Alternative route for HS2 phase 2 proposed with Manchester as through station

Discussion in 'Infrastructure & Stations' started by tasky, 7 May 2019.

  1. Kettledrum

    Kettledrum Member

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    These journey time reductions would be hugely welcomed by passengers in these areas. It's taken years and years of painstaking research and expensive consultancy to get to this stage, and even now it's uncertain that route 2b will ever get built.

    I do wonder what has motivated these individuals to undermine a scheme which has been thought out at length and offers something for huge swathes of the country.

    What breathtaking arrogance.

    What astonishing disregard for the people who would benefit from the amazing journey time reductions between Birmingham to Sheffield, Leeds, Derby, Nottingham, Newcastle and beyond.

    Manchester is already going to benefit hugely from HS2. The benefits of HS2 need to be shared out across the country. It would be disasterous if Manchester was allowed to suck up even more of the money so that other cities in other parts of the country don't get anything at all. That's just plain selfish, and would build up terrible resentment of people elsewhere.

    The authors of this paper may have won some new friends in Manchester, but they have surely tarnished their reputations in many other parts of the country.
     
  2. Kettledrum

    Kettledrum Member

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    I'm sorry, but there are so many flaws in this I don't really know where to start, but I'll try:

    Upgrading or up rating existing lines is not a realistic option. The economic damage, the disruption and the expense mean it's not viable...hence why brand new high speed lines are being proposed, after spending £millions on expert consultants, and learning the lessons from the last WCML upgrade and the electrification of the GWML.

    Take away your flawed assumptions on
    - upgraded East Coast Main Line
    - upgraded Midland Main Line
    - upgraded Birmingham to Derby Line,

    and then we can move onto:

    - line speed over the WCML to Scotland - this is very curvy compared to the East Coast Main Line. So much so in fact, we currently use tilting trains. It would be wrong to assume that this would be the best option to connect Scotland to HS2.
    - journey times - would London to Leeds via Manchester really be quicker....and why don't Sheffield to Leeds passengers seem to matter?
    - cost: Tunneling is hugely expensive, whereas the Eastern leg HS2a is expected to be significantly cheaper because of the nature of the land on the route.
    - the politics - reference to "all politicians are focusing on NPR" is wrong. The politicians south and East of a line from Birmingham to Sheffield probably don't give a monkey's - and there are an awful lot of marginal seats in this area. If there had to be a choice between NPR HS3 and HS2a, I suspect politicians would be very divided, but more in favour of HS2a for all the reasons set out in the official research, consultations and publications to date.
     
  3. si404

    si404 Member

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    where were they? I've not seen any facts, and your uncommon nonsense has no semblance of logic!

    Seriously your argument is that
    1) a new build railway with relatively low construction costs is apparently too expensive, so
    2) propose wholesale upgrading about 5 times the length of existing track to get the same benefit for core cities (and forget other places on the lines) as that's apparently going to be cheaper (spoiler: it isn't)
    3) in order to promote a massively expensive new build tunnelled route rather than upgrade roughly the same length of existing tracks.

    Points 1 and 2 render 3 completely illogical.
     
  4. Kettledrum

    Kettledrum Member

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    and this is just complete nonsense. Huge teams of very well qualified accountants and economists have scrutinized the business case, and the existing official scheme has been drawn up in the light of their advice.
     
  5. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Oh I know it is, which leads us neatly to the problem....

    Any new alignment under the Pennines is going to be way more costly than HS2 2b. Firstly you have to deal with the bore itself, where do you take the line out of eastern Manchester and start the tunnelling? Once past the eastern side of the M60, the topography rapidly becomes challenging and you'll need either to find a relatively smooth climb up towards the summits, which generally would involve using the valleys or start your boring quite early meaning a much longer & more challenging dig. Plus keep in mind, its not just a case of digging a hole from a to b, you will need ventilation & escape routes, so the lower down the hill you start, the more of these you need & the more expensive they will be. And that's before we reach Yorkshire.

    On this side of the Pennines the topography is equally challenging, with the added issue that the natural routes through the river valleys would either need to find a way of weaving through the towns & villages, or tunnelling more or less all the way to Leeds. The former would slow the line & cause no end of objections, the latter would involve a project almost as challenging as the Channel Tunnel, and almost as long, maybe even more! This would put decades on the project, because as far as I can tell no-one has proposed an actual new alignment under the Pennines between Leeds & Manchester, just a vague Crayola line across the map.

    Don't get me wrong, I would love to see a high speed alignment here, but NPR is a political buzzword for kicking the can down the road, or in this case up & over Marsden Moor. Attaching NPR to an alternative to HS2 2b kicks this even further into the murk. If this were to be the way for for the government / DfT, I would firmly stand by my assertion that no HS alignment would reach Yorkshire (and possibly Greater Manchester) this side of 2050.
     
  6. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    Heathrow sees something like 5 million local (within UK) flights, serving it would be comparable to adding somewhere Basingstoke to the HS network (that's assuming that all those passengers could use HS2). Which is why it was dropped.
     
  7. Glen-Ped

    Glen-Ped On Moderation

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    Teams of economists have come to the conclusion that HS2 overall has little to no business case. HS2 is the most disliked and criticised public works project I have ever come across.

    NPR has overwhelming support. I have not read, or heard, anyone criticising the scheme. NPR, and the network in general, would greatly benefit from a Pennines 'base' tunnel, which would assist in merging the whole of the North of England with NPT acting as a network linear hub. The eastern leg of HS2 is merely duplicating existing lines being largely a waste of money.

    NPR adds a new dynamic to HS2, meaning parts of the original Y plan can be dropped.
     
  8. Kettledrum

    Kettledrum Member

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    Again more nonsense.

    In the 21 hours since you joined this site, you have posted over 30 comments, passionately objecting to HS2, and nothing in any other thread.

    Some would call this trolling.

    Are you an official campaigner for the anti HS2 brigade?
     
  9. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    That's because NPR has no route, nor forecasted costs, so no-one objects because it is all in Crayola. Like I said, a buzzword & nothing more. If anyone seriously came up with a proposed alignment, cost & effects on communities then we'd see if it were quite so popular.
     
  10. quantinghome

    quantinghome Member

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    The behaviour and content of posts is consistent with a frequently banned member on skyscrapercity.
     
  11. Glen-Ped

    Glen-Ped On Moderation

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    The concept of NPR has overwhelming support.
     
  12. Glen-Ped

    Glen-Ped On Moderation

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    I have been in another thread. I have some time on my hands. I am not objecting to HS2, just reporting alternatives and pointing to the way it may eventually be - read the media and it is obvious it will be amended and cut down. The favourite to be the new PM wants to scrap HS2 and go ahead with NPR. If BoJo keeps HS2 it will only be in a cut down form. What that is, is open to speculation, but that can be honed down to what the public bods are saying.

    It all looks like a cut down version. Why? Because it was a bad plan to begin with. And NPR changes matters.

    Those who think the current HS2 plan is wonderful on here, and want it to go ahead, see dark shady shadows of people with HS2 knives in their teeth. Quite humorous really.
     
    Last edited: 2 Jul 2019
  13. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    And that is all it is, and all it will remain to be until someone proposes a route, works our the financing etc. Nothing firm like HS2 2b has been proposed, so there are no specifics to object against.
     
  14. Glen-Ped

    Glen-Ped On Moderation

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    All points that NPR will go ahead, no matter what the route, design, etc. While HS2 is still up in the air over phase 1, which has started construction.
     
  15. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    A through station in Manchester for NPR is unlikely for a long time, if ever.
    It is more likely that the route would proceed Eastwards from the Airport.
     
  16. Bantamzen

    Bantamzen Established Member

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    Sorry what points to anything? There is no design, no suggested alignments, no consultations, no budget projections, just a vague idea of what some people think might be a workable option. That points to directly nothing.

    Like I said, I actually support the idea, but understand the reality. NPR isn't going to happen in anything like the timescale of HS2 2b, which by the way areas like Leeds have spent many years building a new business strategy around. So if HS2 2b goes by the wayside, NPR will not simply become the alternative. You are just going around in very small circles, so I will leave it there until you have something slightly more concrete to bring to the discussion.
     
  17. Glen-Ped

    Glen-Ped On Moderation

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    Keep up. The House of Lords Economic Select Committee recommended a few weeks back to merge NPR and phase 2B design, or parts of 2b. So they happen simultaneously. Read on...
    https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/hs2-fights-future-28-06-2019/

    "The first steps to fully integrate the second phase of High Speed 2 (HS2) with NPR have been announced in HS2 Ltd’s phase 2b design refinement consultation.

    The integration of the two schemes – which up until now have been developed separately – will lead to the development of NPR in “close” co-ordination with HS2, and is “intended to make use of HS2 lines where that makes sense”."
     
  18. dggar

    dggar Member

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    The poster Glen-Ped is likely to be the poster who has been banned many times on SkyScraperCity known as John Burns. I would suggest that everyone puts this poster on ignore as this poster thrives on provoking others to respond to the "ideas" that are put forward.
     
  19. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    How are the latest petitions going? Any of them made it to 100,000 yet?
     
  20. Glen-Ped

    Glen-Ped On Moderation

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    Mod, do I have to put up with this nonsense? AT first I thought it was a joke. If this poster has views on HS2/NPR he can always express them in proper debate. We can't all agree with him all of the time.
    The councils are expressing their displeasure.
     
  21. MarkyT

    MarkyT Established Member

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    I think what MIGHT happen in the NPR/HS2 synergy space is that, under NPR, certain elements in the HS2 Phase 2B West leg could be brought forward to be delivered in parallel with Phase 2A by a separate project delivery organisation. That could lead to earlier HS2 service via (mostly) new infrastructure all the way into Manchester and Liverpool and a possible solution to Manchester's Oxford Road corridor problem (i.e. - diverting trans-pennine express services away from the Ordsall chord via a new Manchester tunnel between the new combined HS2/NPR terminal at Piccadilly and Miles Platting), but none of that would undermine the case for Phase 2B East at all with its SIGNIFICANT time savings to the East Midlands and North East that would be impossible to achieve on existing routes. Phase 2B East strengthens the case for the initial Phase 1 investment. The key benefit of HS2 as a whole is that the trunk segment below Birmingham provides significant journey time and capacity benefits for all three major mainlines heading north out of London. My notion of NPR is it will be more likely to be a medium speed (up to 250kph) network of lines cobbled together from sections of existing routes connected with new construction, much of that in tunnel. The completion of these routes at the full very high speed HS2 trunk speed would be unproductive as distances between stops are not sufficient to sustain very long distance high speed running, so more emphasis on fast acceleration could bring similar benefits more affordably. Thus the NPR elements could not deliver the time saving benefits to the North East from London that the current Eastern leg proposal can deliver, and clearly cannot address East Midlands and South Yorkshire at all. Running all the fast Leeds and Newcastle HS2 services via Manchester would also consume many paths on the trans-pennine routes that would not be available for NE - Liverpool trains. Base tunnels through mountainous regions are long, drawn out projects. The Gotthard one took some 17 years to open from breaking ground. Planning for that facility had begun some 7 years earlier when the Swiss voted to reduce trans-Alpine road traffic, although outline ideas for a deep base tunnel concept had been discussed since the 1940s.
     
  22. 6Gman

    6Gman Established Member

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    Which councils?

    What "displeasure"?
     
  23. DimTim

    DimTim Member

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    NPR has not been defined as yet.
    General consensus is that the northern cities plural need improvement in their connectivity. Not just connecting Leeds to Manchester.

    One suggestion was connecting Liverpool to Hull - via ?? Still to be defined. Bradford has been suggested with central underground station. Does the line then go through Leeds & York?

    What about Sheffield? Sheffield - Leeds it's intended to use HS2b. On BBC Look North this week they suggested an HS2 station was now being considered just north of Thurnscoe - off the main HS2 route but on the 'northern Sheffield loop' to locate the other South Yorkshire boroughs disappointed that the original Meadowhall station was no longer in plan.

    It has also been suggested a road tunnel be considered for improving Sheffield - Manchester ( providing relief for the digested M62) with ongoing link towards M18 near Doncaster. As commented previously this may also be the alignment of a rail tunnel with Delta junction around Barnsley providing fast route to both Leeds & Sheffield.

    To provide connectivity in the North NPR does not need to provide 300kph routes.
    Comparison has been made between Paddington & Reading with Manchester - Leeds/Sheffield. A bit of continuous 125 mph track would provide the connectivity required avoiding slow junctions (Stalybridge, Heaton Lodge, Hazel Grove,, Chinley Dore).The cities are all within 30/40 miles of each other HS3 route is not required.
     
  24. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    Buckinghamshire County Council, London Borough of Hillingdon, Warwickshire County Council, Leicestershire County Council, Oxfordshire County Council, Coventry City Council, Camden Borough Council, Northamptonshire and Staffordshire.

    Many of which are part of 51m (who haven't updated any news since December 2016), and most are critical (rather than outrightly opposed) of HS2 for the simple reason that they want the best outcome for their area.

    However there's also a list of councils which are in favour of it including; Birmingham, Bristol, Cardiff, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Leeds, Liverpool, Manchester, Newcastle, Nottingham, and Sheffield.

    As such there's no clear argument that just because some Councils oppose HS2 that is enough to suggest that it should be cancelled, as there's some Councils (notably mostly bigger) which support it
     
  25. HSTEd

    HSTEd Established Member

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    Going less than 300kph doesn't actually save very much.
    And I think the Japanese example is instructive, they operate 270km/h lines with 20 mile stop spacings, let alone 30-40 miles.

    With (nearly) all axles motored the accelerations available to modern high speed trainsets are enormous.

    With 20 mile stop spacings they achieve service-average speeeds of nearly 110mph.......
     
  26. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    If they are then maybe they could answer the following, early on in the campaign to stop HS2 it was said that growth wouldn't hit predictions and fall well sorry just like it did on HS1, well 9 years in and growth (at 2.5% per year as predicted) should be at about 25% more than 2008/09 (the last year for which there was data before HS2 was announced), whilst rail growth for the opening of Phase 1 was expected to be about 50%, how does that compare to what's been seen?

     
  27. tomuk

    tomuk Member

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    Although overall I'm a supporter of HS2 some I think some constructive criticism is needed. For example two of the changes to the 2b route being consulted on are changes at M42/A5 junction and M1 Nr Nottingham which avoid proposed expensive/disruptive/slow rebuilds of both sections of motorway. Who's idea was it in the first place that rebuilding two of the busier bits of motorway in the midlands was the way to go?
     
  28. The Ham

    The Ham Established Member

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    I agree that it's always good to be critical of projects where they are getting things wrong, so that they can be changed for the better. As an example, pushing HS2 to look to reducing their impact of their emissions. However starting that it shouldn't be built as it's got 120 year (compared with today) CO2 pushback period when it's not known what the alternative would look like (chances are that's more road congestion and more flights) as it could be the least worst option.

    It's also worth noting that this (and the 25% of new journeys it "creates") are in baseline of today and doesn't consider the population growth which is expected. Which by the very nature of their being more people is likely to mean more journeys and more emissions. It is right that we should be wanting to reduce our emissions from today, however it does leave HS2 open to criticism which it shouldn't really be getting.
     
  29. Meerkat

    Meerkat Member

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    Is it due to diversions - when I went Gib was fogged in so we had to be bussed to fly out of Malaga, and it sounded like it wasn’t that rare?
     
  30. Howardh

    Howardh Established Member

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    Regular. We're gonna have issues when Brits travrlling to Gib land in Malaga as a diversion after Brexit and haven't filled in the ETIAS on the grounds they don't need to for Gib. Malaga can arrange one there and then I suppose, but I but what if someone has a criminal record which prohibits one from an ETIAS or visa? There's lots of these little things which our Brexit MPs haven't thought about.
     

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