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Amended timetable for Govia Thameslink Railway services on Brighton mainline

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Minstral25

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What problem does a crossover at Merstham solve? Yes, it would allow faster services from Redhill and Reigate but with the best will in the world there is only ever going to be a half hourly 'fast' service northbound from Redhill and is the expenditure really going to pass a cost benefit analysis when you could, with better timetabling and investment on the junction at South Croydon, accommodate the entire service from Redhill on the slow lines.

Capacity from Gatwick and stations further south is maximised by running all services on the Quarry line without the complication of any services joining the fast line between Gatwick Airport and East Croydon.

Furthermore, a crossover south of Merstham means that the trains using it can't stop at Coulsdon South or Merstham and the capacity at those stations is just as acute an issue as it is at Redhill.

Redhill/Reigate generates a lot of traffic - just under 10% of the BML south of East Croydon for the route as a whole - and is a problem that needs a solution. The amount of local users from Redhill/Reigate driving to Oxted and Dorking for cheaper and better services is increasing. At the same time Redhill/Reigate is growing and becoming a bigger destination for passengers as well. New Cinema, Offices and greater shopping in next 3/4 years will increase the footfall through the stations.

The other weakness in the timetable is the lack of regular Brighton service from Redhill. As a commuter who goes both north and south from Redhill now, I have been surprised by the volume of commuters heading to Brighton and the poor connections at Gatwick - which this timetable does not really address.

To compensate and allow for better connections at Three Bridges was why the Bedford services were extended from Gatwick but I am not sure if that will be a solution.
 
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Solent&Wessex

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Right, as I can't actually find the information I want easily, can anyone answer the following:

a) After the timetable changes can I assume there will be no booked 442 diagrams except the Eastbourne peaks, but that they will continue to be used ad-hoc until the 387/2s are fully in traffic?

b) If a) is correct how long is this situation likely to continue for?

c) I may need to make an emergency trip South in the next week or so for some 442 action then, but is this temporary timetable likely to last, or likely to impact on their current duties away from GatEx too much?

Any help appreciated!

Edit:
Having just consulted the Southern website it is actually showing more 442 workings in the new timetables than now (the timetable leaflets mark 442s as a square)!
 
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BzRail

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There are no crew savings from the alterations, as the plans were drawn up by Control staff, and crew diagrams were unaltered.

That may be the case, but I remain cynical. The crew scheduling seems so tight that a problem elsewehere on the network, several hours before, results in one or more 10/12 car peak trains out of London Bridge being cancelled due to no driver or guard. The cancellations often happen at the last minute, despite it being known long before that the required crew were on a delayed train, or a required safety break. So many of us have experienced this it really isn't funny. There never seems to be any standby crew available, able or willing to step in (not a dig at the crew, reasons well covered in other threads).

They (GTR) seem to be just making life easier for themselves. Their woolly explanation just looks like spin. If staff are training on new stock, why not just be honest and say so?



When I looked on the Thameslink website yesterday evening, all the alterations were on there.

Agreed, I found them. They are listed under 'Delays and cancellations' whereas I was looking for a revised timetable. If they are cancellations, it must mean Delay Repay is due to anyone who intended to travel on them, and experienced a >= 30min delay:D
 
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infobleep

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I think that the idea is to allow recovery between the peaks - ie if there are delays in the morning peak, the reduction in service during the day gives a chance for the service to recover for the evening peak.

What happens during the peak period itself is a different matter.
I can see that idea.

Interestingly South West Trains run a similar number of trains, if not more and they haven't felt a need to do this.

Do they have different rail conditions affecting South West Trains lines, meaning this isn't necessary or should South West Trains be looking at what Govia are doing and implement something similar themselves.

I mention South West Trains as I use their services.

Last week Southeastern had changes off peak. So perhaps the people covering the Thameslink / Southern / Gatwick Express services saw how that went and decided to implement something similar.
 

embers25

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This travel update has been posted today on the Thameslink website (taken directly from NRE I assume, given they talk about themselves in the third person).



As a regular user i would say their poor punctuality isn't limited to the Autumn season, but that's another topic.

I'm not sure what to make of this. It seems to me as if they are moving the goal posts in order to improve their punctuality figures.

I would like to know what other members of this forum make of this decision. Any input would be greatly appreciated.

So based on the website TL tickets are now valid on all Southern services (Brighton-London) meaning whilst these changes are on there is no need to pay for the more expensive Southern tickets for many trips. I for one vote these changes become permanent (provided the ticket restriction relaxation remains in effect!!!)
 

physics34

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That may be the case, but I remain cynical. The crew scheduling seems so tight that a problem elsewehere on the network, several hours before, results in one or more 10/12 car peak trains out of London Bridge being cancelled due to no driver or guard. The cancellations often happen at the last minute, despite it being known long before that the required crew were on a delayed train, or a required safety break. So many of us have experienced this it really isn't funny. There never seems to be any standby crew available, able or willing to step in (not a dig at the crew, reasons well covered in other threads).

They (GTR) seem to be just making life easier for themselves. Their woolly explanation just looks like spin. If staff are training on new stock, why not just be honest and say so?





Agreed, I found them. They are listed under 'Delays and cancellations' whereas I was looking for a revised timetable. If they are cancellations, it must mean Delay Repay is due to anyone who intended to travel on them, and experienced a >= 30min delay:D


Alot of the time drivers/guards needing their personal needs breaks isnt known until the driver/guard reporting it him/herself. This should be known before hand but it is rarely acted on until too late.
 

Stow

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I can see that idea.

Interestingly South West Trains run a similar number of trains, if not more and they haven't felt a need to do this.

Do they have different rail conditions affecting South West Trains lines, meaning this isn't necessary or should South West Trains be looking at what Govia are doing and implement something similar themselves.

I mention South West Trains as I use their services.

Last week Southeastern had changes off peak. So perhaps the people covering the Thameslink / Southern / Gatwick Express services saw how that went and decided to implement something similar.

South West Trains run a lot less trains than Southern do (circa 1,800 per day vs circa 2,400 per day) and also have a lot more grade separation on the network so higher capacity and better resilience on the South West mainline vs the BML.
 

asylumxl

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Last week Southeastern had changes off peak. So perhaps the people covering the Thameslink / Southern / Gatwick Express services saw how that went and decided to implement something similar.

There's a trend here. Seems it's Govia's latest trick to make their abysmal performance appear better.
 

infobleep

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South West Trains run a lot less trains than Southern do (circa 1,800 per day vs circa 2,400 per day) and also have a lot more grade separation on the network so higher capacity and better resilience on the South West mainline vs the BML.
I wasn't aware Southern ran more trains. Through Clapham Junction, I'd have through South West Trains ran more but I don't know about Clapham Junction vs East Croydon, which is where Southern trains then split off.

After all its only trains into London that are effected here and not any other part of the network.
 

ComUtoR

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Last week Southeastern had changes off peak. So perhaps the people covering the Thameslink / Southern / Gatwick Express services saw how that went and decided to implement something similar.

It went badly <(
 

gtr driver

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I wasn't aware Southern ran more trains. Through Clapham Junction, I'd have through South West Trains ran more but I don't know about Clapham Junction vs East Croydon, which is where Southern trains then split off.

After all its only trains into London that are effected here and not any other part of the network.

Don't forget South West pretty much only run trains that originate at Waterloo so they have a large concentrated presence at Clapham Junction. Southern serve two terminals and also run an extensive South Coast network so much of their activity is well away from Clapham.
 

LBSCR Times

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Alot of the time drivers/guards needing their personal needs breaks isnt known until the driver/guard reporting it him/herself. This should be known before hand but it is rarely acted on until too late.
Because there are two types of Traincrew when it comes to PNB's.....
Those who tell you to the minute when they are ready, and those who turn up for a right time start, even if it means a few minutes (or more) less!
So, often you rely on the crew indicating what they are taking.
 

southern442

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Am I the only one who thinks it is a bit silly to have the Horsham trains stop at intermediate stations between East Croydon and Redhill but the Tonbridge and Reigate trains are fast? It would make more sense to have them stop, plus it would give the intermediate stations a choice of two different London termini to go from.
 

RichardKing

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Right, as I can't actually find the information I want easily, can anyone answer the following:

a) After the timetable changes can I assume there will be no booked 442 diagrams except the Eastbourne peaks, but that they will continue to be used ad-hoc until the 387/2s are fully in traffic?

b) If a) is correct how long is this situation likely to continue for?

c) I may need to make an emergency trip South in the next week or so for some 442 action then, but is this temporary timetable likely to last, or likely to impact on their current duties away from GatEx too much?

Any help appreciated!

Edit:
Having just consulted the Southern website it is actually showing more 442 workings in the new timetables than now (the timetable leaflets mark 442s as a square)!

I believe the 442s will be used on the two Eastbourne commuter services until 2018, when they will be replaced by 377s.
 

ComUtoR

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What went so wrong? Could they have improved it whilst achieving the desired result?

Many things went wrong. The worst was communicating it to passengers, staff, Drivers and even the Signaler.

They were also dropping important stops (interchanges etc) and one passenger highlighted to me that they had cancelled a stop where no alternative transport was available. The fasts go through the station and there was no local bus that served that station. It left passengers with 1 train an hour and on one day (which was the one I was getting moaned at) the service went to its usual craphole and the services got caped !

Total clusterfork.

The leaffall timetable imho is pointless with 2 minutes added to journey times on some services is an outright mockery. We lose so much time its laughable.

This years attempt to drop some stations en route had potential but it had much more of a negative effect and when it the service breaks it exacerbates the situation because stops were not reinstated and those that were happened last minute and still not communicated to passengers !
 

southern442

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One other thing about the new timetable is they have made the naive assumption that passengers from Redhill only want to go north. They remove the stop from the mainline west services and say "oh, don't worry, the Tonbridge trains go to Victoria too" but what people don't seem to realise is that now a decent sized town has lost its services to the coast.

But don't worry guys, because anyone that uses Redhill station exclusively wants to go north so it's ok!
 

infobleep

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Many things went wrong. The worst was communicating it to passengers, staff, Drivers and even the Signaler.

They were also dropping important stops (interchanges etc) and one passenger highlighted to me that they had cancelled a stop where no alternative transport was available. The fasts go through the station and there was no local bus that served that station. It left passengers with 1 train an hour and on one day (which was the one I was getting moaned at) the service went to its usual craphole and the services got caped !

Total clusterfork.

The leaffall timetable imho is pointless with 2 minutes added to journey times on some services is an outright mockery. We lose so much time its laughable.

This years attempt to drop some stations en route had potential but it had much more of a negative effect and when it the service breaks it exacerbates the situation because stops were not reinstated and those that were happened last minute and still not communicated to passengers !
The leaf fall timetable seems to work in the Cobham line where they add an extra 3 minutes. Only times it seems to not work is when the Woking to Surbiton line or beyond is running with delays.

This morning Cobham line train left Hinchley Wood 2-3 minutes late. Fine as they allow all the additional time between Hinchley Wood and Surbiton. However it wasn't fine due to delays on Woking to Surbiton line. We got held at the junction and again outside Surbiton so was 5 minutes late arriving. That doesn't happen every morning of course.

I think this mornings delays were slippery rails on the mainline. Whilst that to is an issue on the Cobham line, they know it will nearly always happen so have added in additional time. On the mainline it's not certain it will happen so preparing is much harder.

I wonder if some Southern and or Southeastern lines would better for adding time or cancelling stops than others?
 
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tony6499

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Because there are two types of Traincrew when it comes to PNB's.....
Those who tell you to the minute when they are ready, and those who turn up for a right time start, even if it means a few minutes (or more) less!
So, often you rely on the crew indicating what they are taking.

The information is known, if a train is running late the first thing Control and Production Managers should check is the crews next working or if they are PNB etc.

Then they can make contingency plans ahead of needed, if they don't bother to check the late runners then they lay themselves open to the problem getting worse
 

LBSCR Times

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The information is known, if a train is running late the first thing Control and Production Managers should check is the crews next working or if they are PNB etc.

Then they can make contingency plans ahead of needed, if they don't bother to check the late runners then they lay themselves open to the problem getting worse

Checking is one thing, that's the easy part, but you still need to ask them when they arrive. Of course not every location has a PM either, so you're relying on the crew actually contacting / being contactable, before knowing what you can do.
Which is what I indicated.
 

ScotGG

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There's a trend here. Seems it's Govia's latest trick to make their abysmal performance appear better.

I'd love to know how much of this is decided by NR and how much the TOC.

Southeastern's service cuts in recent weeks have often been on days with completely unexceptional weather. A couple of days last week possibly did justify it, but that's the minority.

Nothing like this has happened in previous years. It coincides with many periods of poor PPM and missed targets since the spring.
 

gtr driver

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Checking is one thing, that's the easy part, but you still need to ask them when they arrive. Of course not every location has a PM either, so you're relying on the crew actually contacting / being contactable, before knowing what you can do.
Which is what I indicated.

I think what Tony6499 is getting at, which is certainly what I was always wonder about, is that if checking the diagram reveals that a driver would break the rules by continuing rather than taking a PNB, surely it should be assumed that the driver CANNOT continue, as the company can't put themselves in this position, and therefore a contingency needs to be ready to go? If the driver has already had an 'unofficial' break that satisfies the rules ie a long gap between trains, then fair enough to check. But I've been 75 minutes late for a PNB due to a major power failure before, and this wiped out my only break on a tight diagram, and control must have realised that I couldn't continue without a break as it puts me at risk if I have some sort of incident.
 

tony6499

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I think what Tony6499 is getting at, which is certainly what I was always wonder about, is that if checking the diagram reveals that a driver would break the rules by continuing rather than taking a PNB, surely it should be assumed that the driver CANNOT continue, as the company can't put themselves in this position, and therefore a contingency needs to be ready to go? If the driver has already had an 'unofficial' break that satisfies the rules ie a long gap between trains, then fair enough to check. But I've been 75 minutes late for a PNB due to a major power failure before, and this wiped out my only break on a tight diagram, and control must have realised that I couldn't continue without a break as it puts me at risk if I have some sort of incident.

Exactly, Control look at 1A99 Vic to Btn running 30mins late and see the driver is PNB at Brighton and look to see what he does next and make a contingency plan as needed, that some don't leads to problems at short notice when the driver is then not available or late for his working after his PNB
 

Bishopstone

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Interesting, I guess because it did not make any difference?

If the trains I use are representative, there was no improvement in performance last week.

My penultimate train was a Thameslink to Brighton, where I was sat directly behind the driving cab. The platform staff at Haywards Heath took a while to give the driver the nod - maybe for good reason - which he did not appreciate:

'Get a flipping* move on! This flipping* job always runs flipping* late!'

* He used another word

If he'd opened the door to the passenger compartment, I would have told him I shared his sentiments.
 

sarahj

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If the trains I use are representative, there was no improvement in performance last week.

My penultimate train was a Thameslink to Brighton, where I was sat directly behind the driving cab. The platform staff at Haywards Heath took a while to give the driver the nod - maybe for good reason - which he did not appreciate:

'Get a flipping* move on! This flipping* job always runs flipping* late!'

* He used another word

If he'd opened the door to the passenger compartment, I would have told him I shared his sentiments.

Last week in the last few days we were hit by:

Thur. Body on the line between Three Bridges and Horsham
Fri. TL lost it's shoes near Three Bridges
Then OHLE issues near St panckaes
Then an 'incident at East Croydon, which involved the police at around 16.00 and trains stopped trashed the first part of the evening rush hour. I was working arun valley trains and a Sou came in almost 40 mins late and terminated Cch after running fast and not splitting HRH to BAA, then my PMS came in almost 30 mins down. We did split (rear stopper portion was packed) and ended up terminating at Fratton, but made it almost right time back to Brighton.
and then 'signalling' issues near Wiveslfield.

Some very miffed off folks around, and not helped by the lack of info, esp as we are right in the middle of a comms change for front line staff. (I've not had a work phone for over 4 months now, only my own i-phone and a free app!!) Our Blackberrys are going and being replaced with some android phone, but the swap is going a lot slower than some think and they turned off the Blackberry system on thur thinking we all had our new phones.:oops:
 
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