Altercation on Hucknall train

[yorkie]

I think he uploaded it out of admiration for the guard, not realising the possible consequences.

Absolutely

In what way are you suggesting that the person videoing it committed an offence?

It wasn't my suggestion but it was pointed out he was using abusive language on the railway (see https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf page 7) and, while I accept that does appear to be the case, it's hardly 'arrestable'.

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure what you're trying to say but if an employer has evidence of wrongdoing they can - and probably will - investigate.

And do what?

Good job they did.

Indeed I would.

But this isn't relevant to the topic in hand, so can I ask that any further discussion of the Paris Metro incident takes place in a separate thread, and not this one, please.

His name is on his Youtube channel.

That seems rather unlikely to me.
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Yes the Guard and person videoing did both appear to commit an offence, but to suggest they be arrested for it is absurd and ludicrous.
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I agree.

Your quiet right Yorkie, it is absurd for them to be arrested. I wasn't actually wanting that to happen. I just throw it out there.

I also think it would be absurd for the guard to be sacked. He just needs some training and support so he's claimer in the future. Although saying that I don't know what else had gone on that day or in his life. It may be a one off for other reasons that are none of our business.
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I think he uploaded it out of admiration for the guard, not realising the possible consequences.
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In what way are you suggesting that the person videoing it committed an offence?

He swore in public. That's technically against the law.

I wouldn't want to see them arrested but technically they all could be if someone wanted to do so. The evidence is on video. I don't think it would be in the public interest to do so mind you and I'd hope no one would.

 

[Deepgreen]

I've a feeling that you did this for your own self gratification but hey that's folk for you.[/QUOTE]

Hardly! I did it to stop him screaming obcenities in my face from two inches away while threatening violence and while very clearly on drugs of some sort. I don't find it gratifying to have to control someone's behaviour like that but there was little or no choice as I was at a window seat and he was sitting next to me blocking any exit I might have wanted.

 

[Flamingo]

Funnily enough, our current briefing is about cameras and violence at work:

Cameras - unless harrassment, then we can and are to do nothing, as our actions should be professional at all times, but if the images appear in any media the company will have them removed (no mention of how).

Violence or the threat thereof - walk away, ring BTP (regardless). Don't be a hero. (And a mention of possible diciplinary action if this is not followed in all cases)

 

[CharlieSpotted]

He swore in public. That's technically against the law.

IANAL but I think this is only an offence if a 'reasonable person' is offended by it (and complains as such). Of course(!) a police officer is, by nature of their job, a 'reasonable person', so swearing in the presence of one will get you in trouble.

But swearing in public, so long as nobody is offended and complains about you, is not illegal.

 

[ASharpe]

IANAL but I think this is only an offence if a 'reasonable person' is offended by it (and complains as such). Of course(!) a police officer is, by nature of their job, a 'reasonable person', so swearing in the presence of one will get you in trouble.

But swearing in public, so long as nobody is offended and complains about you, is not illegal.

Actually, there was a case a few years ago where someone swore at a police officer. Although initially convicted it was overturned on appeal because a police officer should be used to being sworn at.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8902770/Swearing-at-police-is-not-a-crime-judge-rules.html

 

[CharlieSpotted]

Interesting! I suppose if the officer was used to swearing, you could say that they wouldn't be offended by it.

 

[jon0844]

What about police officers swearing at members of the public? Is that acceptable, because it happens a LOT.

Now, I am sure there's an argument that if they're assertive then people comply - but as I said before, it also seems at times like they're trying to goad people into reacting, to give them an excuse to knock them onto the floor.

I've seen it in person, experienced being told to f-off, and seen it many times on TV shows (which shows that they obviously know they're okay as they'll do it when a TV crew is filming, not someone trying to do it covertly).

 

[NorthernSpirit]

I've had a guard once who refused to sell me a ticket despite having my railcard ready, so I reported them to the TOC involved for refusing to sell a passenger a ticket. Even bumped into a couple of RPO at the station I was changing at and asked them for a ticket instead as I explained to them that the guard refused to sell me one.

Apparently the guard involved on my case will have had the book thrown at them as it was the fourth time they've done it, plus I did complain to the same TOC about the guards irratic behaviour once as he was not displaying professional behaviour whist on duty.

 

[Flamingo]

I've had a guard once who refused to sell me a ticket despite having my railcard ready, so I reported them to the TOC involved for refusing to sell a passenger a ticket. Even bumped into a couple of RPO at the station I was changing at and asked them for a ticket instead as I explained to them that the guard refused to sell me one.

Apparently the guard involved on my case will have had the book thrown at them as it was the fourth time they've done it, plus I did complain to the same TOC about the guards irratic behaviour once as he was not displaying professional behaviour whist on duty.

The first question is why were you on the train without a ticket?

The second is were they refusing to sell you a railcard discounted ticket, because you had an opportunity to buy before boarding? (By opportunity I mean was there facilities to buy one, not one of the usual excuses one hears for not buying one, like "I was running late", "I don't like using TVM's", "The barriers were open", etc.)

Also, what were you attempting to pay with?

Other questions may follow depending on the replies to these questions...

 

[NorthernSpirit]

The first question is why were you on the train without a ticket?

The second is were they refusing to sell you a railcard discounted ticket, because you had an opportunity to buy before boarding? (By opportunity I mean was there facilities to buy one, not one of the usual excuses one hears for not buying one, like "I was running late", "I don't like using TVM's", "The barriers were open", etc.)

Also, what were you attempting to pay with?

Other questions may follow depending on the replies to these questions...

I boarded the train at the rear at an unstaffed station (this being Brighouse) where there is no ticket purchasing facilities whatsoever, the station I was heading to (Mirfield) is also unstaffed and it too had no ticket purchasing facilities.

The second part was I had my railcard and cash (this being a fiver) ready but the guard refused to serve me.

 

[Flamingo]

I boarded the train at the rear at an unstaffed station (this being Brighouse) where there is no ticket purchasing facilities whatsoever, the station I was heading to (Mirfield) is also unstaffed and it too had no ticket purchasing facilities.

The second part was I had my railcard and cash (this being a fiver) ready but the guard refused to serve me.

Fair enough. Did he have a ticket machine, and/or was he busy doing anything else?

 

[infobleep]

IANAL but I think this is only an offence if a 'reasonable person' is offended by it (and complains as such). Of course(!) a police officer is, by nature of their job, a 'reasonable person', so swearing in the presence of one will get you in trouble.

But swearing in public, so long as nobody is offended and complains about you, is not illegal.

If I'd been there could I say I was offended and would I be classed as a reasonable person? I'm speaking hypothetically here as I wouldn't want to complain in reality.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I think that would be a decision for the investigating officer. But as I said, I'm not a lawyer. This is just my understanding. If there's a more qualified person here, I'd be happy to hear their thoughts.

 

[class47basic]

er,why were you on the train without a ticket, haven't you read the posters????

 

[tsr]

er,why were you on the train without a ticket, haven't you read the posters????

I'm not sure exactly what you are trying to say or to whom, but it has been stated time and time again on these forums and in the NRCoC that if there are no facilities to purchase a ticket (or permit to travel) before boarding a train, a passenger must instead purchase a ticket at the next opportunity. Finding a guard with a working ticket machine and time to sell a ticket before you alight from the train may reasonably be regarded as the first opportunity.

 

[RichmondCommu]

What about police officers swearing at members of the public? Is that acceptable, because it happens a LOT.

Now, I am sure there's an argument that if they're assertive then people comply - but as I said before, it also seems at times like they're trying to goad people into reacting, to give them an excuse to knock them onto the floor.

I've seen it in person, experienced being told to f-off, and seen it many times on TV shows (which shows that they obviously know they're okay as they'll do it when a TV crew is filming, not someone trying to do it covertly).

My wife is a police officer and I'm sorry but you really have no idea.

 

[satisnek]

Doubtful, but I've seen plenty of things that have made me think something is going to kick off and been proven right - so it's not usually hard to predict, and filming incidents has proven quite useful of late. Remember that unarmed guy running from a police officer in the US? Racism and other assaults on public transport, or on the street? The usefulness of dash cams?

Indeed I would.

Fair enough, we beg to differ. Although my phone does 'video' (at 15fps I use the term in the loosest possible sense) the thought of recording an incident or altercation between others would never cross my mind, let alone uploading it to Youtube for the world to see. Back in the 20th century the most widely circulated advice (even if it wasn't always heeded!) was: don't get involved. I guess that things have moved on.

 

[Mugby]

Thats Hucknall for you

Exactly.

And it gets progressively worse the further up the line you go!

 

[jon0844]

My wife is a police officer and I'm sorry but you really have no idea.

No idea of what? You saying I'm lying? The TV shows are faked? That I've not been told to f-off? That your wife represents all police officers nationwide?

Come on, elaborate please. I'm intrigued.

 

[swj99]

I have to say after watching that video, the guard was probably lucky he didn't get hurt. I've seen plenty of situations which started off like that escalate into violence.

Anyone know what happened next ? Did the alleged fare dodger get nicked ? Did he pay £20 for a takeaway for the one who was filming it ?

Or what ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

No idea of what? You saying I'm lying? The TV shows are faked? That I've not been told to f-off? That your wife represents all police officers nationwide?

Come on, elaborate please. I'm intrigued.

In what instance have you been sworn at by the police? Was it a matter that directly involved you or were you trying to involve yourself in something that had nothing to do with you?

 

[jon0844]

In what instance have you been sworn at by the police? Was it a matter that directly involved you or were you trying to involve yourself in something that had nothing to do with you?

I'd witnessed an accident, where a police officer in a traffic car had reversed into a motorcyclist. I was told to **** off and mind my own business, and stopped from approaching the man knocked off. On another occasion, I was taking photos of an incident for a newspaper, and got abuse until I showed my NUJ Press Card. Suddenly, said officer backed off.

And that wasn't the only time.

However, I asked a simple question about whether it's okay for police officers to swear at people - and I was thinking more about officers out doing their normal business, especially pub/club chucking out times.

Perhaps you should ask your wife? Although, personally, I've not seen female officers doing it. Sure, they can (and should be) firm, but actually swearing? No.

Of course I can't speak for all officers either, and wasn't pretending to, but I am amazed you can be so dismissive or just assume I was up to no good.

Mind you, with regards to your question, if someone was getting involved in something that had nothing to do with them, would it be acceptable to tell them to **** off?

 

[RichmondCommu]

I'd witnessed an accident, where a police officer in a traffic car had reversed into a motorcyclist. I was told to **** off and mind my own business, and stopped from approaching the man knocked off. On another occasion, I was taking photos of an incident for a newspaper, and got abuse until I showed my NUJ Press Card. Suddenly, said officer backed off.

And that wasn't the only time.

However, I asked a simple question about whether it's okay for police officers to swear at people - and I was thinking more about officers out doing their normal business, especially pub/club chucking out times.

Perhaps you should ask your wife? Although, personally, I've not seen female officers doing it. Sure, they can (and should be) firm, but actually swearing? No.

Of course I can't speak for all officers either, and wasn't pretending to, but I am amazed you can be so dismissive or just assume I was up to no good.

Mind you, with regards to your question, if someone was getting involved in something that had nothing to do with them, would it be acceptable to tell them to **** off?

Before the police swore at you, what did you say to them? Did you use abusive language? In my personal experience (and I have been pulled over for speeding and indeed arrested for being drunk and disorderly; before I met my wife!) if you are polite and civil to the police they will be no different to you. However if they are faced with a difficult situation and you decide to stick your oar in you are likely to get a short and sharp response. After all could you honestly say that you were trying to defuse the situation?

If a police officer feels that they are in danger there is a likely hood that they will use a swear word. At the same time its unlikely that a police officer would take action against you for swearing at them unless they thought that you were a threat. The police are human beings just like you.

Yes there are bad apples in the police force however 99% of police officers do not want any trouble, they simply want to keep the peace. If you are determined to cause trouble and make a bad situation worse then the police will respond with the powers made available to them.

 

[jon0844]

I shouted at the driver to stop reversing as he was going to hit someone (this was in traffic). When he hit the motorcyclist, I went to the cyclist to check he was okay and to offer myself as a witness.

I had actually said nothing to the police officer at that time, but clearly he knew (and his colleague) that he'd messed up. And having me offer to be a witness upset him somewhat.

I naively didn't complain or follow things up, and never did get to give my details to the person who was hit. Hopefully it was sorted out professionally afterwards.

Over the years, the main problem I've had is photographing things - but the police are now generally an awful lot better and have been told numerous times that it's not illegal to take photos (or video) in a public space. I'd say it's only PCSOs that probably still think otherwise, but it's been a few years since I've had any need to take photos of anything where the police might be involved.

Ironically, when I used to go out with the police for raids on phone shops (or other shops handling stolen phones) I was there to take photos! All I needed to do was hide faces before publishing, and seek permission from the premises where the police were entering. Suffice to say, I usually ended up outside on the street.

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Fair enough. Did he have a ticket machine, and/or was he busy doing anything else?

He had his machine and he was selling / checking everyone elses ticket, he just didn't sell me one so I complained to the TOC concerned, pointing out that by law, a passenger must purchase a ticket if boarded at an unstaffed station at the first oppitunity which is what I do.

I've had problems with the guard before, from him being rude to not only myself but to others too by them, the guard, displaying unprofessional behaviour whilst conducting their duties and by bringing the TOC that he is working for into distripute. Needless to say I complained to the TOC involved and explained to them what had happened from my view.

 

[Flamingo]

He had his machine and he was selling / checking everyone elses ticket, he just didn't sell me one so I complained to the TOC concerned, pointing out that by law, a passenger must purchase a ticket if boarded at an unstaffed station at the first oppitunity which is what I do.

I've had problems with the guard before, from him being rude to not only myself but to others too by them, the guard, displaying unprofessional behaviour whilst conducting their duties and by bringing the TOC that he is working for into distripute. Needless to say I complained to the TOC involved and explained to them what had happened from my view.

That seems very odd, then.

 

[Merseysider]

He had his machine and he was selling / checking everyone elses ticket, he just didn't sell me one so I complained to the TOC concerned, pointing out that by law, a passenger must purchase a ticket if boarded at an unstaffed station at the first oppitunity which is what I do.

I've had problems with the guard before, from him being rude to not only myself but to others too by them, the guard, displaying unprofessional behaviour whilst conducting their duties and by bringing the TOC that he is working for into distripute. Needless to say I complained to the TOC involved and explained to them what had happened from my view.

Were you 'jumping the queue'? On the western side of Northern's network, the general attitude is that you wait for the guard to come to you if you've boarded at an unstaffed station.

 

[RichmondCommu]

However, I asked a simple question about whether it's okay for police officers to swear at people - and I was thinking more about officers out doing their normal business, especially pub/club chucking out times.

Perhaps you should ask your wife? Although, personally, I've not seen female officers doing it. Sure, they can (and should be) firm, but actually swearing? No.

Of course I can't speak for all officers either, and wasn't pretending to, but I am amazed you can be so dismissive or just assume I was up to no good.

Mind you, with regards to your question, if someone was getting involved in something that had nothing to do with them, would it be acceptable to tell them to **** off?

If you walk out of a club / pub / bar at closing time and you behave yourself then the police will not have an issue with you, let alone swear at you. However if you are hell bent on being verbally aggressive towards the police or worse intending to attack them can you honestly blame the police for using aggressive language. Think about how you would feel as a police officer if you told someone to go home for their own well being and safety after night of heavy drinking and their reply was "don't tell me what to do you stupid Paki bitch".
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I shouted at the driver to stop reversing as he was going to hit someone (this was in traffic). When he hit the motorcyclist, I went to the cyclist to check he was okay and to offer myself as a witness.

I had actually said nothing to the police officer at that time, but clearly he knew (and his colleague) that he'd messed up. And having me offer to be a witness upset him somewhat.

I naively didn't complain or follow things up, and never did get to give my details to the person who was hit. Hopefully it was sorted out professionally afterwards.

In all fairness you should have made a complaint and given that you appear to have some knowledge of the police and their procedures I'm surprised that you didn't.

 

[ComUtoR]

I... However if you are hell bent on being verbally aggressive towards the police or worse intending to attack them can you honestly blame the police for using aggressive language...

By your own logic is it then safe to assume that you believe that the guard in the video is justified in his poor choice of words ?