• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Altered Settle-Carlisle and Bentham line services from 17 Feb

Status
Not open for further replies.

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Northern have just sent a load of Pacers back to Angel trains, so there can't be a DMU shortage. In any case the recent changes haven't saved a DMU diagram, you'd probably need to terminate all the Carlisles/Morecambes at Skipton to save a DMU.

That doesn't follow. Pacers have been retired for political reasons. Logic would have been to retain them.

Most of the Carlisle / Lancaster services have/had long layovers in the bays at Leeds, of which there is currently a shortage of spare capacity due to the works on P0 and re-configuring P1-3. Hence the reason why some services are terminated short at Skipton whilst the works go on.

As a longer term plan, I'm afraid it isn't going to happen. Permanently cutting them back to Skipton will do nothing for their popularity or feasibility, especially the S&C in summer months. No what both need are longer formations so that north & west of Skipton their is plenty of room to spread out and enjoy the spectacular scenery, and Leeds-bound more room to soak up the commuter traffic at the peak times.

Passengers for Bradford have always had to change somewhere. On the old times there was a potential saving of five minutes by changing at Shipley instead of Skipton, but only with a platform change. I suspect some passengers would have changed at Skipton all along. That's heading towards Bradford, I haven't checked the other way.

Some Leeds-bound passengers avoid the worst of the peak loading by changing at Shipley from a Skipton > Bradford service onto the Bradford > Leeds service. Eastbound this involves walking the short distance from P5 to P3, and has a connection time of only about 8-9 minutes. Its a slightly longer walk & connection westbound, but some do still do it to at least have a chance of a seat, although the Forster Square services are themselves becoming more popular.

It might have been an idea to run the services currently turning at Skipton down to Forster Square, but platform capacity is at a premium there too. It could be possible, P3 was at one time used to stable a 333 for much of the day, but it only takes a couple of late runners to start to fowl up Forster Square, and turning at Shipley would be even more problematic. And of course the very slow trundle that is needed through P5 at Shipley would add to those woes.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,818
Location
Yorks
Whilst changing at Skipton is fine as a temporary solution (so long as connections are maintained reliably) we do need to go back to a full timetable of through services as soon as possible. There's a noticable rennaissance of the Little North Western with the improved timetable, and we don't want to jeopardise that with negative long term changes.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
But then we come back to the DMU shortage.

Well as DMUs are released from elsewhere on the network, which eventually they will, the Northern OLR can try to pick them up for strengthening. But simply short-stopping at Skipton really doesn't release much, if any additional capacity. The only reason some are stopped at Skipton is because of lack of platform capacity at Leeds, as some of the units can spend up to a couple of hours before being turned back up.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
... Passengers for Bradford have always had to change somewhere. ...

That's possibly your experience - you might say 'in the modern era' - but it's not actually true.
Back in the 60s, ITYWF at least one the of S&C stopping services (there were only two IIRC) was to/from Forster Sq.

But in any case, as oft stated on these forums, many 'ordinaries' do not like changing. If someone is travelling, say, Bradford to Barrow-in-Furness, a one change at Carnforth might be acceptable, but add in a Skipton change as well, and it can feel just too much of a hassle. So, if you could run into FS, it could well encourage a few more to take the train.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
... As a longer term plan, I'm afraid it isn't going to happen. Permanently cutting them back to Skipton will do nothing for their popularity or feasibility, especially the S&C in summer months. No what both need are longer formations so that north & west of Skipton their is plenty of room to spread out and enjoy the spectacular scenery, and Leeds-bound more room to soak up the commuter traffic at the peak times. ...

Well, this, surely, is THE pinch point for current services in terms of attracting more custom. There are only two such trains - the 05.51 from Carlisle and the equivalent from Lancaster. I presume a significant proportion of the station usage at Settle must take the 07.29 towards Leeds every day. Since Settle sees 140,000 entrance/exits annually, or 386 a day - easily the largest usage on the entire line - I'd guess that first up train must see about 100 joining at Settle? (Anybody caught it of late?)

Smaller numbers of pax, of course, but ditto Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave.

Both lines then have enormous gaps of at best, 2.5 hours until the next up service. There is choice of return trains in the evenings (a rather decent choice since the improved TT a year or two back), but without at least one more working plugging that gap, the attraction of rail must be limited from those settlements. Even a pacer sent to reverse at Ribblehead around 08.00 would be an improvement.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Well, this, surely, is THE pinch point for current services in terms of attracting more custom. There are only two such trains - the 05.51 from Carlisle and the equivalent from Lancaster. I presume a significant proportion of the station usage at Settle must take the 07.29 towards Leeds every day. Since Settle sees 140,000 entrance/exits annually, or 386 a day - easily the largest usage on the entire line - I'd guess that first up train must see about 100 joining at Settle? (Anybody caught it of late?)

Smaller numbers of pax, of course, but ditto Long Preston, Hellifield and Gargrave.

Both lines then have enormous gaps of at best, 2.5 hours until the next up service. There is choice of return trains in the evenings (a rather decent choice since the improved TT a year or two back), but without at least one more working plugging that gap, the attraction of rail must be limited from those settlements. Even a pacer sent to reverse at Ribblehead around 08.00 would be an improvement.

Yes, an earlier morning service from Settle to Leeds would seem to be sensible, perhaps running at least an hour earlier to get into Leeds around 07:30. Of course the challenge would be to get a unit up there for around 06:30. I don't know what sort of traffic the 21:45 from Ribblehead sees heading back to Leeds, perhaps this could run down to Skipton to terminate & stable there, making it a tad easier to run back for an early morning start at Settle?

As for the Lancaster service, the only way this could be made earlier would be to run the outward service (05:22) earlier, or perhaps simply make it ECS? I've no idea what the passenger numbers are for this service though, so just thinking out loud.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
Yes, an earlier morning service from Settle to Leeds would seem to be sensible, perhaps running at least an hour earlier to get into Leeds around 07:30. Of course the challenge would be to get a unit up there for around 06:30. I don't know what sort of traffic the 21:45 from Ribblehead sees heading back to Leeds, perhaps this could run down to Skipton to terminate & stable there, making it a tad easier to run back for an early morning start at Settle? ...
Ah - an 06.30 ex Settle would mean dep Ribblehead at 06.15. That would mean something like 05.20 ECS ex Skipton to Ribblehead. Would be a serious service enhancement, for sure.
But what I was suggesting was something a bit later ie 08.00 ex Ribblehead, to help plug that gap until 10.00 ish and get you into Skipton/Keighley at 08.40 - 08.50.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Ah - an 06.30 ex Settle would mean dep Ribblehead at 06.15. That would mean something like 05.20 ECS ex Skipton to Ribblehead. Would be a serious service enhancement, for sure.
But what I was suggesting was something a bit later ie 08.00 ex Ribblehead, to help plug that gap until 10.00 ish and get you into Skipton/Keighley at 08.40 - 08.50.

To be honest I'd like to see a more regular timetable up the S&C as a whole, something bi-hourly throughout the day with perhaps that early morning starter down from Settle. It would mean more DMUs being needed of course, but the line has been growing nicely and there's really no reason to give it a bit more of a boost without going too mad. It would be even better with shorter connection times at Carlisle towards Glasgow, to give a more robust alternative to the XC services from Leeds, and maybe even one day some selected services being extended from Carlisle themselves. That's the dream at least.... ;)
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,063
Lateral thinking: The train that isn't going to Leeds could run to Ilkley, allowing a through service to all Airedale stations and a change at Shipley for Leeds and Bradford passengers. Plus some new direct journey opportunities.

(This is where someone tells me there is no line capacity to get to Ilkley and/or a lack of platform space!)
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Lateral thinking: The train that isn't going to Leeds could run to Ilkley, allowing a through service to all Airedale stations and a change at Shipley for Leeds and Bradford passengers. Plus some new direct journey opportunities.

(This is where someone tells me there is no line capacity to get to Ilkley and/or a lack of platform space!)

<Steps up to the mic>

Technically this might be possible, but let's not a lot of wriggle room along the single track section through Baildon, and the blocks up towards Ilkley from Guiseley (Menston & Burley-In-Wharfedale are in the same one). So any delay would have almost instant knock-on effects to the regular paths, not to mention the peak additional services to/from Leeds. And frankly there really isn't that much demand for Aire <> Wharfe trains to be honest, especially from Skipton & Keighley has you have the X84 & 62 services respectively working between the two.
 

xotGD

Established Member
Joined
4 Feb 2017
Messages
6,063
<Steps up to the mic>

Technically this might be possible, but let's not a lot of wriggle room along the single track section through Baildon, and the blocks up towards Ilkley from Guiseley (Menston & Burley-In-Wharfedale are in the same one). So any delay would have almost instant knock-on effects to the regular paths, not to mention the peak additional services to/from Leeds. And frankly there really isn't that much demand for Aire <> Wharfe trains to be honest, especially from Skipton & Keighley has you have the X84 & 62 services respectively working between the two.
Yes. it is a bit of a circuitous route, but Bingley - Ilkley is more attractive (for a walk back across the moors). I was thinking more of longer distance journeys, like Ilkley to Carlisle and Lancaster, but I accept that numbers would be low. Still, if getting a unit out of the way gets a few more passengers out of their cars, then it would be good.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Yes. it is a bit of a circuitous route, but Bingley - Ilkley is more attractive (for a walk back across the moors). I was thinking more of longer distance journeys, like Ilkley to Carlisle and Lancaster, but I accept that numbers would be low. Still, if getting a unit out of the way gets a few more passengers out of their cars, then it would be good.

The walk is good I'll grant you, whether there is sufficient demand from Bingley or Ilkley to walk to the other I'm not so sure. Its not that demanding to use existing services for a start or return leg as it is. For example setting off from Bingley over the tops puts you back on a Bradford train arriving xx.14 or xx.44 at Shipley, with a Bingley service at xx.19 or xx.49, or at the very worst xx.09 & xx.39. I just don't think there's any point risking sending a unit trundling up the Wharfe when at Shipley you can run it quickly down to Leeds (once the platform capacity is back).
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Passengers for Bradford have always had to change somewhere.

That's possibly your experience - you might say 'in the modern era' - but it's not actually true.
Back in the 60s, ITYWF at least one the of S&C stopping services (there were only two IIRC) was to/from Forster Sq.

Yes, I did use the word 'always', but I was of course thinking of relatively recent times. I can remember there being, in steam days, a 1535 stopper, Bradford FS - Carlisle, this in the 1950s could produce a Carlisle Kingmoor based 'Jubilee', in the 1960s it was more likely to be a 'Britannia'.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,908
Yes, an earlier morning service from Settle to Leeds would seem to be sensible, perhaps running at least an hour earlier to get into Leeds around 07:30. Of course the challenge would be to get a unit up there for around 06:30. I don't know what sort of traffic the 21:45 from Ribblehead sees heading back to Leeds, perhaps this could run down to Skipton to terminate & stable there, making it a tad easier to run back for an early morning start at Settle?

As for the Lancaster service, the only way this could be made earlier would be to run the outward service (05:22) earlier, or perhaps simply make it ECS? I've no idea what the passenger numbers are for this service though, so just thinking out loud.

Whilst there might be a need for an earlier service from Ribblehead (not convinced to be honest) it would have to come from Skipton / Leeds ECS rather too early - are there not limits on the signal box hours?

As far as the 21:45 ex Ribblehead is concerned that probably should start at Carlisle. Whether it should run a little later from Ribblehead might be of more use but again subject to signal box hours.

Ah - an 06.30 ex Settle would mean dep Ribblehead at 06.15. That would mean something like 05.20 ECS ex Skipton to Ribblehead. Would be a serious service enhancement, for sure.
But what I was suggesting was something a bit later ie 08.00 ex Ribblehead, to help plug that gap until 10.00 ish and get you into Skipton/Keighley at 08.40 - 08.50.

Certainly there is a gap to be plugged whether it would generate much revenue seems unlikely.

I would say there would be value in an earlier departure from Lancaster / Preston towards Leeds as 08:40 arrival Leeds is a bit tight for a 9am start I would say.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,866
Location
Airedale
Or suggest that passengers for Leeds should change at Bingley (or Keighley) which are already same platform changes.
The problem is less the platform change at Skipton (a nuisance but not a disaster) and more the enforced extra 25 minutes journey time from/to Leeds.
Whilst there might be a need for an earlier service from Ribblehead (not convinced to be honest) it would have to come from Skipton / Leeds ECS rather too early - are there not limits on the signal box hours?

As far as the 21:45 ex Ribblehead is concerned that probably should start at Carlisle. Whether it should run a little later from Ribblehead might be of more use but again subject to signal box hours.

I would say there would be value in an earlier departure from Lancaster / Preston towards Leeds as 08:40 arrival Leeds is a bit tight for a 9am start I would say.
The line is open 24hr, and the 2145 Ribblehead is duplicated by the last up Carlisle anyway.
Open to correction, but I doubt there's many Leeds passengers from Lancaster (or even Bentham) on the first Leeds train - and Preston has its own service.
 

Bantamzen

Established Member
Joined
4 Dec 2013
Messages
9,668
Location
Baildon, West Yorkshire
Whilst there might be a need for an earlier service from Ribblehead (not convinced to be honest) it would have to come from Skipton / Leeds ECS rather too early - are there not limits on the signal box hours?

As far as the 21:45 ex Ribblehead is concerned that probably should start at Carlisle. Whether it should run a little later from Ribblehead might be of more use but again subject to signal box hours.

There are freight paths booked through the night along the S&C, so early morning ECS moves shouldn't be a problem.

Certainly there is a gap to be plugged whether it would generate much revenue seems unlikely.

I would say there would be value in an earlier departure from Lancaster / Preston towards Leeds as 08:40 arrival Leeds is a bit tight for a 9am start I would say.

The first service from Lancaster actually starts its day as the 05:22 Skipton-Lancaster, so making this earlier would probably render it practically useless as a passenger service (I've no idea what numbers use it currently, I can't imagine many). That's not to say that the first Lancaster-Leeds shouldn't be earlier, but it would probably make more sense for the 05:22 to leave Skipton as an ECS move earlier in the morning.

However even running earlier does not mean that an early Ribblehead / Settle service isn't feasible. Currently both the first services from Carlisle and Lancaster run within 10 minutes of each other down the Aire valley.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,866
Location
Airedale
1However even running earlier does not mean that an early Ribblehead / Settle service isn't feasible. Currently both the first services from Carlisle and Lancaster run within 10 minutes of each other down the Aire valley.
Both are earlier than they were - the Lancaster by 25 minutes. I'd be surprised if you could find an earlier path into Leeds even when P0 is available. And if there was, you'd want a 4-car emu in it.
 

Class 170101

Established Member
Joined
1 Mar 2014
Messages
7,908
Why must it be a service from Skipton why can't the DMU start its day at Preston / Lancaster?
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Why must it be a service from Skipton why can't the DMU start its day at Preston / Lancaster?

It can, and DMUs do regularly stable overnight at Lancaster (Preston I'm not sure of), but the catch is that there isn't a Northern traincrew depot at either of those places, so you still have to import the crew from somewhere else.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,866
Location
Airedale
It can, and DMUs do regularly stable overnight at Lancaster (Preston I'm not sure of), but the catch is that there isn't a Northern traincrew depot at either of those places, so you still have to import the crew from somewhere else.
Looking at RTT for tonight, Preston Croft Street is used, Lancaster isn't. But your point about traincrew applies.
 

AndrewE

Established Member
Joined
9 Nov 2015
Messages
5,063
It can, and DMUs do regularly stable overnight at Lancaster (Preston I'm not sure of), but the catch is that there isn't a Northern traincrew depot at either of those places, so you still have to import the crew from somewhere else.
Looking at RTT for tonight, Preston Croft Street is used, Lancaster isn't. But your point about traincrew applies.
Please give us back our "one railway..."
Even if it meant maintaining a small link of traincrew for a line at a fairly "remote" location it would be better (for the customers) than saying "Sorry, can't be done, we're not running ECS at 5am just to come back at 7!"
I'm sure the ordinary public would take a dim view of the answer to no early train: "We only have a depot at the other end of the line." I think it is pathetic in the context of public transport provision.
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
Looking at RTT for tonight, Preston Croft Street is used, Lancaster isn't. But your point about traincrew applies.

The unit stabling at Croft Street tonight should be an EMU. I was pretty sure that an EMU or two still stabled at Preston, but wasn't sure about DMUs, and I didn't check. Anyway it turns out that three DMUs usually stable at Preston Carriage Sidings.
I believe at least one DMU stables at Lancaster Saturday night/Sunday morning, why that particular night I don't know.
 

Zooty

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2009
Messages
90
The unit stabling at Croft Street tonight should be an EMU. I was pretty sure that an EMU or two still stabled at Preston, but wasn't sure about DMUs, and I didn't check. Anyway it turns out that three DMUs usually stable at Preston Carriage Sidings.
I believe at least one DMU stables at Lancaster Saturday night/Sunday morning, why that particular night I don't know.
The unit from the Morecambe shuttle overnights at Lancaster on Saturday before working the branch again the next day. This is only since the diagram shake-up in May 2018. I can't remember any other units overnighting at Lancaster, and certainly no east-side units have done so since privatisation.

There was talk when the current franchise was awarded of providing additional services with Barrow crew and perhaps west-side unit diagrams. This would allow for earlier eastbound and later westbound services.
 

70014IronDuke

Established Member
Joined
13 Jun 2015
Messages
3,686
...

Certainly there is a gap to be plugged whether it would generate much revenue seems unlikely.
.. .
Well, it depends on what one means by "much revenue".
Settle, at 140,000 pax per annum is by far the biggest traffic generator between Carlisle and Skipton. Ignoring Ribblehead (only goes there for reversing the train), you then have Horton (19,000 pax), Long Preston (11,600), Hellifield (24,500) and Gargrave (30,500). These latter two make them, by S&C standards, quite important stations - especially Gargrave. Indeed, it is now the third most important S&C station in terms of traffic, with more pax than Kirkby Stephen (27,700 at the last count).

I'd assume something between 20-25% of those passengers (or between 40-50% of all passengers in the up direction) will be catching the one commuting train in the morning. (OK, there are two trains from Long Preston onwards, but the second - from Lancaster - comes just 10 minutes after the first, as we all know.)

If you only have one train, it's surely timed well - but not everyone wants to get up c 06.30 to catch the c 07.30 train. But then there is nothing until c 10.00 into Leeds - in fact, Long Preston and Gargrave have to wait until c 10.25/40 (from Lancaster) because the 08.24 ex-Carlisle doesn't stop.

I'm not saying another train would be anything like 'rammed', but this gap has to be a major disincentive for taking the train into Airedale/Leeds/Bradford from what are, relatively, important settlements on the S&C. People who don't want a train as early as the first, but can't afford, or don't want to wait until the second next one 2.5 hours or more later.
 

30907

Veteran Member
Joined
30 Sep 2012
Messages
17,866
Location
Airedale
Please give us back our "one railway..."
Even if it meant maintaining a small link of traincrew for a line at a fairly "remote" location it would be better (for the customers) than saying "Sorry, can't be done, we're not running ECS at 5am just to come back at 7!"
I'm sure the ordinary public would take a dim view of the answer to no early train: "We only have a depot at the other end of the line." I think it is pathetic in the context of public transport provision.
But they do run a virtually empty train at 5 to come back at 7.
The E-W split dates back to Regional Railways days and ISTR coincided with closing Carnforth as a stabling point as well as the withdrawal of the Leeds-Heysham connecting with the night IoM boat.
It might be better for Preston or Barrow crews to work some Lancaster-Skipton trains, I don't know, but you'll always have cases where the passenger demand doesnt easily match a traincrew or stock diagram. Berthing overnight at Blea Moor, anyone? :)
 

Bovverboy

Established Member
Joined
1 Dec 2013
Messages
1,930
I believe at least one DMU stables at Lancaster Saturday night/Sunday morning, why that particular night I don't know.

The unit from the Morecambe shuttle overnights at Lancaster on Saturday before working the branch again the next day. This is only since the diagram shake-up in May 2018. I can't remember any other units overnighting at Lancaster, and certainly no east-side units have done so since privatisation.

I used the phrase 'at least one DMU stables at Lancaster' since I did have it in my head that one unit was the norm. However additional units stable on occasions, such as is planned for this Friday/Saturday, 28/29 Feb, and next Saturday, 7 March. This is to provide a unit which can go ECS to Ulverston the following morning, in order to work the first train to Manchester. (Millom - Barrow - Ulverston being closed for engineering works).
This additional stabling unit comes:
ECS from Barrow (28 Feb);
off 1C50 2310 Preston - Lancaster (usually Barrow) (29 Feb);
off 1P91 2146 Barrow - Lancaster (usually Preston) (7 March).
 

Zooty

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2009
Messages
90
I used the phrase 'at least one DMU stables at Lancaster' since I did have it in my head that one unit was the norm. However additional units stable on occasions, such as is planned for this Friday/Saturday, 28/29 Feb, and next Saturday, 7 March. This is to provide a unit which can go ECS to Ulverston the following morning, in order to work the first train to Manchester. (Millom - Barrow - Ulverston being closed for engineering works).
This additional stabling unit comes:
ECS from Barrow (28 Feb);
off 1C50 2310 Preston - Lancaster (usually Barrow) (29 Feb);
off 1P91 2146 Barrow - Lancaster (usually Preston) (7 March).
Well, yes, there are always going to be odd cases for engineering or other disruptions. I was referring to regular scheduled stabling.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top