ALR Time Restrictions

[cambsy]

I am doing a 7 day 1st Class ALR end of September, and on one of they days I am doing 07.00 Kings Cross-Edinburgh on new Azuma, which aim to catch from Peterborough, using a Thameslink service from Kings Cross to beat the not before 10am time restriction on LNER out of Kings Cross. If I were to attempt board the 07.00 at Kings Cross with my ALR would I be denied access at the Barriers?
if i did get through, would the TM likely make me buy a ticket to Peterborough?

So is it worth risking getting the 07.00 from Kings Cross or just get thameslink and board at Peterborough? What are my chances of succeeding? Thanks for any help.

 

[andythebrave]

I am doing a 7 day 1st Class ALR end of September, and on one of they days I am doing 07.00 Kings Cross-Edinburgh on new Azuma, which aim to catch from Peterborough, using a Thameslink service from Kings Cross to beat the not before 10am time restriction on LNER out of Kings Cross. If I were to attempt board the 07.00 at Kings Cross with my ALR would I be denied access at the Barriers?
if i did get through, would the TM likely make me buy a ticket to Peterborough?

So is it worth risking getting the 07.00 from Kings Cross or just get thameslink and board at Peterborough? What are my chances of succeeding? Thanks for any help.

A single to Finsbury Park will do the trick.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I would think the barriers would stop you whatever time you try

 

[cuccir]

A single to Finsbury Park will do the trick.

Is that confirmed?

I understand the principle - that you're using rule 14.2

If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid

But unless someone has tried this or LNER has confirmed validity - in which case please correct me - I'd be very uncertain about advising it. The wording on the All Line Rover T&C is

The All Line Rail Rover is NOT valid for boarding or alighting train services

For this combination of tickets to be valid - a single to Finsbury Park and an ALR - you need to use the ALR to cover a period of travelling which can only be achieved having boarded at King's Cross. Whereas holidng a ticket to the first stop is somewhat different, as the ALR isn't being used to cover any validity from boarding at King's Cross.

While I see the argument you might make back - that the Finsbury Park ticket is being used to board, and then the ALR while on board - it seems much more messy to me than either using Thameslink to Peteborough or getting an Advance single on the train/date in question to Peterborough.

Happy to be corrected on this.

 

[Hadders]

There have been various discussions about this in the past and a Ticket to Finsbury Park is sufficient, albeit it that RDG would consider more draconian restrictions in the future if this becomes widespread.

The barriers at Kings Cross are not usually manned at 07:00 but in any case why would they reject a ticket to Finsbury Park?

 

[yorkie]

Ah, this again! Time to dig out some old posts..

This is a very important message from ATOC passed on to me from a very well connected person about the suggested use of splitting the ALR with a one stop ticket and is posted here with his permission...

It is counted under the National Conditions and this IS allowed. The problem is that ATOC have told me that if people do this then the only step left will be a total time restriction of, say, 1000 and that will kill it.

ATOC is aware of the Forum and are anxious as they don't want the rover killed off but are under pressure from some TOCs to prevent abuse - even if the 'abuse' is in fact legitimate.

If I recall correctly, Tom Cairns (of Realtimetrains) also did some investigating and spoke to someone at ATOC who basically said the same thing.

I heard something along the lines that if too many people (in particular business people) do it, they will make some changes to the conditions to prevent it.

The issue is that TOCs like Virgin Trains got upset that some people were buying ALRs instead of 7 day Seasons for journeys such as Manchester to London.

 

[andythebrave]

I would be very interested to learn what season tickets would be undercut by an ALR were time restrictions to be removed.

 

[HORNIMANS]

Catching a train at Peterborough is no problem with an ALR is no problem as there are no restrictions at any time. I would use Thameslink as there are no no no restrictions and will not cost you anything extra in fares!
I have used TL before when I have had an ALR using 0618 KX Plat 8 to Peterborough Arr 0734 Plat 2 then 0748[0700 Kings Cross] Plat 4 to Edinburgh.
You will still be able to have breakfast from there. Hope this helps, have a good trip.
Just an aside I have had ALR every year since I was 16 and have had the most wonderful times, AS a bonus i have a railcard and now travel FC all the time with this ticket.
I also never put ticket in barrier, go to barrier where there is Staff.

 

[David57]

I think that last sentence is good advice, you don't want your ALR 'swallowed up' and all the faff of retrieving it!

 

[kieron]

I would be very interested to learn what season tickets would be undercut by an ALR were time restrictions to be removed.

26 14 day all line rovers cost £20,696 (standard) or £31,616 (first).
A Morpeth-London annual season ticket costs £20,968 (standard) or £36,696 (first).
Derby-Glasgow is £22,798 (standard) or £37,426 (first), and isn't valid at any station afected by the ALR peak restrictions.

I wonder how many people actually make enough journeys like that by train to justify a season ticket.

 

[andythebrave]

26 14 day all line rovers cost £20,696 (standard) or £31,616 (first).
A Morpeth-London annual season ticket costs £20,968 (standard) or £36,696 (first).
Derby-Glasgow is £22,798 (standard) or £37,426 (first), and isn't valid at any station afected by the ALR peak restrictions.

I wonder how many people actually make enough journeys like that by train to justify a season ticket.

Let me think.... none?
So there is no justification for the restrictions.
It's a pity as I would probably have had at least one every year but won't pay for Milton Keynes to Wolverton or Bedford to Wellingborough on principle.

 

[cambsy]

I’ll probably just get the Thameslink from Kings cross to Peterborough then LNER to Edinburgh, so no major biggie, also I dont find the time restrictions too bad, especially on the 1st Class version, As when getting off the sleepers at Euston, I just go to the 1st class lounge and use the showers to freshen up and chill out till 10am or spend hour in Euston lounge then hour at Kings Cross lounge if catching LNER train.

the peak 10am restrictions are only Euston-St Pancras and Kings cross on intercity trains, so any other terminal including Paddington and Liverpool Street are useable before 10, and apart from Birmingham New street, where u can pass through but not get off at before 10am, there are no other peak restrictions on the whole network, so its easy enough to plan around the restrictions, the ALR is still to me a good value ticket especially in 1st class, as it about 37 a day more than standard, to get all the extras which come with it.

 

[Hadders]

It wouldn't help you connect into the 07:00 from KGX but Hull Trains and Grand Central are unrestricted.

 

[janb]

I was booking corporate travel when they brought in the restrictions. We had someone buying First Open returns from Preston to London (probably £400ish at that time, now £501) a couple of times in a 7 day period fairly regularly, and we realised that getting 7 day All Line Rover (currently £796) was much more cost effective. So we may have been part of the reason Virgin wanted to bring in restrictions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

So we may have been part of the reason Virgin wanted to bring in restrictions.

That's what happened, after Adonis did his ALR and made everyone aware of the ticket.

The driving force behind the restriction was, of course, the tax-dodging NHS-suing specimen that everyone on here seems to adore.

 

[Haywain]

We had someone buying First Open returns from Preston to London (probably £400ish at that time, now £501) a couple of times in a 7 day period fairly regularly, and we realised that getting 7 day All Line Rover (currently £796) was much more cost effective.

Similarly, where I was we had a regular traveller going to various destinations, always first class, who was finding it more cost effective to buy ALRs. I dubt the same would have happened for someone travelling standard class as they would have benefitted from Off-Peak fares.

 

[RJ]

I did a couple of FC ALRs after that rule came in. None of the guards on the early morning trains I took out of Kings Cross or Euston challenged my use of them. I did have the one stop tickets in my wallet but more hassle than it's worth to show them unless you have to.

 

[Clip]

Let me think.... none?
So there is no justification for the restrictions.
It's a pity as I would probably have had at least one every year but won't pay for Milton Keynes to Wolverton or Bedford to Wellingborough on principle.

Manchester to London x 5 days is more expensive in standard than the First class 7 day ALR is

 

[RJ]

Let me think.... none?
So there is no justification for the restrictions.
It's a pity as I would probably have had at least one every year but won't pay for Milton Keynes to Wolverton or Bedford to Wellingborough on principle.

At one point I'm pretty sure the ALR was cheaper than some SORs for which there was a market and significantly undercut long distance season ticket prices. Remember nobody is getting a large percentage of the revenue from ALRs as they would with SORs.

From a commercial point of view I think there were some quite compelling reasons for having it restricted but from a customer point of view it's obviously not great. But if the alternative is not having it at all then I think the current arrangement is ok.