Altered Settle-Carlisle and Bentham line services from 17 Feb

[30907]

A flag-up, as I don't think it has been mentioned on another thread:
3 offpeak services each way have been witdrawn between Leeds and Skipton. Trans affected are
1220/1418/1518 ex Leeds
0941 Lancaster/1033 Morecambe/1049 Carlisle.
Local information is that this is to reduce congestion at Leeds as P1 has been shortened.
(For those who don't know, some diagrams on these routes have lengthy layovers in platforms 1-5, so the reason isn't as daft as it sounds.)
Unfortunately, as times haven't changed west of Skipton, passengers from/to Leeds have to allow nearly half an hour more.

 

[Glenn1969]

All 3 of them connect with a Bradford train leaving 9 minutes later from Skipton but the Leeds train departs 23 mins later

 

[AndrewE]

A flag-up, as I don't think it has been mentioned on another thread:
3 offpeak services each way have been witdrawn between Leeds and Skipton. Trans affected are
1220/1418/1518 ex Leeds
0941 Lancaster/1033 Morecambe/1049 Carlisle.
Local information is that this is to reduce congestion at Leeds as P1 has been shortened.
(For those who don't know, some diagrams on these routes have lengthy layovers in platforms 1-5, so the reason isn't as daft as it sounds.)
Unfortunately, as times haven't changed west of Skipton, passengers from/to Leeds have to [leave early and] allow nearly half an hour more.

should be the headline comment! Missing a train which only runs every 2 hours - with WCML connections north and south will be a catastrophe for quite a few customers. I'm grateful to have been reminded of this.
I have 2 different Northern #7 pocket timetables, one from 15.12.19 to 16.5.20 (with no warning of engineering whatsoever) and another running from 15.12.19 to 16.2.20 - also with no hint that it expires well before you might expect! I wonder how many potential customers (like me) will have picked one up and might use it without realising that it has already expired?

 

[Wharfe106]

A flag-up, as I don't think it has been mentioned on another thread:
3 offpeak services each way have been witdrawn between Leeds and Skipton. Trans affected are.

Correct, and there are new timetables from 17 Feb for Leeds-Harrogate and also Leeds to Ilkley/Skipton/Bradford FS.

 

[yorksrob]

I think that the key thing should be the holding of connections at Settle (within reason) to ensure that through journies are as seemless as possible.

I have used the 21:30 evening service from Lancaster which has a 5 minute connection to Leeds at Skipton, and whilst staff have tended to be helpful in these circumstances, it has been touch and go a couple of times.

 

[AndrewE]

The revised timetable is here https://d2cf7kiw5xizhy.cloudfront.n...isle-leeds-to-morecambe-heysham-port-2892.pdf
I am a bit surprised that on pages 7 and 9 they can't even be bothered to show their own connecting services from and to Leeds!
Also I note that the 1258 departure from Skipton to Lancaster has been retimed to leave 5 minutes early, even though it is the same time from the next stop onwards. I presume it is to break the connection out of the 1251 arrival from Bradford... seems as though they are determined to inconvenience the passengers as much as possible!
Seamless journeys: what are they?

 

[Bletchleyite]

This is the same TOC that still hasn't been bothered to sort out the way the timetable shows the through Ormskirk-Blackpool South service as two separate services, meaning anyone making that journey is given a 61 minute connection via the journey planners. So why would they get anything else like that right?

 

[70014IronDuke]

A flag-up, as I don't think it has been mentioned on another thread:
3 offpeak services each way have been witdrawn between Leeds and Skipton. Trans affected are
1220/1418/1518 ex Leeds
0941 Lancaster/1033 Morecambe/1049 Carlisle.
Local information is that this is to reduce congestion at Leeds as P1 has been shortened.
(For those who don't know, some diagrams on these routes have lengthy layovers in platforms 1-5, so the reason isn't as daft as it sounds.)
Unfortunately, as times haven't changed west of Skipton, passengers from/to Leeds have to allow nearly half an hour more.

Gosh, is this a permanent change?

I first read it and thought it was due to work shortening platform 1. Now, reading more carefully, it HAS been shortened.

That's really clever that, isn't it? When rail use is increasing, you make changes that cut back the service? Why on earth was this done?

 

[70014IronDuke]

I think that the key thing should be the holding of connections at Settle (within reason) to ensure that through journies are as seemless as possible.
...

Do you mean Skipton? I can't understand what needs to be held at Settle.

 

[yorksrob]

Do you mean Skipton? I can't understand what needs to be held at Settle.

Yes, you're right. It's been a long day.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Gosh, is this a permanent change?

I first read it and thought it was due to work shortening platform 1. Now, reading more carefully, it HAS been shortened.

That's really clever that, isn't it? When rail use is increasing, you make changes that cut back the service? Why on earth was this done?

Presumably its temporary in connection with Platform 0 works?

 

[Staffordian]

Presumably its temporary in connection with Platform 0 works?

According to RTT, the 1041 ex Carlisle and 1518 ex Leeds run through to/from Leeds again from 18th May.

 

[AndrewE]

According to RTT, the 1041 ex Carlisle and 1518 ex Leeds run through to/from Leeds again from 18th May.

Oh good, only 3 months away!

 

[IanXC]

This is the same TOC that still hasn't been bothered to sort out the way the timetable shows the through Ormskirk-Blackpool South service as two separate services, meaning anyone making that journey is given a 61 minute connection via the journey planners. So why would they get anything else like that right?

They are two separate services. The fact that they happen to, currently, be operated by the same unit is neither here nor there. They simply are not a through service (and of course if they were would be lop sided as the diagram takes the unit to Colne).

 

[Bletchleyite]

They are two separate services. The fact that they happen to, currently, be operated by the same unit is neither here nor there. They simply are not a through service (and of course if they were would be lop sided as the diagram takes the unit to Colne).

But that attitude is precisely the problem. What they technically are is of no relevance to the passenger. The problem is that the journey planner tells the passenger to wait 61 minutes when there is an absolute certainty that they will make the 1 minute "connection" that is actually there by remaining on the unit because it is actually operated as a through service (except I think on Saturdays). How they arrange that is not important, but the present situation is unacceptably poor customer service. This is no different than the failure to properly produce timetables showing connections in the Leeds case.

FWIW the above is further confused by quite a few staff that do actually put Blackpool South on the blind.

 

[Bovverboy]

This is the same TOC that still hasn't been bothered to sort out the way the timetable shows the through Ormskirk-Blackpool South service as two separate services, meaning anyone making that journey is given a 61 minute connection via the journey planners. So why would they get anything else like that right?

They are two separate services. The fact that they happen to, currently, be operated by the same unit is neither here nor there. They simply are not a through service (and of course if they were would be lop sided as the diagram takes the unit to Colne).

We've had lop-sided services before (i.e. where there is a through service from A to B, but not vice versa), they're no big deal. That being the case, I can't really see why Northern don't advertise Ormskirk - Blackpool South and Blackpool South - Colne as through services. (After doing Colne - Preston, the unit usually drops back an hour before doing Preston - Ormskirk).
As to when services can, and are, linked, the usual reasons for so doing are:
1) there are a significant number of through passengers; or
2) for operational convenience.
In respect of the latter, it's usually easier to run a service A to C via B than to run two separate services, A to B and B to C.

 

[AndrewE]

We've had lop-sided services before (i.e. where there is a through service from A to B, but not vice versa), they're no big deal. That being the case, I can't really see why Northern don't advertise Ormskirk - Blackpool South and Blackpool South - Colne as through services. (After doing Colne - Preston, the unit usually drops back an hour before doing Preston - Ormskirk).
As to when services can, and are, linked, the usual reasons for so doing are:
1) there are a significant number of through passengers; or
2) for operational convenience.
In respect of the latter, it's usually easier to run a service A to C via B than to run two separate services, A to B and B to C.

In case anyone should be opposed to advertising through services in case the operator should decide that they want to split them on the day, that hasn't inhibited Arriva Wales (or whatever they were called.) I have been tipped out of a packed Holyhead to S Wales via Crewe train at Chester, only to be told to get straight on to a unit that was going through to S Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In case anyone should be opposed to advertising through services in case the operator should decide that they want to split them on the day, that hasn't inhibited Arriva Wales (or whatever they were called.) I have been tipped out of a packed Holyhead to S Wales via Crewe train at Chester, only to be told to get straight on to a unit that was going through to S Wales.

This goes on all over TfW and its predecessor and is because of the chronic shortage of units. The most common is a unit swap at Shrewsbury when a non-ETCS fitted unit has ended up on a Cambrian service.

 

[WesternLancer]

Interesting to wonder whether the DOR 'takeover' will bring in the level of management changes that result at all levels in the sort of culture changes needed - eg down to levels like better produced timetable booklet information etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting to wonder whether the DOR 'takeover' will bring in the level of management changes that result at all levels in the sort of culture changes needed - eg down to levels like better produced timetable booklet information etc.

Allow me to guess....no?

 

[70014IronDuke]

Presumably its temporary in connection with Platform 0 works?

Ah! Thanks.

 

[70014IronDuke]

But that attitude is precisely the problem. What they technically are is of no relevance to the passenger. The problem is that the journey planner tells the passenger to wait 61 minutes when there is an absolute certainty that they will make the 1 minute "connection" that is actually there by remaining on the unit because it is actually operated as a through service (except I think on Saturdays). How they arrange that is not important, but the present situation is unacceptably poor customer service. This is no different than the failure to properly produce timetables showing connections in the Leeds case.

FWIW the above is further confused by quite a few staff that do actually put Blackpool South on the blind.

To bring this somewhat closer to topic, I believe a not dissimilar event happens on the S&C on Sundays.
A year or so ago, Northern advertised two additional SuOs as through trains Nottingham - Carlisle and Carlisle - Sheffield. (This is in addition to the two through trains still advertised .) They withdrew these services as advertised either last December, or I think it was, last May.

But in fact, the last time I looked, the units were still diagrammed to continue through Leeds. However, because of the lack of advertised through working, passengers who tried to do Nottingham - Carlisle would have been advised to change at Sheffield onto XC, only to change back on the same unit as they had originally been on at Leeds. (I hope I've remembered this correctly - it's been awhile since I checked it out.)

 

[Wharfe106]

To bring this somewhat closer to topic, I believe a not dissimilar event happens on the S&C on Sundays.
A year or so ago, Northern advertised two additional SuOs as through trains Nottingham - Carlisle and Carlisle - Sheffield. (This is in addition to the two through trains still advertised

Indeed so, until the December 2019 timetable change units work through onto the S+C from a number of places including Manchester and Blackpool, the Diagrams were a real mess and very inefficient. However, if this had continued it would have meant class 195 is operating over the S+C, so now S+C services inter work with the Bentham line services.

 

[yorksrob]

Interesting to wonder whether the DOR 'takeover' will bring in the level of management changes that result at all levels in the sort of culture changes needed - eg down to levels like better produced timetable booklet information etc.

West Yorkshire had one of the best pocket timetables in the country and got rid, so unless WYCA has a change of heart, I can't see DoR changing it.

 

[yorksrob]

Indeed so, until the December 2019 timetable change units work through onto the S+C from a number of places including Manchester and Blackpool, the Diagrams were a real mess and very inefficient. However, if this had continued it would have meant class 195 is operating over the S+C, so now S+C services inter work with the Bentham line services.

Presumably this helps to explain the happy innovation of 158's via Bentham.

 

[Condor7]

What is annoying is the 10.49 from Carlisle to Leeds is already a backside numbing two hours fifty minutes long. Under this new temporary timetable changing at Skipton, it arrives two minutes after the Skipton to Leeds train leaves leaving passengers a further nineteen minutes to wait for the next one.
I appreciate this is a beautiful run but that wears a bit thin if using regularly. Would it have been possible to have made some slight adjustments somewhere to rectify this?

 

[Bovverboy]

What is annoying is the 10.49 from Carlisle to Leeds is already a backside numbing two hours fifty minutes long. Under this new temporary timetable changing at Skipton, it arrives two minutes after the Skipton to Leeds train leaves leaving passengers a further nineteen minutes to wait for the next one.

Assuming you were in the habit of using this particular service regularly, could you tell me how many passengers (approximately) used to be on board when it arrived at Skipton, and how many of those continued beyond Skipton? It's tempting to ask how many of the passengers on board by Skipton were still on board when it arrived at Leeds, but I appreciate that that's not something it's easy to say, once people start boarding/alighting at random.

 

[Bovverboy]

Up to last week the 1049 ex-Carlisle was scheduled to arrive at Skipton at 1255 (WTT 1254.5) and depart at 1256 (WTT 1256.5). Extra recovery time has been added after Gargrave to give the new Skipton arrival of 1258.
The 1256 Skipton to Leeds, calling at Keighley, Bingley, and Shipley, appears to be a direct replacement (but EMU-operated) for the Skipton to Leeds section of the 1049 ex-Carlisle. However apart from the minus two minute connection time there's the added problem that the 1256 departs P2 and the ex-Carlisle arrives P3, which I gather is not a cross-platform change. On Monday of this week the 1256 doesn't seem to have operated; on Tuesday and Wednesday I would say the connection was not made, but it seems to have been made yesterday, Thursday.
It certainly seems to be a good way to ruin a train service. I don't know what happens to the EMU off the 1256 when it gets to Leeds, I haven't been able to follow it through.

 

[WesternLancer]

Assuming you were in the habit of using this particular service regularly, could you tell me how many passengers (approximately) used to be on board when it arrived at Skipton, and how many of those continued beyond Skipton? It's tempting to ask how many of the passengers on board by Skipton were still on board when it arrived at Leeds, but I appreciate that that's not something it's easy to say, once people start boarding/alighting at random.

I assume FoSCL Friends Group would be on to this to monitor numbers - they regularly do passenger counts anyway IIRC fro other parts of their campaigning and related activity.

I look forward to seeing what they have to say when i get my next Friends newsletter!

 

[WesternLancer]

I assume FoSCL Friends Group would be on to this to monitor numbers - they regularly do passenger counts anyway IIRC fro other parts of their campaigning and related activity.

I look forward to seeing what they have to say when i get my next Friends newsletter!

I see there Twitter feed says

Minor timetable change from tomorrow, Monday 17th Feb. 1049 from Carlisle terminates at Skipton, returns at 1559 instead of 1518 departure from Leeds. Why? Work on the new Platform Zero at Leeds, which will reduce congestion. Plenty of electric trains Leeds-Skipton.

Which implies they don't think the non connection is a problem. Strikes me as a bit poor...