Gareth4949
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I think it's one of the semi fasts Brighton which will stop at Horley off peak
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Amended timetable for Govia Thameslink Railway services on Brighton mainline
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RichardKing
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Yes, they will.
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Gareth4949
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Do you know what happens to the carriages that are detached at Eastbourne from the 17:27 Victoria to Ore Service
RichardKing
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They form 5F42 into the carriage sidings, where they spend the night. The following morning, they shunt back into Eastbourne (under the headcode of 5D03) to form a service to Hastings (2D03).
I was quite amazed when I saw the full list of movements to/from Eastbourne Carriage Sidings; there's quite a lot!
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can't the brighton no longer express trains that will stop at horley replace those south coast trains? always seems an odd stop to me might as well be gatwick airport it is that near
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oh just seen this
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stupid question but do the littlehampton/ore trains go via redhill
Much of the development in Reigate and Banstead borough is taking place in Horley so it will increase in importance over time and the stop there in the Brighton semi-fast replaces the current stop in one of the Arun Valley services.
It stops at Horley instead of Gatwick.
Littlehampton / Ore services do not go via Redhill.
RichardKing
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As far as I can see, the vast majority of Thameslink services serving Redhill will run only between Bedford and Gatwick Airport/Three Bridges. However, there will be the odd peak-time service that runs right down to Brighton.
It isn't really an improvement. Since December last year there have been 6tph of "Thameslink" services south of East Croydon. 4tph from Bedford of which 2tph go to Brighton and 2tph go only as far as Three Bridges. The other service has been 2tph London Bridge to Brighton.
The 2tph for Three Bridges has been running non-stop via Redhill crossing to the fast at Norwood Junction and then back to the slow at Stoats Nest Junction. What will happen from December is that it runs on the slow all the way from Crystal Palace to Three Bridges and picks up the stops of the current London Bridge to Reigate / Tonbridge service north of Redhill. South of Redhill they only stop at Gatwick Airport and Three Bridges.
This is the Thameslink service at Redhill on 15 December in the new timetable which you will see is off-peak only.
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...5/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TL
This is it on the first Saturday of the new timetable, 19 December
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...9/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TL
The current Bedford to Brighton and London Bridge to Brighton services maintain the 4tph off-peak "Thameslink" to Brighton. By the time the Bedford to Three Bridges train reaches Three Bridges the Bedford to Brighton service has caught up with it (and northbound the need to shoehorn in the Reigate / Tonbridge to London Victoria train means that the Three Bridges to Bedford train leaves Three Bridges before the Brighton to Bedford train that leaves East Croydon 15 minutes earlier).
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/sea...9/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=TL
The fact that it goes to Three Bridges at all seems to be for operational convenience (ie the availability of platform 1 there to turn it round in)
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Random thought.
It would be hugely expensive, but the lines are very, very close south of Merstham. Could it be worthwhile widening ~2km of railway so the fast lines could serve Redhill? You'd obviously have to combine this with a rebuild of the station to ensure you had sufficient platform capacity, but it would enable vastly more services to call, because I don't see platforms appearing on the Quarry lines any time soon...
Minstral25
Established Member
It only originally went to Gatwick but pressure off the Redhill Route from users very unhappy at changing trains at Gatwick meant it has been extended to Three Bridges (Which also slightly helps the loss of Redhill to Crawley services)
As a service North from Redhill as I said before it is virtually useless as the later Victoria train gets you to Blackfriars and St Pancras via the tube 10 minutes faster
Whilst on the face of it these changes are great for Brighton folk, GTR have been very sneaky/clever here - the popular Brighton-Victoria route will now have 2 instead of 3 services per hour where Super Off Peak and Advance singles are valid to Victoria, and these will have additional stops too.
The extended Gatwick Expresses meanwhile will cost a lot more (especially for tourists who tend not to have railcard discounts).
I'm sure we can expect a lot of confusion and unfair penalty fares..
The extended Gatwick Expresses meanwhile will cost a lot more (especially for tourists who tend not to have railcard discounts).
I'm sure we can expect a lot of confusion and unfair penalty fares..
They may be very very close in your eyes/imagination/estimation but there's a whole lotta residences in between as well as a girt big hill. You could always go left field and re-open the fast line platforms at Earlswood though.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2397775,-0.1650406,577m/data=!3m1!1e3
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Sorry, I think you have misunderstood me. They're only ~45m apart with just wasteland between them here:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.2596804,-0.152333,232m/data=!3m1!1e3
What problem does a crossover at Merstham solve? Yes, it would allow faster services from Redhill and Reigate but with the best will in the world there is only ever going to be a half hourly 'fast' service northbound from Redhill and is the expenditure really going to pass a cost benefit analysis when you could, with better timetabling and investment on the junction at South Croydon, accommodate the entire service from Redhill on the slow lines.
Capacity from Gatwick and stations further south is maximised by running all services on the Quarry line without the complication of any services joining the fast line between Gatwick Airport and East Croydon.
Furthermore, a crossover south of Merstham means that the trains using it can't stop at Coulsdon South or Merstham and the capacity at those stations is just as acute an issue as it is at Redhill.
The more I look at the December 2015 timetable the more I notice a poor distribution of services - eg the big gap on off-peak services to London Bridge from East Croydon in the half hour when the Uckfield service doesn't run which is something just short of 20 minutes then four trains in the next 10 minutes.
Bishopstone
Established Member
I can't see this has been raised elsewhere on the forum.
What is the story behind the 'experimental' cancellation of half the off-peak GatEx service, for a week starting on Monday 23rd? Also a number of off-peak Brighton-London Bridge Thameslink trains will now terminate at Gatwick.
We are only three weeks away from the new timetable. Isn't it a bit late to start tweaking the outgoing timetable to see if it can be made to work better?
There's clearly a bigger story in the background, but what?
What is the story behind the 'experimental' cancellation of half the off-peak GatEx service, for a week starting on Monday 23rd? Also a number of off-peak Brighton-London Bridge Thameslink trains will now terminate at Gatwick.
We are only three weeks away from the new timetable. Isn't it a bit late to start tweaking the outgoing timetable to see if it can be made to work better?
There's clearly a bigger story in the background, but what?
Being cynical, is it coincidence that there are ongoing reports of crew shortage at the moment? I suspect it gets them out of paying fines/delay repay.
There also seems to be spin involved, because they have not (yet) published a list of all the changes, instead referring people to the journey planner to look up individual journeys.
It is important to passengers who use the off-peak services to be able to see the overall changes to the service pattern, without jumping through hoops. It would be interesting to see their defininition of 'off-peak'.
Bishopstone
Established Member
Yes, the run in to Christmas is always difficult, with drivers using up leave days to attend to the same festive commitments as the rest of us. Also, is driver resource now being diverted to type familiarisation on the 387/2s and 700s?
I wonder whether airport stakeholders were given the same notice (24 hours) as passengers?
What's going to change in three weeks time that will make 4 GatEx per hour viable again?
I wonder whether airport stakeholders were given the same notice (24 hours) as passengers?
What's going to change in three weeks time that will make 4 GatEx per hour viable again?
berneyarms
Established Member
The half-hourly service on Gatwick Express is only between 09:20 and 11:50.
Bishopstone
Established Member
Really? A quick check on Journey Planner seems to show afternoon and evening cancellations outside the peak. EG 20.14 & 20.44 from Victoria.
berneyarms
Established Member
I'm going by Realtimetrains - that's the only period that there is a 30 minute service.
Perhaps there are more changes than shown there.
Perhaps there are more changes than shown there.
Full list is below (I would've though the 0956 and 1028 TL ones are rather busy with cheap ticket holders..obviously knowing Thameslink they'll cancel these four and then short form the ones behind them!):
Full Thameslink cancellations:
09:56 Brighton-London Bridge
10:28 Brighton-London Bridge
14:42 London Bridge - Brighton
15:12 London Bridge - Brighton
Part Thameslink cancellations Services (terminating short at Gatwick):
10:56 Brighton-London Bridge
11:28 Brighton-London Bridge
11:56 Brighton-London Bridge
12:28 Brighton-London Bridge
12:56 Brighton-London Bridge
13:28 Brighton-London Bridge
13:56 Brighton-London Bridge
Part Thameslink cancellations Services (Starting short at Gatwick):
11:12 London Bridge - Brighton
11:42 London Bridge - Brighton
12:12 London Bridge - Brighton
12:42 London Bridge - Brighton
13:12 London Bridge - Brighton
13:42 London Bridge - Brighton
15:12 London Bridge - Brighton
Southbound Gatwick Express cancellations:
09.14 Victoria-Gatwick
09.44 Victoria-Gatwick
10.14 Victoria-Gatwick
10.44 Victoria-Gatwick
11.14 Victoria-Gatwick
11.44 Victoria-Gatwick
12.14 Victoria-Gatwick
12.44 Victoria-Gatwick
13.14 Victoria-Gatwick
13.44 Victoria-Gatwick
14.14 Victoria-Gatwick
14.44 Victoria-Gatwick
15.14 Victoria-Gatwick
15.44 Victoria-Gatwick
19.14 Victoria-Gatwick
19.44 Victoria-Gatwick
20.14 Victoria-Gatwick
21.14 Victoria-Gatwick
21.44 Victoria-Gatwick
Northbound Gatwick Express cancellations:
09.35 Gatwick-Victoria
10.05 Gatwick-Victoria
10.35 Gatwick-Victoria
11.05 Gatwick-Victoria
11.35 Gatwick-Victoria
12.05 Gatwick-Victoria
12.35 Gatwick-Victoria
13.05 Gatwick-Victoria
13.35 Gatwick-Victoria
14.05 Gatwick-Victoria
14.35 Gatwick-Victoria
15.05 Gatwick-Victoria
15.35 Gatwick-Victoria
16.05 Gatwick-Victoria
20.05 Gatwick-Victoria
20.35 Gatwick-Victoria
21.05 Gatwick-Victoria
21.35 Gatwick-Victoria
22.05 Gatwick-Victoria
22.35 Gatwick-Victoria
Additional stops:
09.45 Littlehampton to Victoria call additionally at Preston Park(Southern service)
10.08 Brighton to Bedford call additionally at Hassocks and Balcombe (Thameslink service)
10.38 Brighton to Bedford call additionally at Hassocks and Wivelsfield (Thameslink service)
13.24 Bedford to Brighton call additionally at Preston Park (Thameslink service)
13.54 Bedford to Brighton call additionally at Balcombe (Thameslink Service)
I imagine unless they change the timings or their is also enough allowances, those services will run late.
The reason for doing this was for reliability in the current weather. I guess if those run late but the others on time it won't matter.
Interestingly the details were not in the Thameslink site when I looked earlier but are on the Southern site. The above link is not mobile friendly. Perhaps they don't expect people to lookup some information whilst on the move and only wish to use journey planners.
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Will Thameslink only ticket be valid on the Southern service from Littlehampton for passengers travelling from Preston Park or any station served by that train and the cancelled Thameslink one?
If there are punctuality issues off peak, necessitating a reduction in service, what about punctuality during the peak? Is that OK?
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I think that the idea is to allow recovery between the peaks - ie if there are delays in the morning peak, the reduction in service during the day gives a chance for the service to recover for the evening peak.
What happens during the peak period itself is a different matter.
What happens during the peak period itself is a different matter.
LBSCR Times
Member
There are no crew savings from the alterations, as the plans were drawn up by Control staff, and crew diagrams were unaltered.
When I looked on the Thameslink website yesterday evening, all the alterations were on there.
asylumxl
Established Member
This travel update has been posted today on the Thameslink website (taken directly from NRE I assume, given they talk about themselves in the third person).
As a regular user i would say their poor punctuality isn't limited to the Autumn season, but that's another topic.
I'm not sure what to make of this. It seems to me as if they are moving the goal posts in order to improve their punctuality figures.
I would like to know what other members of this forum make of this decision. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
As a regular user i would say their poor punctuality isn't limited to the Autumn season, but that's another topic.
I'm not sure what to make of this. It seems to me as if they are moving the goal posts in order to improve their punctuality figures.
I would like to know what other members of this forum make of this decision. Any input would be greatly appreciated.
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Bishopstone
Established Member
But autumn started two months ago, along with dedicated leaf-fall timetables for certain routes. Granted, the season began mild so perhaps leaves have been later in falling, but what is it about this week that gave GTR particular cause for concern? The weather forecast is quite tranquil for late November.
I remain surprised that this plan was settled on Sunday afternoon (it seems), and that on Monday morning the Twitter crew - who I believe sit in the control room now - were scrabbling around trying to establish an official line on mutual ticket acceptance between Thameslink and Southern/GatEx.
And again I ask: given the weather is unexceptional this week, what changes on December 13 which renders 4x GatEx per hour viable again? Is the new off-peak timetable thought to be inherently more robust, even though (if I recall correctly) the number of trains per hour on the BML remains constant?
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