ALR loophole for KGX

TrainTube

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One of the limitations of an All Line Rover is that you can't board trains before 10am at certain stations, 2 of these being Kings Cross and Stevenage. 14.2 from the conditions of travel states that providing both your single/return ticket is valid and your rover is valid in terms of date etc then you can use them together and the train doesn't have to stop. I was wondering whether you could buy a ticket from Kings Cross to Finsbury Park and board a train from KGX before 10, as your ticket leaving KGX is valid till Finsbury and then your ALR is valid. You would also not be boarding at KGX or Stevenage before 10am. Is this correct or am I missing something?
 
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Bletchleyite

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So what? If you have an advance to Stevenage then that advance is valid, not the ALR. It's the fact that the ALR won't be used from KGX it would be used from Finsbury Park
You still boarded the train at KGX.

As written, it would be invalid for York-Newcastle if you stepped through the doors of that train at KGX, regardless of what else happened.
 

TrainTube

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You still boarded the train at KGX.

As written, it would be invalid for York-Newcastle if you stepped through the doors of that train at KGX, regardless of what else happened.
So why isn't 14.2 allowed in this instance.
And what if i bought an advance to Stevenage and then stayed on the train?
 

Tetchytyke

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And what if i bought an advance to Stevenage and then stayed on the train?
The ALR is not valid if you boarded the LNER train at Kings Cross before 10am. It has nothing to do with 14.2.

If you want to travel early, you will need to take GTR to Peterborough.
 

Polarbear

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One of the limitations of an All Line Rover is that you can't board trains before 10am at certain stations, 2 of these being Kings Cross and Stevenage. 14.2 from the conditions of travel states that providing both your single/return ticket is valid and your rover is valid in terms of date etc then you can use them together and the train doesn't have to stop. I was wondering whether you could buy a ticket from Kings Cross to Finsbury Park and board a train from KGX before 10, as your ticket leaving KGX is valid till Finsbury and then your ALR is valid. You would also not be boarding at KGX or Stevenage before 10am. Is this correct or am I missing something?
Don't forget that the 10:00 rule only applies to LNER services to/from Kings Cross. You may use Hull Trains, Grand Central or GN services without restriction & personally, that's what I would do.
 

TrainTube

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Don't forget that the 10:00 rule only applies to LNER services to/from Kings Cross. You may use Hull Trains, Grand Central or GN services without restriction & personally, that's what I would do.
Yep I did consider this. Cheers
 

ainsworth74

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I would also suggest that, at least pre-Covid, a polite approach to an LNER Train Manager prior to departure would quite likely yield a positive result. Not to be relied on of course but when your ticket is an ALR you have maximum flexibility really!
 

Bletchleyite

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I would also suggest that, at least pre-Covid, a polite approach to an LNER Train Manager prior to departure would quite likely yield a positive result. Not to be relied on of course but when your ticket is an ALR you have maximum flexibility really!
Though, equally, if you went through the barrier with a KGX-Finsbury single and got stopped by an RPI you would have a very high chance of prosecution for "dumbbelling" - sort of - i.e. buying a short ticket just to pass the barriers and travel on an invalid ticket.

It's very clear to me that this is not allowed. A more grey area (which a guard would probably OK) would be if it wasn't a 14.2 split you were doing, but rather one with a revenue stop, where you could at least on paper leave the train and reboard. You could try that with a single to Peterborough if your chosen train stops there - as long as you accept "no, you'll have to get off and wait for the next one" with good grace.
 

AM9

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Would it not be possible to board at St Pancras (Thameslink) and travel to Stevenage, then change to an LNER train by which time it would be well after 10:00?
 

ainsworth74

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Though, equally, if you went through the barrier with a KGX-Finsbury single and got stopped by an RPI you would have a very high chance of prosecution for "dumbbelling" - sort of - i.e. buying a short ticket just to pass the barriers and travel on an invalid ticket.
I mean yeah maybe (though Byelaw 18 is dead on arrival as the TM giving permission kills that stone dead and if they don't then you don't board the train). Though it's not clear to me how an RPI would have any idea what you were doing when presented with a valid ticket to Finsbury Park unless someone volunteered that information (even then I'm not convinced it goes much further). As I stated, pre-covid, my approach would have been to approach the TM of the LNER service where I think there's a fair chance of success.
 

Haywain

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Would it not be possible to board at St Pancras (Thameslink) and travel to Stevenage, then change to an LNER train by which time it would be well after 10:00?
The ALR is also barred for boarding LNER services at Stevenage before 10:00.
 

Tetchytyke

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Though, equally, if you went through the barrier with a KGX-Finsbury single and got stopped by an RPI you would have a very high chance of prosecution for "dumbbelling" - sort of - i.e. buying a short ticket just to pass the barriers and travel on an invalid ticket.
Not really, as the ALR is valid on GTR services at any time.

I don't think the Finsbury Park ticket would allow you to use an ALR on LNER, so buying one would be pointless. It's always worth asking the guard, with a backup plan if the guard says no.

Would it not be possible to board at St Pancras (Thameslink) and travel to Stevenage, then change to an LNER train by which time it would be well after 10:00?
Not Stevenage, but boarding an LNER train at Peterborough is fine. Which is what I would do in this situation, as my appetite for discussion is low.
 

High Dyke

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Would it not be possible to board at St Pancras (Thameslink) and travel to Stevenage, then change to an LNER train by which time it would be well after 10:00?
Would it not be possible to board at St Pancras (Thameslink) and travel to Stevenage, then change to an LNER train by which time it would be well after 10:00?
I don't see why not. For example travelling beyond Stevenage using LNER then I would this sort of itinerary.
 

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Ianno87

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The ALR is also barred for boarding LNER services at Stevenage before 10:00.
On a weekday, there are no LNER trains that depart King's Cross pre-1000 that depart Stevenage after 1000. Go to Peterborough is the best bet.
 

crablab

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Given that the LNER service does not stop at FPK, I can understand why buying a ticket to it wouldn't be permitted when travelling on an LNER service.

That said, I don't see why if the OP bought a ticket KGX -> PBO, they couldn't then use their ALR from then onwards?

As far as the ALR is concerned, they only "boarded" at PBO, as it wasn't valid for their first leg but they did have another valid ticket. Just like a split.
 

Haywain

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I don't see why not. For example travelling beyond Stevenage using LNER then I would this sort of itinerary.
With the itinerary you provide, one might as well wait at Kings Cross until it leaves there at 10:06.
 

Ianno87

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That said, I don't see why if the OP bought a ticket KGX -> PBO, they couldn't then use their ALR from then onwards?
I would say that was permissible.

But if you're doing that, you may as well just get a GN/TL service to Peterborough and change (unless it's not feasible reach King's Cross/St Pancras sufficiently early to do that)
 

Bletchleyite

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Given that the LNER service does not stop at FPK, I can understand why buying a ticket to it wouldn't be permitted when travelling on an LNER service.

That said, I don't see why if the OP bought a ticket KGX -> PBO, they couldn't then use their ALR from then onwards?

As far as the ALR is concerned, they only "boarded" at PBO, as it wasn't valid for their first leg but they did have another valid ticket. Just like a split.
I think a ticket to Peterborough is more likely to be acceptable if the train stops there, as the argument "but I got off and back on again" is borderline plausible.

That isn't possible at Finsbury Park.

Yes, paragraph 14 might technically allow it but the restriction, which is clear, would override that. There are other such cases, I believe, such as paragraph 14 splits at MKC because of the way the restriction is worded.
 

crablab

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I think a ticket to Peterborough is more likely to be acceptable if the train stops there, as the argument "but I got off and back on again" is borderline plausible.

That isn't possible at Finsbury Park.
I agree. This is how it works with splits, so I don't see why it would be any different?

But if you're doing that, you may as well just get a GN/TL service to Peterborough
It's a lot faster to get an LNER service :)
 

43096

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This just illustrates what a mess the whole fares system is. An all-line rover should - and indeed was - a go-anywhere, any time ticket and was priced as such. That it was felt necessary to add arcane restrictions to it is frankly disgracefully.

It is already poor value (£540 for 7 days, 2nd class compared with interrail: £525 for 33 countries, 15 days continuous, 1st class, no stupid peak restrictions) without adding restrictions.
 

Polarbear

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This just illustrates what a mess the whole fares system is. An all-line rover should - and indeed was - a go-anywhere, any time ticket and was priced as such. That it was felt necessary to add arcane restrictions to it is frankly disgracefully.

It is already poor value (£540 for 7 days, 2nd class compared with interrail: £525 for 33 countries, 15 days continuous, 1st class, no stupid peak restrictions) without adding restrictions.
Yep, which is why I do Inter Rails rather than ALR's these days.
 

Peter Mugridge

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In my ALR week in August, what I did was get an early Thameslink to Peterborough and board LNER there. Most days I had a reservation on the 08.18 from Peterborough and made the connection easily by using the 06.31 from London Bridge. On one day the wires were down in the core and LNER gave me permission in writing to board the 07.30 at King's Cross - which is the exact same train.

A question about this, though: At present LNER has no peak restrictions on Fridays - does this easement include the ALR or not?
 

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