Amsterdam Eurostar

[tasky]

Of course. Interestingly, just about half of the nearly 6m UK - Paris / Brussels air passengers* travel to/from Heathrow, Gatwick and Luton. (The numbers from City and Stansted are negligible). In addition there’s about 9 million on Eurostar. Taken together, that means that only 20% of all the UK - Paris / Brussels air/rail market does not use London. So whilst there are large areas of the country where it doesn’t make sense to use Eurostar, in terms of numbers of people in the market it is a relatively small proportion.

Back on the subject of Amsterdam, it is a similar picture. 46% of UK - Amsterdam air passengers travel via a London airport.

* some of this will be interlining at Heathrow or CDG and therefore not a true alternative to Eurostar.

Source: CAA route analysis 2017

I'll be travelling from Brussels to Nottingham soon and will be getting the Eurostar instead of flying to East Midlands Airport just because it's easiest. That's a slightly special case though as it's on the Midland Mainline and so a very easy change from St Pancras. But total travel time isn't too different, and getting to Brussels airport is quite expensive these days thanks to the Diablo surcharge (it's actually cheaper to get a train to Antwerp airport from Brussels than Brussels airport).

I would expect most people flying to Brussels from London would probably be changing planes onto somewhere else. Brussels airport has some aspirations to be a hub - though slap-bang in the middle of Schipol, Frankfurt, and Paris CDG it is in a crowded field.

 

[radamfi]

getting to Brussels airport is quite expensive these days thanks to the Diablo surcharge

There are cheaper ways to get to the airport. The De Lijn bus from Noord/Nord, the STIB-MIVB "airport line"

https://www.stib-mivb.be/article.ht...-3410-f08c-e0c5cfea3859&l=en#contentBodyList0

or for extreme saving, get the tram to Eurocontrol (regular Brussels fares apply), and get the free hotel shuttle from the nearby Ibis.

 

[Bald Rick]

I would expect most people flying to Brussels from London would probably be changing planes onto somewhere else. Brussels airport has some aspirations to be a hub - though slap-bang in the middle of Schipol, Frankfurt, and Paris CDG it is in a crowded field.

It’s likely that many Brussels to London air passengers - almost all of whom are routed via Heathrow - will be interlining at Heathrow. Particularly for North America: Brussels airport has direct flights to 9 North America destinations; Heathrow has 36.

 

[najaB]

Brussels airport has direct flights to 9 North America destinations; Heathrow has 36.

I'm surprised it's only 36. But I guess leisure destinations are served largely from Gatwick.

Edit: Actually, I tried to guess them and only got 28.

 

[StephenHunter]

I've done Berlin to Amsterdam twice and Amsterdam to Hamburg once and it's not that bad. I take a few beers, some food and a book and the time actually passes by quite quickly. You can actually have a proper kip too without doing your neck or back any damage because the seats in standard class are very comfortable and you get a lot more leg room than on trains in the UK.

And the stop at Bad Bentheim is for 15 minutes and breaks up the journey a bit. I got off to stretch my legs and watch them change locos. And you can walk up to the buffet car and sit there for a bit. They make freshly prepared salads and I once saw them cooking sausages for someone. None of the microwaved rubbish we get on trains in the UK.

I've only done the Cologne route before; I'm planning to go to Rotterdam for the Jazz Night Express.

 

[Bungle965]

I've only done the Cologne route before; I'm planning to go to Rotterdam for the Jazz Night Express.

Ah that Jazz Night Express I'm also looking at doing!
Sam

 

[33Hz]

When I was looking at a future trip on Friday I found by accident that a new 17:47 Eurostar from Amsterdam back to Brussels came up as an option. I checked the DB timetable site and it was also present there.




Searching again today, it has gone - also on DB.




Mistake or did they let the cat out of the bag on something? A later departure than the 17:15 Thalys would be much better for business travellers. The phantom train would still have connected with the (now later) last train out of Brussels.




Edit seems like the 17:47 departure comes back again if you put a date in after June 23rd and the 16:47 goes away. This timing makes much more sense.

 

[tasky]

There are cheaper ways to get to the airport. The De Lijn bus from Noord/Nord, the STIB-MIVB "airport line"

https://www.stib-mivb.be/article.ht...-3410-f08c-e0c5cfea3859&l=en#contentBodyList0

or for extreme saving, get the tram to Eurocontrol (regular Brussels fares apply), and get the free hotel shuttle from the nearby Ibis.

Thank you

 

[nlogax]

Finally got around to booking myself on the Amsterdam service once my current round of work travel finishes in the spring. Very much looking forward to it.

 

[LeeLivery]

It's been a year since the launch already. Eurostar has welcomed 250,000 Amsterdam passengers - rather impressive for two trains a day and the fact it's not direct from Amsterdam. Hoping the border issue is sorted on time and not delayed (an invisible technological border would be great, you could call the arrangement... Schengen ). Seriously though, it'd be nice to have a few Antwerp calls, at least Amsterdam bound to avoid border issues.

Hopefully this success is a good omen for Bordeaux and then Cologne

 

[Adsy125]

It's been a year since the launch already. Eurostar has welcomed 250,000 Amsterdam passengers - rather impressive for two trains a day and the fact it's not direct from Amsterdam. Hoping the border issue is sorted on time and not delayed (an invisible technological border would be great, you could call the arrangement... Schengen ). Seriously though, it'd be nice to have a few Antwerp calls, at least Amsterdam bound to avoid border issues.

Hopefully this success is a good omen for Bordeaux and then Cologne

Not sure it is, assuming trains are 6 days a week (not sure) and 902 seats per train that gives a 45% load factor.

 

[Ianno87]

Not sure it is, assuming trains are 6 days a week (not sure) and 902 seats per train that gives a 45% load factor.

I'd say a respectable load factor, given the trains also take Brussels passengers too. Equivalent to, what, 3 aircraft or so per train?

 

[AlexNL]

Not sure it is, assuming trains are 6 days a week (not sure) and 902 seats per train that gives a 45% load factor.

From nothing to an average load of 45% in just a year is definitely promising. Don't forget that a 3rd daily train will start in June.

 

[ainsworth74]

And all while you have to change trains on the return leg!

 

[LeeLivery]

Must remember Brussels pax, including ones changing for other destinations. The last London to Edinburgh train I was on was less full than 45% beyond Newcastle.

I'd say a respectable load factor, given the trains also take Brussels passengers too. Equivalent to, what, 3 aircraft or so per train?

Eurostar says >1,000 A320 loads of people over the year.

Eurostar, the high-speed passenger rail service linking the UK with mainland Europe, is celebrating its first year of direct services from London to the Netherlands. Since launching in April 2018, over quarter of a million people have travelled from London to Amsterdam, the equivalent of more than 1,000 plane loads.1

With a Eurostar journey from between the capital cities resulting in 80% less carbon per passenger than a flight, over 13,000 tonnes of CO2 emissions have been saved to date by passengers choosing high-speed rail over plane2. This is the equivalent to the amount of CO2 that would be emitted from 1,000 average houses in a year, or to taking 2,549 cars off the road for a year3.

Eurostar will introduce a third daily service from 11th June 2019, in direct response to consumer demand. This will increase capacity on the route to the equivalent of 12 flights per day4, further boosting carbon savings.

Since the new service began, Eurostar travellers have also embraced many of the Dutch specialities served on board, enjoying over 10,000 apple turnovers, nearly 3,000 portions of Gouda cheese, over 5,600 locally produced chocolates, and over 2,000 Stroopwafel.

The high-speed rail service has transformed the connection between London and the Netherlands, taking passengers from the heart of London to the centre of Rotterdam in just 3h01, and Amsterdam in 3h41 with highly competitive fares from £35 one way.

Mike Cooper, Chief Executive, Eurostar, said: “Our new service linking London with the Netherlands has got off to a great start, with sales beyond our expectations. We look forward to offering both business and leisure travellers more choice and flexibility with a higher frequency of services coming this year.”

https://mediacentre.eurostar.com/mc_view?language=uk-en&article_Id=ka30N000000PaSkQAK

 

[BigCj34]

It's been a year since the launch already. Eurostar has welcomed 250,000 Amsterdam passengers - rather impressive for two trains a day and the fact it's not direct from Amsterdam. Hoping the border issue is sorted on time and not delayed (an invisible technological border would be great, you could call the arrangement... Schengen ). Seriously though, it'd be nice to have a few Antwerp calls, at least Amsterdam bound to avoid border issues.

Hopefully this success is a good omen for Bordeaux and then Cologne

Can imagine it going to Frankfurt for business, 5 hours isn't an unreasonable amount of time even if flying would be 2 hours quicker door to door. Berlin would be too far for most though.

A Frankfurt London service would need some secured intra Schengen carriages though as there'll be undoubtedly quite a few patrons who won't be going to London, assuming border controls are built.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd say a respectable load factor, given the trains also take Brussels passengers too. Equivalent to, what, 3 aircraft or so per train?

Yep about 3. Most London - Amsterdam flights are A320s or A319s, with c180/150 seats respectively. Although KLM throw in the odd Fokker for fun.

The London to Amsterdam air market was 4.8m passengers last year, so Eurostar seem to have captured about 5%. Plenty to go at. I reckon that with 3 return trips a day, and without the Lille shuffle, that would at least double. London-Glasgow has around three times as many rail passengers and half the air passengers for a longer journey (time), so the potential is there with a much more frequent service.

I’d say that if Eurostar could extend all their Brussels services to Amsterdam (effectively 8tpd), they’d get well over 1.5m passengers pa, in addition to the Brussels traffic. That would be worth at least £150m pa, for relatively little cost, and as a decent by product release at least a dozen slots at Heathrow and probably 6-8 at Gatwick.

 

[FQTV]

Yep about 3. Most London - Amsterdam flights are A320s or A319s, with c180/150 seats respectively. Although KLM throw in the odd Fokker for fun.

The London to Amsterdam air market was 4.8m passengers last year, so Eurostar seem to have captured about 5%. Plenty to go at. I reckon that with 3 return trips a day, and without the Lille shuffle, that would at least double. London-Glasgow has around three times as many rail passengers and half the air passengers for a longer journey (time), so the potential is there with a much more frequent service.

I’d say that if Eurostar could extend all their Brussels services to Amsterdam (effectively 8tpd), they’d get well over 1.5m passengers pa, in addition to the Brussels traffic. That would be worth at least £150m pa, for relatively little cost, and as a decent by product release at least a dozen slots at Heathrow and probably 6-8 at Gatwick.

It’s very little to go at and it won’t make a blind bit of difference at Heathrow.

More than 80% of the KLM and British Airways traffic between Amsterdam and London is long haul connecting and Eurostar has no effect on that.

Amsterdam, and Paris, and other close destinations are classic slot-sitters at Heathrow, too. Those flights are not there to make money; they’re there to stop others doing so. Air France shuffling turboprops in between A380 departures are no greater proof of that.

Origin and destination (O&D) traffic from the subordinate stations of Gatwick etc., is where any modal abstraction is coming from.

The Eurostar service, at least outbound, is superb, and it’s probably good enough to be growing total traffic on its own merits, but don’t for a second think that BA or KLM give two or even one hoot about it when it comes to feed to their critical long haul operations.

 

[Bald Rick]

It’s very little to go at and it won’t make a blind bit of difference at Heathrow.

More than 80% of the KLM and British Airways traffic between Amsterdam and London is long haul connecting and Eurostar has no effect on that.

Amsterdam, and Paris, and other close destinations are classic slot-sitters at Heathrow, too. Those flights are not there to make money; they’re there to stop others doing so. Air France shuffling turboprops in between A380 departures are no greater proof of that.

Origin and destination (O&D) traffic from the subordinate stations of Gatwick etc., is where any modal abstraction is coming from.

The Eurostar service, at least outbound, is superb, and it’s probably good enough to be growing total traffic on its own merits, but don’t for a second think that BA or KLM give two or even one hoot about it when it comes to feed to their critical long haul operations.

I don’t doubt your numbers for transfer passengers at Heathrow. But then that’s what BA thought about Manchester when they ran an hourly shuttle, and now they are down to 6 a day...

 

[FQTV]

I don’t doubt your numbers for transfer passengers at Heathrow. But then that’s what BA thought about Manchester when they ran an hourly shuttle, and now they are down to 6 a day...

British Midland and British Airways were together chronically over-capacity on that route, with the former utterly clueless at leveraging long haul (and barely capable short haul) connectivity.

The latter took over the former, balanced supply to demand far more accurately, deployed airframes more profitably and used every slot at Heathrow while the remediation slots are still being faffed about with (now) by flybe going to Newquay and Douglas.

Not with A380s or even 777-300s at a slot-congested field, either.

And not to forget that former Manchester to Heathrow frequencies were latterly partly a function of displaced demand generated by the contemporaneous alternative of Virgin’s appallingly filthy no-frills service, and then WCML upgrade disruption.

None of which is to take away from the fact that the Eurostar service to Amsterdam is a superb one and, apparently, a successful one.

Never underestimate the power of rail to create its own market.

But, for the airlines, it’s comparable to DFDS and nothing more.

 

[tasky]

More than 80% of the KLM and British Airways traffic between Amsterdam and London is long haul connecting and Eurostar has no effect on that.

Unlikely to happen, but in principle the Eurostar could add Schiphol airport as an air-rail station, it's on the line to Amsterdam. A lot of airlines sell longhaul flights to people in e.g. Brussels from Paris CDG or Frankfurt Airport which include a Thalys or ICE ticket to get there in the price

The border controls issue and the fact London is already a massive air hub probably means it wouldn't happen, though.

 

[StephenHunter]

Can imagine it going to Frankfurt for business, 5 hours isn't an unreasonable amount of time even if flying would be 2 hours quicker door to door. Berlin would be too far for most though.

A Frankfurt London service would need some secured intra Schengen carriages though as there'll be undoubtedly quite a few patrons who won't be going to London, assuming border controls are built.

In the old days, you'd have had a couple of coaches for Berlin that you could attach on to another train at Frankfurt. In any event, there's issues regarding storing the trains securely in Germany.

 

[najaB]

In the old days, you'd have had a couple of coaches for Berlin that you could attach on to another train at Frankfurt. In any event, there's issues regarding storing the trains securely in Germany.

in the old days you didn't have trains doing 300 km/h either. So yeah, progress.

 

[StephenHunter]

Loco-haulage and through coaches are still very common when you get east of the old Iron Curtain; EuroCity, EuroNight and NightJet services have plenty of portions.

 

[ainsworth74]

Loco-haulage and through coaches are still very common when you get east of the old Iron Curtain; EuroCity, EuroNight and NightJet services have plenty of portions.

How many of them can do 300km/h in the way that Eurostar can?

 

[BigCj34]

In the old days, you'd have had a couple of coaches for Berlin that you could attach on to another train at Frankfurt. In any event, there's issues regarding storing the trains securely in Germany.

A train Berlin bound from London would not be going via Frankfurt . Even if the Cologne - Berlin line is upgraded to deliver 4 hour journey times it would still take almost 8 hours, a bit far for most unless going overnight. However if ski trains go overnight without dedicated sleeping accommodation it would be interesting to know if any other routes could work.

 

[StephenHunter]

How many of them can do 300km/h in the way that Eurostar can?

No, but they don't need to.

 

[ainsworth74]

No, but they don't need to.

They would if you wanted to convey through carriages from London to Berlin.

 

[tasky]

A train Berlin bound from London would not be going via Frankfurt . Even if the Cologne - Berlin line is upgraded to deliver 4 hour journey times it would still take almost 8 hours, a bit far for most unless going overnight. However if ski trains go overnight without dedicated sleeping accommodation it would be interesting to know if any other routes could work.

Amsterdam-Berlin is currently six and a half hours and has a well-used direct IC trains with over a dozen departures a day. I suppose the problem is because the UK isn't in Schengen it's quite expensive to trial the route, you have build border infrastructure somewhere in Berlin, so you have to be sure it will be a success. And intermediate stops aren't as useful. I suspect it will never happen.

Barcelona is one possible future destination, if the French ever get around to finishing that high speed line from Montpellier to Perpignan, and/or the LGV Nord shortcut via Amiens (LGV Picardie). Paris would be three and a half hours from Barcelona, so you'd be looking at about five and a half hours London–Barcelona.

Also possibly London to Turin and Milan, when the Turin-Lyon high speed railway is finished - there's already a 7h20 TGV from Paris to Milan, that will reduce to 4 hours when that line is finished (unlike the connections with Spain construction is actually underway on this one). The London-Milan journey would become around 6. Again though, you have the problem of border controls at stations and Britain making a huge fuss as usual.

Bear in mind everyone seems to think London-Frankfurt will happen eventually, and that's probably going to be about five hours, realistically. And good luck trying to convince tourists to go to Frankfurt...

 

[StephenHunter]

Frankfurt (or 'Mainhattan' due to it having more skyscrapers than any other German city by some margin) is more the place one goes for business than tourism.

As for border checks, you only need to do the Schengen checks going in with the French controls at St Pancras; going out is logistically harder. Historically, the NL/West German checks were done on the train between Hengelo and Osnabruck.

In any event, the problem is less border checks and more checking bags, not to mention the train, before entering the Tunnel.