two-hourly via Nuneaton, Coventry and Leamington IIRC.
     
  24. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

    Messages:
    2,249
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2011
    The service was there even before the princess/red revolution timetable changes. When Manchester only had xx27 departures to Euston. (1 an hour!! Who would believe that now?) Excellent train for keeping route knowledge over the West Midlands as it was crewed throughout by Manchester drivers. Also used to be a 1710 return service which was dropped during the same series of timetable changes. At one time there was even a proposal to run a VT service from New St to Manchester at about 0600 in order to get the stock into Piccadilly for a departure back out at 0835 or 0855 because it was proving so difficult to get a train off Longsight due to congestion at Ardwick. It was to use an XC path too but never happened.

    Some may remember a service had to start at Stockport for this reason rather than from Manchester for about 3-6 months IIRC .
     
  25. pt_mad

    pt_mad Established Member

    Messages:
    2,784
    Joined:
    26 Sep 2011
    Ignore my ignorance but what is the CT service?
     
  26. driver_m

    driver_m Established Member

    Messages:
    2,249
    Joined:
    8 Nov 2011
    Central Trains. Previous franchisee before London Midland .
     
  27. Birmz

    Birmz Member

    Messages:
    5
    Joined:
    21 Jan 2019
    Location:
    Birmingham, UK.
    I might be missing something here, as whilst it's great that GNWR will provide more for the communities that it serves, greater competition in the market, alongside frequent London-Blackpool vice versa services. However, what actually is the incentive for people to use GNWR's service over Virgin Trains to Preston and then a 20-odd minute Northern service to Blackpool? Especially when it's going to be on InterCity225 sets, which granted they'll be refurbished, but they don't necessarily provide any dramatic improvement to the journey itself imo. Unless the long-term aim is to eventually get newer stock and gain more routes to become a more 'GNWR'-style operator?
     
  28. LNW-GW Joint

    LNW-GW Joint Veteran Member

    Messages:
    13,825
    Joined:
    22 Feb 2011
    Location:
    Mold, Clwyd
    I caught the "early" Virgin service to Blackpool from Wigan last week (1112), about the 3rd time I have used it.
    It's always nearly empty - there was just one other passenger in the first two coaches.
    It leaves Preston for Blackpool among a cluster of Northern services and is largely ignored.
    Things will have to look up if the service is going to be viable.
    It also has a very slow schedule, compared to the Glasgow services.
     
  29. dk1

    dk1 Established Member

    Messages:
    8,055
    Joined:
    2 Oct 2009
    Location:
    East Anglia
    Moderation of competition.

    As a way of protecting the revenues of Virgin Trains to enable it to pay franchise premiums to the government to partly recoup the cost of the West Coast Main Line upgrade, the Office of Rail Regulation inserted a Moderation of Competition in Virgin's Track Access Agreement. Until its expiry in March 2012, this prevented any other train operating or open access companies operating services in competition that would abstract revenue.

    The above from what I recall prevented any operator competing on the Virgin Cross Country & West Coast routes radiating from Birmingham New St towards Reading/Bristol/Manchester/Sheffield aswell of course from Open Access operators such as Wrexham & Shropshire from picking up southbound or setting down northbound at Wolverhampton on the realitivly short lived Marylebone services.
     
  30. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

    Messages:
    21,801
    Joined:
    7 Apr 2010
    It had very widespread effects on competition, as you note, and as another example even the Southern WLL service was covered. At one time their was an appeal going on about whether the SN services could legally start at Clapham Junction, as opposed to passing through Clapham Junction...
     

Share This Page