ALR - before 10h00 restriction

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sparks2000

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Hi,

I am considering an ALR ticket and in the planning stages I am confused by the pre 10h00 boarding restrictions at some stations. Is the restriction specific to embarkation at that station or embarkation of a train that picks up at the named station before 10h00? My last ALR was before the 10h00 restriction was introduced.

E.g. If I travel from Sandwell and Dudley at 07h15 do I fall foul of the Birmingham New Street 10h00 restriction on VTs?

Thanks for your help in advance.
 
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OwlMan

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Not valid for boarding or alighting train services operated by CrossCountry, East Coast, East Midlands Trains, Virgin Trains, before 10:00 Mondays – Fridays at the following stations:
Birmingham New Street
Bedford
London Euston
London Kings Cross
London St Pancras International
Luton
Luton Airport Parkway
Milton Keynes Central
Stevenage
Watford Junction
No restrictions apply on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays.
As the restriction states it only applies to boarding or alighting from train services operated by the named TOCs, before 10:00 Mondays – Fridays at the named stations.
There are no restrictions for travelling through Birmingham.
 

Lee_Again

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Does that mean I can use the ALR from Edinburgh to Kings Cross on the FScotsman and claim boundry Zone 6 to Kings Cross with a travel card. This means that I am not allighting with an ALR but a travel card; albeit with an extension.

They wouldn't be able to say that the ALR is valid in to Kings Cross and therefore you can't extend because the rules say you can't 'alight' which makes it invalid. But it still remains a season to boundry 6 (which is not a barred station) so this covers Edinburgh > Zone 6.

The ALR is a season and these can be extended with day tickets, right?

Thoughts?

Lee
 

nedchester

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Does that mean I can use the ALR from Edinburgh to Kings Cross on the FScotsman and claim boundry Zone 6 to Kings Cross with a travel card. This means that I am not allighting with an ALR but a travel card; albeit with an extension.

They wouldn't be able to say that the ALR is valid in to Kings Cross and therefore you can't extend because the rules say you can't 'alight' which makes it invalid. But it still remains a season to boundry 6 (which is not a barred station) so this covers Edinburgh > Zone 6.

The ALR is a season and these can be extended with day tickets, right?

Thoughts?

Lee
Technically this is valid. Not heard of anyone trying this though........
 

David10

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Does that mean I can use the ALR from Edinburgh to Kings Cross on the FScotsman and claim boundry Zone 6 to Kings Cross with a travel card. This means that I am not allighting with an ALR but a travel card; albeit with an extension.

They wouldn't be able to say that the ALR is valid in to Kings Cross and therefore you can't extend because the rules say you can't 'alight' which makes it invalid. But it still remains a season to boundry 6 (which is not a barred station) so this covers Edinburgh > Zone 6.

The ALR is a season and these can be extended with day tickets, right?
You may hit trouble because EC don't stop in Zone 6, so by default you have to travel to Kings Cross. Looking at it another way, you wouldn't be able to do it on a jouney going north, otherwise all you would need to do is buy a single to Finsbury Park and then your ALR would be valid.

Ultimately it depends on the fineprint in the Conditions of Carriage.
 

yorkie

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You may hit trouble because EC don't stop in Zone 6, so by default you have to travel to Kings Cross.
But the train does not need to call anywhere if using Condition 19 (c). You're thinking of 19 (b).

There is also confusion with Condition 19 (a); if using a Boundary Zone 6 ticket with a Zones 1-6 Travelcard, the train does not need to call at any boundary station. You may be thinking of an old rule in a previous NRCoC that was changed years ago.
Looking at it another way, you wouldn't be able to do it on a jouney going north, otherwise all you would need to do is buy a single to Finsbury Park and then your ALR would be valid.
But.. that is all you need to buy. Someone apparently asked ATOC that and they confirmed it, but said if too many people do it, they'll tighten up the rules.

Apparently the problem isn't with enthusiasts using ALRs at "peak" times, the problem is revenue abstraction for some TOCs due to business users purchasing ALRs who would otherwise buy 7 Day Seasons or Anytime Returns.

Ultimately it depends on the fineprint in the Conditions of Carriage.
See Condition 19 (c).

Also discussed in previous threads: (1) and (2).
 

sparks2000

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Thanks for the initial advice that pointed out the main flaw in my thinking (i.e. even though I can board at SAD I can't alight anywhere useful on a VT service). Given that restriction I will plan alternative morning routes (and make do without the VT breakfast as I don't think there is anyway to achieve that on the Rover).

Another route of interest is to travel down to PLY from WVH or SAD. This involves a change at BHM before 10:00 and so falls foul of the BHM/XC restriction. Can I buy a ticket BHM to CNM or would that be invalid if I don't actually leave the train at CNM?

I'm sorry if these "repeating" questions are annoying. I have tried to search my answer and I find the correct threads but the complexities of the rules and the penalties that might apply if I get it wrong leave me needing to double check here. Thanks in advance.

S
 

dvboy

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from SAD yes but wouldnt require a change at BHM from WVH eg the 0715 , 0816 or 0916 direct to cheltenham
 
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Statto

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Apparently the problem isn't with enthusiasts using ALRs at "peak" times, the problem is revenue abstraction for some TOCs due to business users purchasing ALRs who would otherwise buy 7 Day Seasons or Anytime Returns.
I didn't realise that was the reason. but when you think about it, before the 10am restriction was added, even buying a 14 day ALR, would save a lot more ££s than buying a 7 day weekly, if your regully going to London.
 

lyndhurst25

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Thanks for the initial advice that pointed out the main flaw in my thinking (i.e. even though I can board at Sandwell & Dudley I can't alight anywhere useful on a VT service). Given that restriction I will plan alternative morning routes (and make do without the VT breakfast as I don't think there is anyway to achieve that on the Rover).

Another route of interest is to travel down to Plymouth from Wolverhampton or Sandwell & Dudley. This involves a change at Birmingham New Street before 10:00 and so falls foul of the Birmingham New Street/XC restriction. Can I buy a ticket Birmingham New Street to Cheltenham or would that be invalid if I don't actually leave the train at Cheltenham?

I'm sorry if these "repeating" questions are annoying. I have tried to search my answer and I find the correct threads but the complexities of the rules and the penalties that might apply if I get it wrong leave me needing to double check here. Thanks in advance.

S
In a similar vain to RJ's Farringdon to Finsbury Park ticket, wouldn't a Smethwick Rolfe Street to Five Ways single (£1.80) allow sparks2000 to use Virgin or XC trains into and out of Birmingham New Street with an ALR before 10:00?
 
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DaveNewcastle

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I'm a little intrigued.
I didn't realise that was the reason. . . . .
What other reason had you imagined / read / heard for the recent imposition of these morning restrictions on the use of, otherwise network-wide permissions to travel, "All Line Rover" tickets?

I've put the full station names in for you!
Thank you. It is appreciated!
 

lyndhurst25

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What I cant work out is why they've banned boarding at these stations in the morning peak. Alighting I can understand. Are trains out of central London and Birmingham that busy with regular long-distance commuters in the mornings?
 

LexyBoy

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In a similar vain to RJ's Farringdon to Finsbury Park ticket, wouldn't a Smethwick Rolfe Street to Five Ways single (£1.80) allow sparks2000 to use Virgin or XC trains into and out of Birmingham New Street with an ALR before 10:00?
I believe ATOC have issued a statement / email saying this is valid, however be prepared to "show your working" if using these tickets.

Personally I would not consider it valid if it hadn't been officially confirmed as such. You'd certainly have no problems with a ticket to Cheltenham though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
What I cant work out is why they've banned boarding at these stations in the morning peak. Alighting I can understand. Are trains out of central London and Birmingham that busy with regular long-distance commuters in the mornings?
They'll ban as much as then can get away with!

 

bb21

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I believe ATOC have issued a statement / email saying this is valid, however be prepared to "show your working" if using these tickets.
Yes.

It is valid, however if this is abused then ATOC will look at ways to implement more restricted terms.
 

34D

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Thanks for the initial advice that pointed out the main flaw in my thinking (i.e. even though I can board at SAD I can't alight anywhere useful on a VT service). Given that restriction I will plan alternative morning routes (and make do without the VT breakfast as I don't think there is anyway to achieve that on the Rover).
Do re-read the above advice, which I don't think you have properly appreciated.
 

sparks2000

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Do re-read the above advice, which I don't think you have properly appreciated.
Ok, I give up, what am I missing? I understand the direct WVH to CNM via BHM would be valid on any service although my follow up was badly worded. I was worried about wasting time going into WVH but I see the ranger is valid if the change is CNM not BHM.

I don't think I need use the SMR>FWR fare. SAD (or SGB/SMR) to BHM can be done with LM or ATW. The BHM>FWY fare is an option but it seems it might cause an argument sbout the letter of the restriction rather than the spirit of the restriction. BHM>CHM seems fair to me but I am not sure what the rules are about split ticketing (is that the correct term?).

Thanks for help so far.
 

yorkie

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The rules on using a combination of tickets are defined in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 19.

If you use two or more tickets, where one is a Season (which includes an ALR) and the other(s) are not, that satisfies Condition 19 with no further requirement for the train to call.

However ATOC would like that abolished, so that the train would have to call.
 

dvboy

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I don't think you need to buy any extra ticket for any journey involving XC or VT going south.

For south-west on XC go to Wolverhampton and get a train direct to Cheltenham or beyond. For XC to Oxford/Reading/south coast, take ATW and change at Birmingham International. To arrive at London Euston before 1000 you'd have to change onto LM at Coventry.

You'll only have problems if you want to go north-east on XC to Derby or Leicester and onwards.
 

Seacook

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To arrive at London Euston before 1000 you'd have to change onto LM at Coventry.
That is one possibility. Another is The Hawthorns/Galton Bridge - Birmingham Moor Street - Marylebone on Chiltern.

If a breakfast is important, then a slighter later arrival at Euston could be Sandwell & Dudley (06:17 LM) - Wolverhampton (06:40 XC first breakfast) - Manchester Piccadilly (08:15 VT second, more substantial, breakfast) - Euston arriving 10.23. Then another train in time for elevenses.
 
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