Am I covered in the event of delays?

[gray1404]

Another thread has caused me to post this one. I regularly travel from Formby to various destinations long distance. I will catch the train from Formby using my free travel pass issued by Merseytravel then collect my ticket from the TVM at either Liverpool South Parkway or Liverpool Lime Street before onward travel. I always ensure I have booked my onward ticket from Liverpool before setting off from Formby and have the confirmation email with the collection reference with me on my phone. I do not make a special trip into Liverpool to collect the ticket in advance of travel, I just collect it on the way though.

Another thread on here has suggested that when passengers are using split tickets they do not have protection unless they have a contract with the railway to be carried though to their final destination upon starting their journey. So, if I was delayed on Merseyrail getting into Liverpool am I still covered to get the next train in the above situation.

I would say I am because I have evidence of contract with the booking confirmation before starting my journey. Thoughts?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

You may have evidence of a contract, but a condition of the contract is surely that you're in possession of a ticket, not just a booking.

Nevertheless I believe you would be protected, so long as collecting the ticket is not the cause of you missing your train.

 

[bb21]

You may have evidence of a contract, but a condition of the contract is surely that you're in possession of a ticket, not just a booking.

Your argument would fall down if the origin station had no collection facilities.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Your argument would fall down if the origin station had no collection facilities.

It wouldn't fall down if none were advertised as being available there when purchasing the ticket.

If a ticket machine is normally available, and it's not working etc, there's absolutely no question. However if the customer knows there isn't ever one there that allows a ticket to be collected, it's wholly down to the customer to manage the situation.

Surely this is better managed by just purchasing some sort of electronic ticket!

 

[mmh]

It wouldn't fall down if none were advertised as being available there when purchasing the ticket.

If a ticket machine is normally available, and it's not working etc, there's absolutely no question. However if the customer knows there isn't ever one there that allows a ticket to be collected, it's wholly down to the customer to manage the situation.

Surely this is better managed by just purchasing some sort of electronic ticket!

The medium of the OP's onward ticket from Lime Street or South Parkway is of no relevance. They will still be using two separate tickets (including the Merseytravel pass) to complete their journey.

 

[island]

I don't think having to collect the ticket makes a difference here; the contract exists and evidence of it is available in the form of, for example, the booking confirmation.

I am not entirely sure, however, that there is a contract for travel from Formby to Liverpool. Under English law a contract requires consideration, in other words that both parties to the contract must give something up. A free ticket or pass may not meet this standard.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

The medium of the OP's onward ticket from Lime Street or South Parkway is of no relevance. They will still be using two separate tickets (including the Merseytravel pass) to complete their journey.

It does make a massive difference.

The user cannot claim to be using split tickets - as no combination of tickes is held until completion of the first journey using a pass.

Simply purchasing a ticket and having a confirmation is not the same as possessing and using a ticket.

To use split tickets surely you need to possess them prior to commencing your first journey. Otherwise the customer is travelling with a free pass and a booking confirmation only- the latter of which is not valid for travel, so cannot be considered as a ticket, therefore split tickets are not being used.

If the machine at the origin is broken, that is a signifigantly different situation in my view, as there would have been a reasonable expectation of collecting the ticket. If the machine does not allow the collection of tickets (ever) there can be no reasonable expectation.

E-Tickets would solve this, which is why there is a difference.

 

[gray1404]

Just to confirm there is not TVM that offers ticket collection at Formby. I start my journey at Formby using my free travel pass. Then switch onto another ticket e.g. Off Peak or Advance at Liverpool Lime Street or Liverpool South Parkway. While at the latter station I collect my pre-purchased ticket.

My understanding is that my free travel pass + off peak/advance ticket is considered a valid split ticket for the purposes of the NRCoT using one or more tickets to complete my journey.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Is there likely to be a difference in the cost of a long distance ticket from Formby to XXX as oppossed to Lime St or South Parkway to XXX?

 

[Watershed]

Is there likely to be a difference in the cost of a long distance ticket from Formby to XXX as oppossed to Lime St or South Parkway to XXX?

There is likely to be a substantial difference if the onward ticket is a "WMT only" ticket (whether Advance or flexible). As there are no "WMT and Merseyrail" tickets.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Just to confirm there is not TVM that offers ticket collection at Formby. I start my journey at Formby using my free travel pass. Then switch onto another ticket e.g. Off Peak or Advance at Liverpool Lime Street or Liverpool South Parkway. While at the latter station I collect my pre-purchased ticket.

My understanding is that my free travel pass + off peak/advance ticket is considered a valid split ticket for the purposes of the NRCoT using one or more tickets to complete my journey.

But you do not hold a split ticket. You hold a booking confirmation which is not the same thing.

If the machine at Formby cannot be used to collect tickets, and you know this, it seems to be that you are making 2 x seperate journeys, as you do not (or will not) hold a second ticket until completion of your first journey.

If you have the ticket in your possession leaving Formby, you do have a split ticket and in my view would be covered.

It legally appears to make zero difference whatsoever in your case that you have merely purchased one.

The only situation where I can see where you would be OK doing this - is if the machine at Formby normally allows you to collect tickets, and was for some reason, out of order when you left your origin.

This is a very black and white view, although I believe it is correct. However, I suspect that most of the time, you'd not encounter a problem.

I think the time a ticket is issued is also printed on the ticket, which could raise some eyebrows. You'd be claiming that you used a combination of tickets that had been issued AFTER you'd already started your journey, and completed the first journey entirely.

 

[Wallsendmag]

cough cough eTickets

 

[Haywain]

cough cough eTickets

cough cough subject to availability

 

[6Gman]

Isn't the issue here the anomalous position of Merseyrail stations?

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

Isn't the issue here the anomalous position of Merseyrail stations?

I'd find it very odd that a self service machine deliberately can't issue prepaid tickets. I don't think I've encountered a (working) machine that couldn't!

I wonder what the rationale is.... Maybe to make passengers use the ticket office, if one exists?

 

[JBuchananGB]

None of Merseyrail’s TVMs support TOD.

You could visit the NRE web site journey planner and generate an itinerary for your intended journey, and then visit the LNR web site and book the ticket.
I looked at a journey on 21 June from Formby to Birmingham New Street, and NRE generated the itinerary departing Formby at 11.22, change at Liverpool South Parkway departing 12.18 arriving Birmingham 13.51. LNR will sell you a ticket from LSP to BHM for £12 without a railcard discount. I think that with proof of intended itinerary, as long as were at Formby in time to catch the 11.22 train, if Merseyrail delayed you, such that you missed the connection, and the next LNR train is 60 minutes later, you would be entitled to claim off Merseyrail. Merseyrail's compensation scheme is however a bit frugal

Refunds - Day Tickets

This information sets out Merseyrail’s claims process, which is in line with the National Conditions of Rail Travel.

www.merseyrail.org

If your ticket involves travel on other lines, but you are delayed on our network, you may be entitled to compensation equal to 20% of the cost of your ticket price.

 

[Tazi Hupefi]

None of Merseyrail’s TVMs support TOD.

You could visit the NRE web site journey planner and generate an itinerary for your intended journey, and then visit the LNR web site and book the ticket.
I looked at a journey on 21 June from Formby to Birmingham New Street, and NRE generated the itinerary departing Formby at 11.22, change at Liverpool South Parkway departing 12.18 arriving Birmingham 13.51. LNR will sell you a ticket from LSP to BHM for £12 without a railcard discount. I think that with proof of intended itinerary, as long as were at Formby in time to catch the 11.22 train, if Merseyrail delayed you, such that you missed the connection, and the next LNR train is 60 minutes later, you would be entitled to claim off Merseyrail. Merseyrail's compensation scheme is however a bit frugal

Refunds - Day Tickets

This information sets out Merseyrail’s claims process, which is in line with the National Conditions of Rail Travel.

www.merseyrail.org

Just seems far easier to book the second ticket as an E-Ticket so you already have it, and no need to collect!

 

[JBuchananGB]

It may be prudent to hold the ticket from Liverpool when starting the journey from Formby, either as an e-ticket of having had it delivered by post, but more concerning the Merseyrail's wording. Not only is compensation limited to 20% of the ticket price, but it implies that the ticket held must include the Merseyrail component of the journey. Living as I do near the Merseyrail area, I have on a number of occasions travelled on their services to destinations beyond, both with through tickets and with split tickets, splitting at Liverpool. I do not hold a Merseytravel pass, so my situation is not quite the same as that of the OP. Merseyrail are a law unto themselves.

 

[island]

I'd find it very odd that a self service machine deliberately can't issue prepaid tickets. I don't think I've encountered a (working) machine that couldn't!

I wonder what the rationale is.... Maybe to make passengers use the ticket office, if one exists?

Miseryrail's TVMs do not service ticket on demand. I believe this to be because they don't sell tickets in advance and see no need to spend on providing a system that only serves other TOCs.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Miseryrail's TVMs do not service ticket on demand. I believe this to be because they don't sell tickets in advance and see no need to spend on providing a system that only serves other TOCs.

To be honest that's the case with a lot of TOC TVMs. A large proportion of the tickets issued by the TVMs I help to look after are ToDs. With our website fulfilling over 80% of it's sales to eTickets thats an awful lot of money we're paying for the lack of investment by third parties.

 

[robbeech]

But you do not hold a split ticket. You hold a booking confirmation which is not the same thing.

What do the rules specifically say. What does the word ‘hold’ mean? Is it defined? Do you hold a ticket only if it’s physically in your hand (or on your phone) or do you hold a ticket if you have the ability to collect it. When the ticket is for that train clearly you need to physically hold it, I’m not sure the definition is strict enough to say the other but I’m not sure it matters, infact. I’m not sure any of it matters.

None of Merseyrail’s TVMs support TOD.

And of course they don’t do e-tickets so there would still have to be a split and different formats.

So where might this become a problem?
Is the protection to do with being able to get the next service on an advance if your connection is late? Or is it delay repay on multiple tickets if your connection is late and you miss it ? Or both.

If you hold an advance and use your pass and your MR is late and this causes you to miss your connection you’re entitled to board the next one as per the rules. I don’t see that you’d have any MORE issues with the guard on the next service just because of the time you printed your ticket. That’s not to say you wouldn’t be refused, made to buy an SOS, prosecuted, shot on sight or whatever else the railway sees fit to do nowadays for getting the next train using a combination of tickets, but I don’t think the time printed will make the situation worse.

as for delay repay, there’s likely not an immediate rush, so you can complete your journey and you will have time to collect your tickets. So by the time you come to claim you’ll have all of your tickets. Again, I’m not convinced that a delay repay is MORE likely to be rejected on a split ticket claim based on the time the ticket was printed. Again, as before, I’d fully expect your claim to be rejected incorrectly but that’s just another day on the railway.

The only potential issue I see is a short connection time. If you give yourself the minimum connection time but have to collect the tickets and there’s a queue or the machine is out of order, this could cause problems but I would hope you’d be sensible enough to minimise the risk by getting an earlier connection.

 

[Watershed]

What do the rules specifically say. What does the word ‘hold’ mean? Is it defined? Do you hold a ticket only if it’s physically in your hand (or on your phone) or do you hold a ticket if you have the ability to collect it. When the ticket is for that train clearly you need to physically hold it, I’m not sure the definition is strict enough to say the other but I’m not sure it matters, infact. I’m not sure any of it matters.

The NRCoT (14.1) say:

Unless shown below, you may use a combination of two or more Tickets to make a journey provided that the train services you use call at the station(s) where you change from one Ticket to another.

Nowhere does it say you must 'hold all tickets before starting' or anything to that effect.

If someone has bought multiple tickets before any delays/disruption were known about, I fail to see how it matters whether they've picked them all up yet, provided they have a valid ticket at all points of their journey.

 

[JBuchananGB]

It would be good if @gray1404 would come back and let us know whether he has received a sufficient answer. I know that the general principles of "delay repay" as implemented by most TOCs include compensation based on percentages of the sum total of split tickets, and number of minutes delayed. However Merseyrail does not behave like "most TOCs". I have referred to their policy in post #16 above.
In the example I quoted above, If the Merseyrail train was delayed resulting in missing the connection at LPY and thus being delayed by an hour on trip to Birmingham, the OP might just about be able to make a case for 20% of £12 compensation or £2.40.

 

[Watershed]

In the example I quoted above, If the Merseyrail train was delayed resulting in missing the connection at LPY and thus being delayed by an hour on trip to Birmingham, the OP might just about be able to make a case for 20% of £12 compensation or £2.40.

I'm surprised that Merseyrail haven't cottoned onto the fact that the minimum compensation levels have increased over the last few years. Under the NRCoT, you are entitled to compensation of 50% of the value of your ticket if you experience a 60+ minute delay, regardless of the cause or circumstance.

 

[Haywain]

The only potential issue I see is a short connection time. If you give yourself the minimum connection time but have to collect the tickets and there’s a queue or the machine is out of order, this could cause problems but I would hope you’d be sensible enough to minimise the risk by getting an earlier connection.

I agree with this point. If tickets have to be collected at the interchange station it is important not to rely on the minimum interchange time.