ALR validity lost due to illness - Refund issues and advice?

[Death]

Hail all!
As most of ye will probabally remember, I took a one week ALR at the start of the month so that I could explore of a lot of the network before ATOC hiked up the prices. Unfortunateley I had the misfortune to fall ill during the trip, and had to spend that weekend recovering at a friends place in Derby insted of continuing my tour, as I was not in a fit state to travel and didn't want to pass what I had (I think it was probabally 'Flu) onto other passengers and staff.

After returning from my trip, I sent a letter to SWT (As the issuing TOC) outlining the fact that I had fallen ill during the trip, had consequently lost three days of my Rover's validity as a result, and asked if a part refund or three-day ALR of some description could be issued for the three days that I would otherwise have used as originally intended.

However, I just received the following response to my letter from SWT after a good two week wait, and - To be honest - I'm not particularly happy about their stand-point on the matter...

Dear Mr. B
Thank you for your letter of 15 May 2009.

I am sorry to learn that you were taken ill and did not use the All Line Rover over the weekend.

However, whilst your comments are noted, refunds are not given on Rail Rover tickets, unless they are returned before the start date shown on them.

Thank you again for taking the time to contact us.

Yours sincerely
[Signature]
Linda Lipscombe
Customer Relations Officer

Now as it happens, I'd managed to use the Tuesday-Friday part of my ALR perfectly fine, and it wasn't until about midday Friday that I was starting to feel a bit off colour...Something that I initially put down to the rather hot climate inside ScotRail's trains. However as I was feeling worse and worse after leaving Edinburgh, and eventually pulled a move over to Derby ASAP as I was certain that things wern't going to plan. Upon arrival, I was feeling particularly bad inside...And was very thankful that I had a friend in the Midlands with a spare guest room, given that getting to my own home would've been an atrocious strain. ad:

The simple nay and justification that South West Trains have given above feels a bit insulting to me on it's own, given that I originally sent them a sufficiently in-depth and comprehensive two-page letter detailing the issue...But what particularly galvanises me is that they appear to have simply quoted straight from the rule book in this instance, and don't appear to have applied any degree of consideration or common sense to the issue whatsoever.

Personally I feel that I should be entitled to those three lost days of my ALR back, especially as it's neither possible nor reasonable for me to know in advance when I may or may not fall ill. I don't think it's fair that I should have to lose three days of ALR travel due to something that's fully beyond my control (Especially given that it might've been caused by the environment on board trains for all I know!) and it wouldn't cost the TOCs anything for me to have those days back as I've already paid for them. :roll:

What I would like to ask other people here is what would be the best course of action for me to take from this point? At the moment I'm thinking that a letter of appeal to SWT might be a wise approach, but are there any other organisations to whom I could copy the appeal letter in the hope that they (The ORR if it still exists, or the Office of Fair Trading maybe?) would overrule SWTs current decision, and ensure that the three days of ALR validity that I have lost (Through no fault of my own) are returned to me in some way or another?
Also, is anyone aware of anything in the refund rulebooks that covers this kind of situation? Given that illness is not something that can reasonably be predicted or controlled, shouldn't the refund rules favour the passenger in such cases?

So...At this current stage, I'm understandably rather peeved off with SWT for being (It would appear) rather inconsiderate of the matter at hand, and as far as I'm concerned this issue is far from being resolved. After all...The line that I'm inclined to take is that I've paid for seven days of travel, and seven days is what I should have - And though my understanding of consumer law is rather limited, I imagine that it would suggest something similar to my own view. Of course, if a 7 in 14 ALR had been available for my trip (Which I would've chosen over my "fixed seven" to allow for any such matters arising en-route) then I wouldn't have had this problem in the first place! :roll:

Farewell for now, and thanks in advance for any advice offered!
>> Death <<

 

[thefab444]

Firstly, why do you want SWT to refund you for being forced to rest in Derby after catching an illness in Scotland. Secondly, sometimes in life you have to put up with things, maybe you should be more appreciative that you're still alive, and not dead, rather than moaning about how you lost some of your ALR - nobody stopped you from travelling; you took that choice. Thirldy, how are SWT supposed to know you are a trustworthy character? For all they know, you may not even have bought an ALR, let alone not used three of the days... you could just be swindling a free few days' worth of journeys out of them. There's no proof you didn't use the days you claimed you didn't.

Sorry, but I agree with SWT's stance. I'm sure a few folk will give you some advice on how to get something back out of them, but morally they are right. You bought a ticket warranting 7 consecutive days of travel on the UK Rail Network. You fell ill. You therefore didn't use 3 of the days. You can't expect them to suddenly conjure up a 3 day ALR just because you supposedly fell ill. Essentially what that email (and myself) is saying is "**** Happens".

I caught a cold when I went to London once and fell awful for a few days, can I have a few days worth of FC returns to Wick because I was going to do those trips but couldn't because I was ill?!

Sorry I couldn't be of further assistance.

 

[A60K]

It's a very unfortunate situation from your point of view - not really your fault that you lost some of the days, but even more so nothing to do with the train companies.

I've been in a similar situation before with not being able to make full use of a one day travelcard, having to return home after the first journey due to a twisted ankle. That one journey and return was still cheaper on the travelcard however, compared to a normal return ticket.

Not that this will have any bearing on your case, but how much would the single 'walk-up' tickets for the journeys you did make have cost?

In all honesty I don't think that there will be anything in law on your side about this. While you could try to pursue the matter, I really wouldn't expect to get anything.

 

[glynn80]

Hail all!
After returning from my trip, I sent a letter to SWT (As the issuing TOC) outlining the fact that I had fallen ill during the trip, had consequently lost three days of my Rover's validity as a result, and asked if a part refund or three-day ALR of some description could be issued for the three days that I would otherwise have used as originally intended.

However, I just received the following response to my letter from SWT after a good two week wait, and - To be honest - I'm not particularly happy about their stand-point on the matter... Now as it happens, I'd managed to use the Tuesday-Friday part of my ALR perfectly fine, and it wasn't until about midday Friday that I was starting to feel a bit off colour...Something that I initially put down to the rather hot climate inside ScotRail's trains. However as I was feeling worse and worse after leaving Edinburgh, and eventually pulled a move over to Derby ASAP as I was certain that things wern't going to plan. Upon arrival, I was feeling particularly bad inside...And was very thankful that I had a friend in the Midlands with a spare guest room, given that getting to my own home would've been an atrocious strain. ad:

SWT may have been the issuing TOC, but after sale of the All Line Rover, the fare revenue is then distributed among the TOCs using passenger demand forecasts based on the probability you will travel on any one TOC.

It is not just as simple for them to divide the ALR by 7 days and then multiply by 3 and give you that money back.

If the ALR had not been used at all, then they could have sent a refund form off and the money that was originally sent to the individual TOCs, would be retrieved, this is slightly simpler in the fact that the revenue being retrived is the same as the revenue paid out but crucially this only occurs on wholly unused tickets. It is still an accounting nightmare and is the reason that refunds take two weeks to process.

The simple nay and justification that South West Trains have given above feels a bit insulting to me on it's own, given that I originally sent them a sufficiently in-depth and comprehensive two-page letter detailing the issue...But what particularly galvanises me is that they appear to have simply quoted straight from the rule book in this instance, and don't appear to have applied any degree of consideration or common sense to the issue whatsoever.

Personally I feel that I should be entitled to those three lost days of my ALR back, especially as it's neither possible nor reasonable for me to know in advance when I may or may not fall ill. I don't think it's fair that I should have to lose three days of ALR travel due to something that's fully beyond my control (Especially given that it might've been caused by the environment on board trains for all I know!) and it wouldn't cost the TOCs anything for me to have those days back as I've already paid for them. :roll:

I think it is you who are not giving it any common sense. Of course you cannot predict when you are going to fall ill and there is a perfectly reasonable product to cover you for such eventualities- travel insurance! If you decide not to purchase travel insurance and expect SWT to foot the bill when you fall ill, then you are extremely naive.

Another fact to point out is that there is not actual way to prove that you did not use the rover in question. You claim to of been holed up in Derby for three days but for all SWT know you were still gallivanting across the country.

What I would like to ask other people here is what would be the best course of action for me to take from this point? At the moment I'm thinking that a letter of appeal to SWT might be a wise approach, but are there any other organisations to whom I could copy the appeal letter in the hope that they (The ORR if it still exists, or the Office of Fair Trading maybe?) would overrule SWTs current decision, and ensure that the three days of ALR validity that I have lost (Through no fault of my own) are returned to me in some way or another?

Your best course of action is to drop this whole ridiculous "SWT owe me" attitude and just accept that it wasn't their fault either that you fell ill. You decided that you did not need travel insurance on your trip and paid the consequences for it. You state it wasn't your fault you fell ill but your acting as if it was SWT's.

Also, is anyone aware of anything in the refund rulebooks that covers this kind of situation? Given that illness is not something that can reasonably be predicted or controlled, shouldn't the refund rules favour the passenger in such cases?

Yes the refund rulebook states that if a ticket has been used in nearly all circumstances it cannot be refunded. Your only refund rights are on ticket which have not been used.

In the case of Rail Rover's the FRPP states the following:

Refunds on Rail Rovers, car parking and accompanied articles & animals

Rail Rovers and Rangers
Refunds are not generally allowed on Rail Rover tickets unless they are returned before the start date shown on them.

So...At this current stage, I'm understandably rather peeved off with SWT for being (It would appear) rather inconsiderate of the matter at hand, and as far as I'm concerned this issue is far from being resolved. After all...The line that I'm inclined to take is that I've paid for seven days of travel, and seven days is what I should have - And though my understanding of consumer law is rather limited, I imagine that it would suggest something similar to my own view. Of course, if a 7 in 14 ALR had been available for my trip (Which I would've chosen over my "fixed seven" to allow for any such matters arising en-route) then I wouldn't have had this problem in the first place! :roll:

I can only suggest if you feel your in the right in consumer law then take SWT to Small Claims Court. SWT clearly laid out the terms for you that they will give you in exchange for £X amount of money, 7 days consecutive travel, they provided that and it was you who did not take the last 3 days.

Next time get travel insurance! and stop moaning when your taxpayer funded ALR trip gets cancelled.

 

[theblackwatch]

I'm with Glynn80 on this one. In my 30+ years of cranking, I've had the odd occasion when I haven't been able to do a trip because of illness. One time I had an AP ticket and just wrote it off - I don't bother with insurance for this sort of thing and that's my own choice. At the end of the day, it's one of those risks in life, and with the money I've saved over the years with AP tickets I've still done pretty well with my savings on full fares. I imagine that had you paid full fares for the trips you did on the 4 days of your ALR, it would have cost more than the ALR itself.

 

[Mojo]

Travel insurance might be worth considering. I pay something like £20 per annum for mine which covers me for all trips where I am staying away for more than one night in paid accommodation or where I have paid for the travel.

 

[Death]

Hail again!
I've not got much time available this morning, so I'm going to have to clatter through this briefly and apologise for typing errors and ommissions.

Firstly, why do you want SWT to refund you for being forced to rest in Derby after catching an illness in Scotland.

As SWT were the TOC that sold me the rover, they are the ones to whom any claims regarding that rover would need to be addressed...Or at least that's what the Guard on the last service I used told me.
My claim isn't just aimed at SWT, it's aimed at the ATOC themselves as it's an ATOC ticket. However, it's SWT that would receive and process any claim on my behalf. Additionally, I sent a copy of my original letter to ATOC's main offices as well, although I've heard nowt from them as yet - Probabally won't as SWT have already handled it.

Secondly, sometimes in life you have to put up with things, maybe you should be more appreciative that you're still alive, and not dead, rather than moaning about how you lost some of your ALR - nobody stopped you from travelling; you took that choice.

My "choice" was a decision made by myself for the benefit and safety of other passengers and railway staff, and was done in consideration of the same...Especially as everyone was crapping themselves over Swine Flu at the time.
True, I could have continued my journey regardless if I'd wished...But then I might've infected hundreds (If not thousands) of people throughout the country with the bug, and if enough rail staff had been caught by it that might've caused some serious network issues through staff shortages!

In short: Aye, I might've been able to continue my journey had I wished...But it would've been the most inconsiderate and ****ish thing for me to do so. How would ye feel if someone - Who knew they had an infectious condition - Still chose to travel regardless, sit next to thee and thy family, and infected ye and thy children with whatever it is he had?

Thirldy, how are SWT supposed to know you are a trustworthy character? For all they know, you may not even have bought an ALR, let alone not used three of the days... you could just be swindling a free few days' worth of journeys out of them. There's no proof you didn't use the days you claimed you didn't.

Actually, my request was sent in writing through the post and not as an e-mail. I also enclosed photos of my ALR (Which bore my name) and my Railcard at the end of the letter as proof of purchase.

Sorry, but I agree with SWT's stance. I'm sure a few folk will give you some advice on how to get something back out of them, but morally they are right. You bought a ticket warranting 7 consecutive days of travel on the UK Rail Network. You fell ill. You therefore didn't use 3 of the days. You can't expect them to suddenly conjure up a 3 day ALR just because you supposedly fell ill. Essentially what that email (and myself) is saying is "**** Happens".

The main issue here is that I was intending to perform seven days of intense travel - Which was going perfectly well until I fell ill - On what was my first and could well be the only ALR that I will ever get a hold of. However thanks to some inconsiderate [Expletive deleted] somewhere along the line I wound up catching a bug and only managing four of those days, which completely screwed up my holiday/railtour, and also totally stuffed my hopes of setting a record for the most coverage in seven days, too!

Although I agree in principle with what ye are saying - That it's no more the TOCs fault then mine that I fell ill and had to stop - The other matter here is that ATOC are corporate bodies who can easily afford to issue a pro-rata refund of the unused days or produce a three-day ALR, whereas the likelyhood of me being able to afford another seven day ALR (Especially at the new prices) any time within the next year or two is pretty slim. Indeed...Given that a refund would come as RTVs and a three-day ALR would simply be another printed ticket, it wouldn't cost ATOC anything out of the ordinary to produce either refund anyway! :roll:

Not that this will have any bearing on your case, but how much would the single 'walk-up' tickets for the journeys you did make have cost?

I havn't been able to cost it up yet and probabally won't manage it for a while as I never get time to even use the toilet nowadays...But it's something that's well worth looking at.

I can't remember how far I went or how many services I used over those four days (I recently archived the trip records as part of a clear-up in the home) but the two sleeper journeys that I managed were GLC > EUS and EUS > INV respectively, if that gives an initial starting figure.
Bear in mind though that when I was travelling, the NFM 02 fares were still in effect.

In all honesty I don't think that there will be anything in law on your side about this. While you could try to pursue the matter, I really wouldn't expect to get anything.

I'm not planning on taking it up too high as that would be a real pain in the backside for everyone ionvolved, and if I can keep it between myself and ATOC then that'll be best, although I'm still considering my options.
I may still write a letter of appeal to SWT asking them to reconsider the whole situation and other applicable factors that I believe justify a part refund, especially as there's nothing wrong whatsoever with asking...But only the Gods know what'll eventually come about.

SWT may have been the issuing TOC, but after sale of the All Line Rover, the fare revenue is then distributed among the TOCs using passenger demand forecasts based on the probability you will travel on any one TOC.
It is not just as simple for them to divide the ALR by 7 days and then multiply by 3 and give you that money back.

If the ALR had not been used at all, then they could have sent a refund form off and the money that was originally sent to the individual TOCs, would be retrieved, this is slightly simpler in the fact that the revenue being retrived is the same as the revenue paid out but crucially this only occurs on wholly unused tickets. It is still an accounting nightmare and is the reason that refunds take two weeks to process.

Ahh, cheers for the info there Glynn...I did wonder why it took SWT a while to get back to my enquiry!
I didn't realise that the ALR funding worked out that way though...And assuming the same applies to normal tickets that cover multiple TOCs; Is this why splitting tickets can be cheaper than straight-up tickets?

I think it is you who are not giving it any common sense. Of course you cannot predict when you are going to fall ill and there is a perfectly reasonable product to cover you for such eventualities- travel insurance! If you decide not to purchase travel insurance and expect SWT to foot the bill when you fall ill, then you are extremely naive.

Travel insurance might be worth considering. I pay something like £20 per annum for mine which covers me for all trips where I am staying away for more than one night in paid accommodation or where I have paid for the travel.

Aye, I'm well aware of travel insurance and what it does, and I never leave the UK without it and my trusty EHIC...Especially given how high medical bills can be in countries like Germany, which are federal states that have no national health service!

However...On the occasions in the past when I have tried to purchase travel insurance for trips within the UK (Lake District 2003CE, Bloodstock Open Air 2006CE and others) I've never been able to get a policy that'll covers me...All of the insurers that I've tried have said that their travel insurance only covers trips outside the UK, and won't cover anything that happens inside British borders! Thus - Although I've always taken insurance for trips abroad - I've always been under the belief that whilst holidaying in the UK I have to rely entirely on our legal system and the NHS, as internal trip insurance doesn't appear to be available!

Another fact to point out is that there is not actual way to prove that you did not use the rover in question. You claim to of been holed up in Derby for three days but for all SWT know you were still gallivanting across the country.

I don't know if my mobile provider keeps logs of each customer's handset or not...But my mobile was on for most of the trip, and GSM transmitter entry/exit logs would probabally correlate my story.

...and stop moaning when your taxpayer funded ALR trip gets cancelled.

With all due respect, I strongly resent that comment. Although I will openly admit that I'm currently in receipt of the IS, DLA, HB and CTB benefits, that is because I have been proven - Through medical examination, reports from previous employers, and several failed attempts at employment over the years - To be medically incapable of holding employment due to having a curse upon every single aspect of my existance an Autism based learning disability!

To be perfectly honest; If I was in the slightest degree capable of gaining and retaining employment of any description, do ye seriously believe that I would choose to live an existance on the Benefits system? Although I know that there are a lot of people who are capable of employment but exploit the system for all that it's worth, some of us are forced by curse and circumstance to live a life on Government handouts, despite the fact that a good 80% of the people in my kind of situation actually desire full-time employment more than anything else! hock:

Unfortunateley however, any attempt that we make at gaining and retaining employment is bound to fail...Especially as those of us with "hidden" disabilities tend often to be discriminated against in application and selection, despite the threats against such actions that lie deep the Disibility Discrimination Acts...Although they choose to discriminate against myself and my ken for the fact that we have disabilities, the Nithings employers in question simply choose some other area of our applications that can be exploited, then reject us on those grounds insted!
To this day, I still ask myself if it's just a coincidence that - Of myself and two other people who passed the aptitude tests to join a certain TOC - The one candidate chosen for the position happened to be an African gentleman, as opposed to myself and the third candidate (A lady) who were both Caucasians...

I simply cannot put into words just how greatly I detest the troth that I am forced to live on a contribution from other people's pockets, to say nothing of the shame that I feel deep within me from being cursed to lead such an existance! Though I have on many occasions sought to find some form of task that I could perform, it would appear that my options are extremely limited - Especially given that some of my greatest skills lie in arts that became obsolete with the widespread adoption of firearms and other "advances" in warfare!

Farewell for now...
>> Death <<

 

[djw1981]

Uk travel insurance just refuunds you if you cannot complete your journies - may need GP letter to support this. It has no health benefits such as repatriation etc. It is very very very very very different to EHIC etc. EHIC is a state scheme for health insurance.

Travel insurance would kick in if you broke your leg before a holiday and had to stay in hospital, if a relative died and you had to cancel the holiday etc.

For Post Office insurance
http://www.postoffice.co.uk/portal/po/content1?catId=89500762&mediaId=72600718 and http://www.postoffice.co.uk/portal/po/content1?catId=63300708&mediaId=19500187 apply