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Alstom Aventra Hydrogen

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Clansman

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Far north lines?
I don't think there's anything to gain at the minute by offing the 158s from there. Capacity isn't needed, and your diminishing the quality of the rolling stock for those undertaking a 3 hour+ journey. Also you confine the Aventras to a pretty linear route that's cut off from any rotation around the network (which ScotRail have thrived off of for the best part of 20+ years), and you create another fleet for Inverness to maintain plus creating a situation where more Inverness 158s have no need to be there in the first place.

And when the 156s have been touted for replacing in the next 3 or 4 years, that's why the GSWR sticks out - routes that need lower dwell times, greater off-peak capacity, and greener more efficient rolling stock. It feels like a pretty direct like for like replacement on the remaining DMU legs out of Central.

Though 10 wouldn't really be enough I'd imagine.
 
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D365

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I don't think there's anything to gain at the minute by offing the 158s from there. Capacity isn't needed, and your diminishing the quality of the rolling stock for those undertaking a 3 hour+ journey...
What's stopping the Aventra from being configured in a similar manner? I thought the idea behind hydrogen was to replace diesel on long distance, low traffic routes.
 

hwl

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Presumably these will have 24m vehicles like most of the other Aventras?

I wonder if 10 units are enough to operate all services to Fort William/Mallaig and Oban from Glasgow? Though if Scotrail have just finished their "new" class 153 luggage vans, I doubt they'd want to immediately replace them with brand new stock.
5 rather than 4 windows between the doors suggests 24m (if the rendering is correct)

The Hydrogen 321s are related to these Aventras. Given the little evident progress on the Hydrogen 321s, one does have to wonder if that's either been quietly ditched or now planned only as a testbed (much like the converted 314).
As I have been saying for years: A good Hydrogen MU needs an optimised efficient BEMU as platform and starting with a retractioned 321 isn't the best in that regards. (Batteries circa halve (or more) the peak power requirement from fuel cells).
 
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Bletchleyite

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Would free up 158s for the WHL, although since it is a rural (and cold!) long distance route it might make more sense to keep 158s because of the end doors. It's not like there aren't going to be any other free 158s hanging around...

You can fit vestibule doors to doors-at-thirds units, but I'm really not convinced this is anywhere near as much of an issue it used to be now exterior doors automatically close after a short time, given particularly that the stations are mostly low-usage so you'll likely only have one opened per station anyway.

But this is more about the technology. It's being fitted to a generic regional EMU because they have a generic regional EMU platform available and it's a trial of the concept. It could I'm sure be fitted to something that looked more Class 444 or 80x-like if that was to be ordered by ScotRail.

5 rather than 4 windows between the doors suggests 24m (if the rendering is correct)

Possibly 23 given the use of the short cab, but indeed not 20.

Though 10 wouldn't really be enough I'd imagine.

The 10 are intended for specific trial routes in the North East, aren't they? Theoretically it's more than needed, but new stock and new tech has a habit of teething troubles, so presumably to look good they are allocating more units to the trials than you would normally need.

I don't think there's anything to gain at the minute by offing the 158s from there. Capacity isn't needed, and your diminishing the quality of the rolling stock for those undertaking a 3 hour+ journey.

I think that's door-position prejudice. There are no renderings of inside; it could well be a Class 185-like low density layout with seats aligned to windows for all we know. And I find the Class 380s have a very InterCity feel to them - the long centre section helps.
 

hwl

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You can fit vestibule doors to doors-at-thirds units, but I'm really not convinced this is anywhere near as much of an issue it used to be now exterior doors automatically close after a short time, given particularly that the stations are mostly low-usage so you'll likely only have one opened per station anyway.

But this is more about the technology. It's being fitted to a generic regional EMU because they have a generic regional EMU platform available and it's a trial of the concept. It could I'm sure be fitted to something that looked more Class 444 or 80x-like if that was to be ordered by ScotRail.
Agreed auto door close makes a big difference. (Which suggests those complaining aren't familiar with using Electrostar or Aventras in winter)
Possibly 23 given the use of the short cab, but indeed not 20.
Inner ends of outer vehicles (and inner vehicles) match 720 and 730. the only difference is forward of the 720 driver door hence 24.54m end vehicle of the 720/730 will probably match the inner vehicle length of 24.21m



The 10 are intended for specific trial routes in the North East, aren't they? Theoretically it's more than needed, but new stock and new tech has a habit of teething troubles, so presumably to look good they are allocating more units to the trials than you would normally need.



I think that's door-position prejudice. There are no renderings of inside; it could well be a Class 185-like low density layout with seats aligned to windows for all we know. And I find the Class 380s have a very InterCity feel to them - the long centre section helps.

321 Breeze - The key bit not quoted from the press release:

Alstom and Eversholt Rail have previously worked together on a hydrogen rolling stock solution for the UK rail sector, through the proposed conversion of an existing Electric Multiple Unit to hydrogen power – the ‘Breeze’ project.
Both companies now believe that there is a market for a fleet of new trains for use by train operators across Britain.
The breadth, depth of knowledge and experience gained from the Breeze project, together with stakeholder feedback on future fleet strategies, has been invaluable in shaping the product planning.
 

Mikey C

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As an aside, this is the first instance of old and new Alstom in the UK working together, when you consider that Alstom had been leading the efforts on Hydrogen power in the UK before they took over Bombardier

If they hadn't taken over Derby, then I doubt we would have got a Hydrogen powered Aventra!
 

hwl

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As an aside, this is the first instance of old and new Alstom in the UK working together, when you consider that Alstom had been leading the efforts on Hydrogen power in the UK before they took over Bombardier

If they hadn't taken over Derby, then I doubt we would have got a Hydrogen powered Aventra!
Indeed Siemens and Bombardier being sceptical about Hydrogen but far further ahead on battery technology which is a key requirement for Hydrogen and Bombardier having a current UK platform that was actually selling. The Aventra is a huge gain vs the 321 starting point.
 

hwl

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I think they are absolutely right that there is a significant market - all those 15x need replacing.
Not as significant as Battery MUs though which will probably be at least 5x larger.

This order is in the likely ~7.5% of the HMU market with much to be gained from being in follow on orders and standardisation (avoiding microfleets).

Many 15x replacements (or cascades to do so indirectly) will end up being BMUs.

BMUs have lower operating costs than DMUs, HMU operating costs are significantly higher than DMU.
 

BayPaul

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I don't think there's anything to gain at the minute by offing the 158s from there. Capacity isn't needed, and your diminishing the quality of the rolling stock for those undertaking a 3 hour+ journey. Also you confine the Aventras to a pretty linear route that's cut off from any rotation around the network (which ScotRail have thrived off of for the best part of 20+ years), and you create another fleet for Inverness to maintain plus creating a situation where more Inverness 158s have no need to be there in the first place.
There's one big thing to gain - decarbonising Scotland's rail network, which is a big headline commitment. Hydrogen is probably the only sensible solution for the Far North and West Highland lines. I think that the Scottish Government will push hard for this, even if it means slightly less suitable trains, microfleets and operational inefficiencies
 

Bletchleyite

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Not as significant as Battery MUs though which will probably be at least 5x larger.

This order is in the likely ~7.5% of the HMU market with much to be gained from being in follow on orders and standardisation (avoiding microfleets).

Many 15x replacements (or cascades to do so indirectly) will end up being BMUs.

BMUs have lower operating costs than DMUs, HMU operating costs are significantly higher than DMU.

I think what you'd be doing is looking to replace 15x with one fleet of EMUs. As a base, all should have pantographs and transformers (because if you're under the wires, even at a station only, why not use them and reduce the hydrogen usage?) Then, most will have batteries. Finally, some, for use on the very long unelectrified lines, would have fuel cells to charge those batteries.

That way you've not really got a microfleet, just a small number with one additional module.
 

BayPaul

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I think what you'd be doing is looking to replace 15x with one fleet of EMUs. As a base, all should have pantographs and transformers (because if you're under the wires, even at a station only, why not use them?) Then, most will have batteries. Finally, some, for use on the very long unelectrified lines, would have fuel cells to charge those batteries.

That way you've not really got a microfleet, just a small number with one additional module.
That would certainly be ideal. I suspect that the space requirements for Hydrogen may make it more than just an additional module - though at least using the same platform will help. What would also help would be to identify all of the lines for which Hydrogen is the long-term solution, and then order one big fleet for use all over the country. At least heavy maintenance could then be centralised, even if locally there were microfleets.
 

hwl

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I think what you'd be doing is looking to replace 15x with one fleet of EMUs. As a base, all should have pantographs and transformers (because if you're under the wires, even at a station only, why not use them?) Then, most will have batteries. Finally, some, for use on the very long unelectrified lines, would have fuel cells to charge those batteries.

That way you've not really got a microfleet, just a small number with one additional module.
Partly agreed. Within a region or TOC "Yes" but nationally as single supplier? (I'm not sure an inevitable low bid from CAF is the way to go!). e.g. Standardise within Scotland

All BEMUs and most HMUs should have OHLE power options.

That would certainly be ideal. I suspect that the space requirements for Hydrogen may make it more than just an additional module - though at least using the same platform will help. What would also help would be to identify all of the lines for which Hydrogen is the long-term solution, and then order one big fleet for use all over the country. At least heavy maintenance could then be centralised, even if locally there were microfleets.
Version 2 of TDNS is somewhat overdue.
 

TRAX

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Indeed Siemens and Bombardier being sceptical about Hydrogen but far further ahead on battery technology which is a key requirement for Hydrogen and Bombardier having a current UK platform that was actually selling. The Aventra is a huge gain vs the 321 starting point.

Siemens does have a hydrogen version of its Mireo.
 

Mikey C

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Bombardier Derby chose not to replace the Turbostar with a DMU version of the Aventra (enabling CAF to get a foothold in the UK), but under Alstom ownership have once again entered the "self powered" market!

Are HMUs are all or nothing rather than Bimodes? If so, they'd be a waste on routes partially under the wires.
 

Bletchleyite

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Bombardier Derby chose not to replace the Turbostar with a DMU version of the Aventra (enabling CAF to get a foothold in the UK), but under Alstom ownership have once again entered the "self powered" market!

Are HMUs are all or nothing rather than Bimodes? If so, they'd be a waste on routes partially under the wires.

Given that fuel cells generate electricity (so the underlying unit is basically an EMU) I can see no reason you couldn't have a bimode hydrogen unit.
 

hwl

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Bombardier Derby chose not to replace the Turbostar with a DMU version of the Aventra (enabling CAF to get a foothold in the UK), but under Alstom ownership have once again entered the "self powered" market!

Are HMUs are all or nothing rather than Bimodes? If so, they'd be a waste on routes partially under the wires.
Bombardier submitted several Aventra based bi-mode bid options (e.g. EMR).

HMUs can be entirely self powered ("all or nothing") or bi tri-modes.

They always have an electric traction system with battery as a base though.
 

Mikey C

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Bombardier submitted several Aventra based bi-mode bid options (e.g. EMR).

HMUs can be entirely self powered ("all or nothing") or bi tri-modes.

They always have an electric traction system with battery as a base though.
Wasn't that well after they lost the Northern contract to CAF, due to not offering a DMU, and well after Stadler had won Great Anglia's bimode order?
 

option

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There's one big thing to gain - decarbonising Scotland's rail network, which is a big headline commitment. Hydrogen is probably the only sensible solution for the Far North and West Highland lines. I think that the Scottish Government will push hard for this, even if it means slightly less suitable trains, microfleets and operational inefficiencies

It's already in the plans for Scotland, but they're planning to deal with the 'difficult' routes last, as that gives time for various technologies to mature.
The environmental benefits from getting Perth, Dundee, Aberdeen, & the commuter routes around Glasgow & Edinburgh electrified massively outweigh the impact from the Far North & WHL.
 

supervc-10

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A HMU should have some batteries too, to take advantage of regenerative braking.

I'm still unconvinced about hydrogen however, personally, although it might make sense for certain longer less trafficked routes like the WHL or Cambrian. I think most routes need electrification or battery units. Things like the Chiltern line absolutely need electrification, and battery units with rapid charging at termini or charging en route could do well on things like the Uckfield line or Henley or whatever.
 

Bletchleyite

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A HMU should have some batteries too, to take advantage of regenerative braking.

I'm still unconvinced about hydrogen however, personally, although it might make sense for certain longer less trafficked routes like the WHL or Cambrian. I think most routes need electrification or battery units. Things like the Chiltern line absolutely need electrification, and battery units with rapid charging at termini or charging en route could do well on things like the Uckfield line or Henley or whatever.

There are plenty of longish routes which just aren't going to be electrified any time soon, and thus need solutions like this if they are not to close, here are a few:

  • Far North
  • West Highland
  • Cumbrian Coast (Barrow-Carlisle)
  • S&C
  • Bentham Line (may work with batteries)
  • Whitby
  • Conwy Valley (may work with batteries)
  • Newcastle-Carlisle
That lot would get you a reasonably sized order. Clearly short diesel extensions off wired/third rail routes would work with batteries (e.g. Barrow-Manchester, Uckfield, Windermere, Southport, Kirkby etc) and urban metros all need the wires (e.g. Snow Hill lines, east Manchester suburban services, Atherton Line), but not these longer ones.
 

hwl

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A HMU should have some batteries too, to take advantage of regenerative braking.

See my numerous post on this and other threads: an HMU is a BMU with Hydrogen capability added.
battery units with rapid charging at termini or charging en route could do well on things like the Uckfield line or Henley or whatever.
Or you electrify the first easy few miles off the electrified (main)line to eliminate the short turnaround time for terminal charging at some locations e.g. Windermere, Henley etc.
 

Bletchleyite

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See my numerous post on this and other threads: an HMU is a BMU with Hydrogen capability added.

Or you electrify the first easy few miles off the electrified (main)line to eliminate the short turnaround time for terminal charging at some locations e.g. Windermere

Yep, Windermere needs electrifying, it would be a cheap quick win.

Henley etc.

Yep, I imagine these short branches could just be tagged onto the mainline and so run with EMUs.
 

supervc-10

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I get what you mean @Bletchleyite - which is why I suggested the WHL! I don't think I worded it brilliantly. I was thinking more of the suggestions that some people have made of wholesale replacement of diesel with HMUs. There are edge cases, and I'd agree with your list of routes there, but there are a lot more DMUs being used on routes like Portsmouth-Cardiff, or all the suburban routes around Manchester, or whatever, where HMUs just don't make sense for the long-run, and where if you look beyond the next 5 years (very difficult for a politician to do...) then it makes a lot more sense to spend the cash now on electrification.

The issue Henley (and the other GWML branches) has is that it's difficult to timetable them in- I don't think there are any direct Henley-Paddington services at the moment and I don't think there have been for quite some time, hence me thinking about wiring the bay at Twyford and using that as a 'charging' station.

Windermere though should have been wired ages ago... which is kind of my point. We should have been electrifying routes decades ago!

Regarding long-term diesel use- note that the talk is around 'net zero' and that doesn't completely preclude the use of diesel. I'm quite sure you could run a 195 on chip fat with a little bit of work on the seals!

@hwl thank you for clarifying! This is the method that Toyota's Mirai uses, with the battery as a 'buffer' for demand and also something to soak up regen.
 

Domh245

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@hwl thank you for clarifying! This is the method that Toyota's Mirai uses, with the battery as a 'buffer' for demand and also something to soak up regen.

Batteries are an inherent part of fuel cells outside of a full grid - they are best thought of as a range extending trickle charger (though not limited to just trickle charging, you can use the energy directly) than an actual motive power source. Sizing a fuel cell big enough to meet peak power demands gets expensive, voluminous, and massive quickly, plus fuel cells are not hugely efficient outside of their operating point. The regeneration benefit is almost secondary, but is if huge assistance to maximise efficiency (and reduce the amount of hydrogen kit being carried around)
 

Mikey C

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Won't refuelling the depots be the key issue with Hydrogen powered trains, thus they need to be operated near a source of the fuel, hence talk about routes in areas like Teeside, rather than quiet branch lines in the southeast
 
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