Alliance Blackpool service to be run by Grand Central and start in 2021

[Ianno87]

I caught the "early" Virgin service to Blackpool from Wigan last week (1112), about the 3rd time I have used it.
It's always nearly empty - there was just one other passenger in the first two coaches.
It leaves Preston for Blackpool among a cluster of Northern services and is largely ignored.
Things will have to look up if the service is going to be viable.
It also has a very slow schedule, compared to the Glasgow services.

On the plus side, its a 390 that otherwise sits idle in London during the day, so in theory the marginal cost of running it ought to be relatively low.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I caught the "early" Virgin service to Blackpool from Wigan last week (1112), about the 3rd time I have used it.
It's always nearly empty - there was just one other passenger in the first two coaches.
It leaves Preston for Blackpool among a cluster of Northern services and is largely ignored.
Things will have to look up if the service is going to be viable.
It also has a very slow schedule, compared to the Glasgow services.

I am told that the Blackpool VWC loadings are on the low side - and today's Modern Railways quotes the city as having a pretty low growth traffic wise , (1.9%) along with Hull and Middlesborough. had 2 hours in Blackpool last year which was probably 1hr45 too much.

But then a cynic might possibly suggest that Mr Orcats might have a role , thought the free market obsessives might suggest that "let it rip and so on..." is the clear answer.

In passing , anyone recall that there used to be very cheap flights from Blackpool , or was it Liverpool - that ended when even low cost airlines could not hack it !

 

[Roose]

Not quite. IIRC, there was a decent offering of routes - twenty or so, perhaps - in the early years of this century, although Stanstead and Belfast flights were withdrawn fairly soon after they were introduced due to low passenger numbers. Fares for flights were similar to other airports' routes, being based on the usual market-pricing. Ryanair, who operated a bouquet of routes, mainly to the continent and Jersey, pulled out when the council, who owned the airport at the time, introduced a £10 "departure charge" for all outgoing passengers for which they provided a week's free parking. Manx2 had flights - to the Isle of Man, unsurprisingly. Jet 2 was the other main operator, also having a range of routes but this finished when the then owner (Balfour Beatty by now) announced they intended to close the airport. It has since reopened but only for general aviation and non-scheduled commercial use.

A shame the commercial services didn't continue. It was a pleasant airport to use with little fuss departing and leaving and convenient parking, some right outside the terminal.

 

[43096]

I might be missing something here, as whilst it's great that GNWR will provide more for the communities that it serves, greater competition in the market, alongside frequent London-Blackpool vice versa services. However, what actually is the incentive for people to use GNWR's service over Virgin Trains to Preston and then a 20-odd minute Northern service to Blackpool? Especially when it's going to be on InterCity225 sets, which granted they'll be refurbished, but they don't necessarily provide any dramatic improvement to the journey itself imo. Unless the long-term aim is to eventually get newer stock and gain more routes to become a more 'GNWR'-style operator?

Well, on a Saturday it would provide a Preston-Blackpool service which Northern don't....

 

[pt_mad]

I might be missing something here, as whilst it's great that GNWR will provide more for the communities that it serves, greater competition in the market, alongside frequent London-Blackpool vice versa services. However, what actually is the incentive for people to use GNWR's service over Virgin Trains to Preston and then a 20-odd minute Northern service to Blackpool? Especially when it's going to be on InterCity225 sets, which granted they'll be refurbished, but they don't necessarily provide any dramatic improvement to the journey itself imo. Unless the long-term aim is to eventually get newer stock and gain more routes to become a more 'GNWR'-style operator?

Presumably as it's an open access operation, it's simply that the operator sees it as a viable business financially? As well as helping communities as you pointed out, and all the other usual benefits and gains which come with an improved rail service at stations where it will call. And obviously creating jobs.

Worth nothing that there may be passengers wishing to travel from Eastern England and East Anglia who will be pointed towards this service at Nuneaton if they are heading to Preston, and or connections, and destinations further north. Presume journey planners will pick this up? Also with the service calling at Milton Keynes, it gives them a direct Preston/North of England service. And likewise further connections at Nuneaton for passengers between Milton Keynes/East Anglia.

Train stock wise, does anyone have any idea at all when LNER will likely have 4 or 5 class 80x trains in service, so as to be in a position to release 4 x 225 sets?

 

[The Ham]

I might be missing something here, as whilst it's great that GNWR will provide more for the communities that it serves, greater competition in the market, alongside frequent London-Blackpool vice versa services. However, what actually is the incentive for people to use GNWR's service over Virgin Trains to Preston and then a 20-odd minute Northern service to Blackpool? Especially when it's going to be on InterCity225 sets, which granted they'll be refurbished, but they don't necessarily provide any dramatic improvement to the journey itself imo. Unless the long-term aim is to eventually get newer stock and gain more routes to become a more 'GNWR'-style operator?

How often does the Virgin service to Blackpool run? IIRC not that frequently. As such having a direct service (which lots of people say they prefer over chainring trains) which runs as a more memorable time frequency (say every two hours) , is likely to result in more people using the service.

Having a company which is advertising its existence, will also increase use.

As others have said by having connections could result in more people wishing to use it for part of the route. For instance, if you were wishing to travel from Coventry to Blackpool (assuming that the timings were broadly comparable) you could we be tempted to connect with the service at Nuneaton rather than go via Birmingham. Especially if the available services through Birmingham are busy at the times you wish to travel.

 

[Ianno87]

I am told that the Blackpool VWC loadings are on the low side - and today's Modern Railways quotes the city as having a pretty low growth traffic wise , (1.9%) along with Hull and Middlesborough. had 2 hours in Blackpool last year which was probably 1hr45 too much.

But then a cynic might possibly suggest that Mr Orcats might have a role , thought the free market obsessives might suggest that "let it rip and so on..." is the clear answer.

In passing , anyone recall that there used to be very cheap flights from Blackpool , or was it Liverpool - that ended when even low cost airlines could not hack it !

Does make you wonder whether using the spare set inter-peak might have been better on a return trip to (say) Liverpool and back as an 'extra' to generate a bit more revemue than Blackpool appears to be offering. Though I suspect that doesn't keep it out of the way at Euston for long enough, unless it chews up a platform at Lime Street for ages instead.

 

[The Planner]

I suspect you may find that Blackpool goes completely Voyager soon, they will probably find a way of making the Birmingham 5 car Voyager diagram a 9 car Pendo.

 

[frodshamfella]

Does make you wonder whether using the spare set inter-peak might have been better on a return trip to (say) Liverpool and back as an 'extra' to generate a bit more revemue than Blackpool appears to be offering. Though I suspect that doesn't keep it out of the way at Euston for long enough, unless it chews up a platform at Lime Street for ages instead.

There was a flight from Blackpool to Stansted by "buzz", and I think maybe Ryanair.
(sorry meant to reply to Chiefplanner post)

 

[Mollman]

Does make you wonder whether using the spare set inter-peak might have been better on a return trip to (say) Liverpool and back as an 'extra' to generate a bit more revemue than Blackpool appears to be offering. Though I suspect that doesn't keep it out of the way at Euston for long enough, unless it chews up a platform at Lime Street for ages instead.

May also have something to do with VTWC preempting the GNWR service, just like when they started running to Wrexham around the time Wrexham & Shropshire was being set up.

 

[Clip]

I caught the "early" Virgin service to Blackpool from Wigan last week (1112), about the 3rd time I have used it.
It's always nearly empty - there was just one other passenger in the first two coaches.
It leaves Preston for Blackpool among a cluster of Northern services and is largely ignored.
Things will have to look up if the service is going to be viable.
It also has a very slow schedule, compared to the Glasgow services.

Those Northern Services serve Kirkham and also Layton so those passengers have no other option!

I use the 1500 on most days Im up there and it seems to be loaded quite well - though the winter has made this drop off a little but prices are very reasonable IMO - just booked this friday afternoon coming back for £65 1st class. Can work in that time and get home to see the lass at a reasonable time.

 

[pt_mad]

Can any of us at least have a guess as to when GNWR might at least be able to get hold of four 225 sets? I.e. when will LNER have 5 or 6 Azumas in service?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

May also have something to do with VTWC preempting the GNWR service, just like when they started running to Wrexham around the time Wrexham & Shropshire was being set up.

DfT (Patrick McLoughlin) asked Virgin to serve Blackpool (and Shrewsbury) in one of the direct awards, as part of the revised franchise spec.

 

[hwl]

Can any of us at least have a guess as to when GNWR might at least be able to get hold of four 225 sets? I.e. when will LNER have 5 or 6 Azumas in service?

The first released Mk4s likely to be be going to Wales first to replace MK3s (and sort PRM issues) and LNER will need to ensure it can replace all their 125s (14 sets) by year end, work their 225s less hard / have more spare before releasing any and increase the service level to bring more revenue in. So not soon!

 

[pt_mad]

The first released Mk4s likely to be be going to Wales first to replace MK3s (and sort PRM issues) and LNER will need to ensure it can replace all their 125s (14 sets) by year end, work their 225s less hard / have more spare before releasing any and increase the service level to bring more revenue in. So not soon!

Next year?

 

[hwl]

Next year?

Though possible it would be a bit optimistic to assume sooner given delays all over the place. Also worth noting the IETs will need mods before running with LNER....

 

[cle]

I can't see it being a huge success, and I think the wires to Blackpool are far more useful for the NW services. To be short, nobody from Blackpool goes to London on a regular basis, and Londoners don't tend to visit Blackpool either.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I can't see it being a huge success, and I think the wires to Blackpool are far more useful for the NW services. To be short, nobody from Blackpool goes to London on a regular basis, and Londoners don't tend to visit Blackpool either.

The political parties (bless them) , do not go there either, anymore.

Ever since Mandelson famously confused mushy peas with guacamole

 

[Mikey C]

A regular and reliable (ha ha, especially on Saturday) Northern Service would probably suffice for most users from London. The sort of people who would want a door to door service (and you still need to get from Blackpool North to your hotel) would probably drive or take a coach tour anyway

 

[PR1Berske]

The political parties (bless them) , do not go there either, anymore.

Ever since Mandelson famously confused mushy peas with guacamole

I hate being *that guy* but if the mix up happened at all, it was during an election campaign at Hartlepool.

 

[Birmz]

Well, on a Saturday it would provide a Preston-Blackpool service which Northern don't....

Well at least that's one genuine positive out of all of this then. I put my hand up and admit it has potential due to the gap in the market, similarly to WSMR with Wrexham-London and GC with Sunderland/Bradford-London, but I just feel it's a bit unnecessary when you think of how easy it could be for Virgin to run a few extra services if the demand was there..which clearly hasn't been flagged up as significantly demanding as they would have done it already. Who knows. I like the idea, but we'll see.

Regarding the IC225s/IETs, wouldn't the DfT honour an extension to when GNWR will start operations as it's out of GNWR's control for the 225s not being released in time and they must know of the implications surrounding all of this? Or is it more of a 'why don't you look for something else?'...68s and stock seems to be the way forward at the moment, or short HSTs haha. I guess additionally you could argue that as a business, it's down to GNWR to sort out the traction they use and simply it's not going to plan for them.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I hate being *that guy* but if the mix up happened at all, it was during an election campaign at Hartlepool.

Useful clarification ...thanks.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Regarding the IC225s/IETs, wouldn't the DfT honour an extension to when GNWR will start operations as it's out of GNWR's control for the 225s not being released in time and they must know of the implications surrounding all of this? Or is it more of a 'why don't you look for something else?'...68s and stock seems to be the way forward at the moment, or short HSTs haha. I guess additionally you could argue that as a business, it's down to GNWR to sort out the traction they use and simply it's not going to plan for them.

It's the ORR which grants open access, not the DfT.
The GNWR rights, I think (and Virgin's on the same route), run to 2026 when HS2 should open and change the basic capacity on the WCML.
It's down to GNWR to confirm its stock and get route clearance from NR.
I don't think there are any restrictions on the start date.

 

[adrock1976]

The introduction of the Blackpool services I feel would go some way to reinstate intermediate connections between the Intercity stations that were cut at the December 2008 timetable change.

On the topic of Open Access and also maybe earlier references in this thread (or one of the numerous Northern related threads) relating to the service level between Preston and Crewe, I have had a go at trying to see if an OA Glasgow/Edinburgh - Bristol via Preston, Shrewsbury, and Hereford would work based on the existing traffic through Crewe and the present day timings of the Glasgow/Edinburgh Virgin Intercity trains.

I have started a new thread in the Speculative Ideas section of the forum.
https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...l-via-preston-shrewsbury-and-hereford.176939/

 

[driver_m]

Why do people have this laser focus on the two end to end points, namely Blackpool and Euston. When the service provides very handy extra capacity to Warrington Bank Quay, Wigan and Preston too?

Happens a lot on these forums. Warrington and the wider area around benefits massively from these links and it has recently been recognised as the most productive place in the North by the ONS. Yet just because it's end point happens to be Blackpool, that's what we must seemingly concentrate on, and then all the nonsense about whether a place 'deserves' it's link.

So if not Blackpool, then where?? Bear in mind, it's crewed by Preston Staff typically from Crewe, where do you all suggest it goes instead?

 

[cle]

My personal take has been an hourly Lancs service - which would stop at Crewe, Warrington, Wigan and Preston each hour.

After that, a mix of Blackpool, Lancaster and Carlisle each hour. When Lancaster and/or stations to Carlisle - some calls could be dropped from the fast London Glasgow in the same hour to speed that up. Plus, this would mean the London-Glasgow would be fast to Preston.

South of Crewe up for debate, but likely one or two calls, Watford and Rugby would be good to serve a bit more, if path-able.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

So if not Blackpool, then where?? Bear in mind, it's crewed by Preston Staff typically from Crewe, where do you all suggest it goes instead?

NR's suggestion in the RUS was for an alternating hourly Liverpool/Preston service (this was before Blackpool was due to be wired).
But the main problem for a 10th hourly service out of Euston has always been the lack of tilting stock, and the denial of more 390 orders by DfT.
I'm sure nobody begrudges Blackpool some through services, but it's the Crewe/Lancs area which needs the uplift (also so that the Glasgows can be sped up).
Plus better Trent Valley connections.
What's on offer at the moment could be run just as well by 350s, but DfT seems to have decided against that as well.

 

[Clip]

I can't see it being a huge success, and I think the wires to Blackpool are far more useful for the NW services. To be short, nobody from Blackpool goes to London on a regular basis, and Londoners don't tend to visit Blackpool either.

And yet I do 2 or three times per week for work

 

[duffield]

Mandelson famously confused mushy peas with guacamole

Though widely believed to this day, this is *probably* false, it's worth reading the discussion (not official article) on this subject on the snopes website (well known for debunking or confirming such things).

 

[Townsend Hook]

Regarding the IC225s/IETs, wouldn't the DfT honour an extension to when GNWR will start operations as it's out of GNWR's control for the 225s not being released in time and they must know of the implications surrounding all of this? Or is it more of a 'why don't you look for something else?'...68s and stock seems to be the way forward at the moment, or short HSTs haha. I guess additionally you could argue that as a business, it's down to GNWR to sort out the traction they use and simply it's not going to plan for them.

A short-term lease of ex-GWR HSTs would seem the obvious way to go, as long as PRM issues can somehow be sidestepped. Although there are the DRS Mk2 sets just released from the Cumbrian Coast .