Alstom get EU approval to buy Bombardier and will soon own Derby...

[Energy]

Train manufacturing has some surges of demand and some times of low demand which is usually not a problem if you are able to export stock to other countries but is a problem if you can not. UK rolling stock orders are doing fine at the moment as large amounts of trains are being needed to replace old ones but soon the orders will slow down for the UK market which is when we will see jobs lost as we don't really compete for rolling stock orders outside the UK.

 

[the sniper]

GEC itself lost interest after a decade of JV with Alsthom, preferring to concentrate on telecoms and defence.

Though to be fair, it's hard to say 'GEC itself lost interest' in it, as the continuity of (sensible, though unfashionable) thinking at GEC was essentially broken when Lord Weinstock retired in 1996. Maybe you could say the Shareholders lost interest, while Lord Simpson and his cronies had little interest in the traditional GEC at all, to the extent that they very managed to quickly destroy it!

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Though to be fair, it's hard to say 'GEC itself lost interest' in it, as the continuity of (sensible, though unfashionable) thinking at GEC was essentially broken when Lord Weinstock retired in 1996. Maybe you could say the Shareholders lost interest, while Lord Simpson and his cronies had little interest in the traditional GEC at all, to the extent that they very managed to quickly destroy it!

Oh don't. I've probably still got my Marconi share certificates in a file somewhere.

 

[Mikey C]

We will never be able to realistically compete in mainland Europe as our trains and railway are so different

 

[the sniper]

Oh don't. I've probably still got my Marconi share certificates in a file somewhere.

You should dig it out, it's probably worth more on Ebay than your shares were in May 2003!

 

[LOL The Irony]

We will never be able to realistically compete in mainland Europe as our trains and railway are so different

If Siemens or hitachi could do it, I don't think they're that different.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Ironic that many of the early railways of Europe were built by British companies (eg Thomas Brassey) or with British assistance.
Robert Stephenson and others often supplied the first locomotives (eg in Germany, Austria and Italy, even in Russia).
But the indigenous railway companies soon developed their own capability, sometimes specifically to stop the need to import expensive equipment from the UK.
The USA had a policy after the civil war to build with local steel, hence the growth of places like Pittsburgh (by a Scot!) and development of the American standard locos.
UK exports were then increasingly to the Empire or developing countries, notably in South America.
Today the empire has gone, and developing countries turn to places like China for their railway needs.

Interesting to see recently that Spain's great push to build a high-speed railway in Saudi has fallen into corruption allegations involving the former King Juan Carlos...

 

[Goldfish62]

We will never be able to realistically compete in mainland Europe as our trains and railway are so different

Underneath our trains are not different. It's really only the uniquely small loading gauge and platform height dictating the size and shape of the bodyshell that makes them look different. Eg, below the bodyshell the Desiro City is essentially the same as the Desiros supplied to SNCB.

ADL, our largest bus manufacturer, supplies buses through the world, adapting its standard design to local requirements. A train manufacturer can do the same.

 

[Mikey C]

Underneath our trains are not different. It's really only the uniquely small loading gauge and platform height dictating the size and shape of the bodyshell that makes them look different. Eg, below the bodyshell the Desiro City is essentially the same as the Desiros supplied to SNCB.

ADL, our largest bus manufacturer, supplies buses through the world, adapting its standard design to local requirements. A train manufacturer can do the same.

ADL doesn't compete head to head with Mercedes and Volvo in their main areas though. It sticks to its niches, double deckers and lightweight single deckers, where it has a competitive advantage. Its attempt at a European style heavyweight single decker, the E350H was a flop.

 

[Goldfish62]

ADL doesn't compete head to head with Mercedes and Volvo in their main areas though. It sticks to its niches, double deckers and lightweight single deckers, where it has a competitive advantage. Its attempt at a European style heavyweight single decker, the E350H was a flop.

Good point! But it still adapts its products to local needs and regulations.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

With Wright gone, ADL pretty much has the market to itself. Opportunity for Optare to regain a larger chunk of the market I suppose...

 

[hwl]

With Wright gone, ADL pretty much has the market to itself. Opportunity for Optare to regain a larger chunk of the market I suppose...

Wright was bought by Bamford (Junior) so not gone...

 

[Goldfish62]

Wright was bought by Bamford (Junior) so not gone...

And Optare is seemingly incapable of delivering anything on time with its small number of orders so I can't see how it could cope with expansion.

 

[WilloughbyGC]

It gives Alstom options, at least.
The maintenance work in the UK will no doubt be brought under a single management, probably signalling too.
I think Alstom is more active on infrastructure in the UK than Bombardier, with a number of joint ventures working on upgrade projects.
Product lines are harder to rationalise, so it might be the next generation before changes happen.
EMU software must be a key area to look at, seeing the problems Bombardier has had with Aventras.
We are probably a couple of years from a decision on the HS2 rolling stock.

The decision on HS2 rolling stock - preferred bidder at least - is supposed to be by the end of this year, so before the Alstom/Bombardier deal is completed.

Also the high speed divestment for the UK is for 'future' bids which means post-HS2, not the current bid which continues unaffected.

So if Bombardier/Hitachi win the bid for HS2 rolling stock it will still be built at Derby and Newton Aycliffe.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Surely they couldn't make that in the shed there. The site would surely need to be massively expanded, which could be avoided if they have Derby.

I think it's going to be Alstom bid at Widnes & joint bid with hitachi at Derby. You have to remember Derby may well have other trains under build by then.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

I think it's going to be Alstom bid at Widnes & joint bid with hitachi at Derby. You have to remember Derby may well have other trains under build by then.

Alstom is bidding on their own, with an AGV variant.

Bombardier and Hitachi both bid individually but then combined their bids, and were progressing with a derivative of the ETR 1000 Frecciarossa, which Hitachi had involvement with as a result of their Ansaldo-Breda purchase, it wasn't strictly a Hitachi product though I understand it was gaining more Hitachi designed, Japanese origin Shinkansen technology. Bombardier's stake in the joint-venture is currently offered for sale, Hitachi have first refusal but potentially another manufacturer could purchase that stake - perhaps one of Hitachi's Japanese collaborators, such as J-TREC/J-TEC or Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

Siemens were offering the Velaro which everybody knows and loves from Eurostar e320.

The Spanish comedy double act of Talgo and CAF round out the five bidders. Talgo were offering the death trap Avril platform, which scares the **** out of me with those independent wheeled bogieless carriages. CAF were drafted in to ensure dreadful reliability, woeful delivery timescales and atrocious build quality were still on offer after Bombardier decided to involve themselves with Hitachi.

 

[py_megapixel]

Alstom is bidding on their own, with an AGV variant.

Bombardier and Hitachi both bid individually but then combined their bids, and were progressing with a derivative of the ETR 1000 Frecciarossa, which Hitachi had involvement with as a result of their Ansaldo-Breda purchase, it wasn't strictly a Hitachi product though I understand it was gaining more Hitachi designed, Japanese origin Shinkansen technology. Bombardier's stake in the joint-venture is currently offered for sale, Hitachi have first refusal but potentially another manufacturer could purchase that stake - perhaps one of Hitachi's Japanese collaborators, such as J-TREC/J-TEC or Kawasaki Heavy Industries.

Siemens were offering the Velaro which everybody knows and loves from Eurostar e320.

The Spanish comedy double act of Talgo and CAF round out the five bidders. Talgo were offering the death trap Avril platform, which scares the **** out of me with those independent wheeled bogieless carriages. CAF were drafted in to ensure dreadful reliability, woeful delivery timescales and atrocious build quality were still on offer after Bombardier decided to involve themselves with Hitachi.

You seem to have very strong opinions about all of the proposed rolling stock, despite the fact that none has been ordered yet, let alone entered service!

Personally I think what HS2 needs is simple reliable rolling stock built on proven technology. The whole project is so controversial and tenuous that trying to bring in something entirely new (such as Talgo's independent wheels, or Hitachi's AnsaldoBreda derived custom platform) would just be a bit of a disaster PR-wise if there were major teething problems.

I think my preference would be for Velaros, similar to those on Deutsche Bahn and Eurostar, or alternatively Alstom's bid, though Alstom had gained a rather poor reputation in this country!

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Well, it's DfT doing the choosing - now with helpful input from Avanti* (ie Trenitalia) as prospective operator.
UK "construction" (ie final assembly) is probably key after Brexit, but all the bidders have something of a UK option on the table.
Almost nothing of the trains will be sourced in the UK, as they are all derivatives of European high-speed designs with existing supply chains.

We ought to know fairly soon if Hitachi wants to take over 100% of the Zefiro bid.
Alstom has the best operational knowledge of the WCML, but Hitachi has its feet firmly under the DfT table.
Announcing the preferred bidder will be a political decision, so the the politicos might well rush it to win a few brownie points - but there's no real need to order trains for several years with HS2 construction barely started.

* that's assuming Avanti survives the impending reorganisation of franchises

 

[WilloughbyGC]

Well, it's DfT doing the choosing - now with helpful input from Avanti* (ie Trenitalia) as prospective operator.
UK "construction" (ie final assembly) is probably key after Brexit, but all the bidders have something of a UK option on the table.
Almost nothing of the trains will be sourced in the UK, as they are all derivatives of European high-speed designs with existing supply chains.

We ought to know fairly soon if Hitachi wants to take over 100% of the Zefiro bid.
Alstom has the best operational knowledge of the WCML, but Hitachi has its feet firmly under the DfT table.
Announcing the preferred bidder will be a political decision, so the the politicos might well rush it to win a few brownie points - but there's no real need to order trains for several years with HS2 construction barely started.

* that's assuming Avanti survives the impending reorganisation of franchises

if you read the wording of the EU clearance press release, their decision has no impact on the Bombardier/Hitachi joint bid for HS2 which continues as now. The need for Bombardier to divest their share of the V300 Zefiro relates to mainland Europe not the UK.

 

[Mikey C]

It'll be interesting if one bidder wins both the UIC loading gauge HS2 only trains, and the classic compatible stock

The latter will be more of a technical challenge

 

[WilloughbyGC]

It'll be interesting if one bidder wins both the UIC loading gauge HS2 only trains, and the classic compatible stock

The latter will be more of a technical challenge

true though the order for phase 1 are all classic compatible