Amsterdam Eurostar

[Struner]

I'd guess that your experience is somewhat out of date. In London €* arrives at St Pancras. From there and Kings Cross which is adjacent its possible to get direct trains to about half of mainland UK (Example Destinations Brighton, Gatwick Airport, Cambridge, York, Newcastle, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Inverness, Luton Airport, Leicester, Derby, Sheffield, Leeds). Euston station which serves Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool and Glasgow and the Irish ferries is about 10 minutes walk or a short cab ride away.
The infrastructure and services are all in place and London is a much better connected city than Paris.
[…]

Travelators would be the answer then - for both!

 

[DavidGrain]

Marylebone. Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross, my favourite London bus route is the 205. Pity it no longer serves the forecourt of Marylebone Station. I have beaten travellors who have been on the same trains as I have and have taken taxis by using that bus service.

 

[AlexNL]

The issue is that whilst the low cost airlines operate the rail market for through London travel by train is diverse and minimal which prevents any extensive through ticketing and marketing.

Eurostar already offer through-ticketing to/from a number of destinations within GB, but only if you buy through the GB version of their website. Oddly enough they don't offer tickets to/from all British stations, only a limited selection.

The Eurostar website only shows you the best connecting train, which may not be the cheapest one available. There's no option to change the timings of the UK leg of a Eurostar journey. Therefor you're probably better off booking via Rail Europe (formerly Loco2) or buying two separate tickets. For extra protections, buy one to/from "London International CIV" if you can (e.g. via RailEasy).

 

[paul1609]

Eurostar already offer through-ticketing to/from a number of destinations within GB, but only if you buy through the GB version of their website. Oddly enough they don't offer tickets to/from all British stations, only a limited selection.

The Eurostar website only shows you the best connecting train, which may not be the cheapest one available. There's no option to change the timings of the UK leg of a Eurostar journey. Therefor you're probably better off booking via Rail Europe (formerly Loco2) or buying two separate tickets. For extra protections, buy one to/from "London International CIV" if you can (e.g. via RailEasy).

The reason for this is that there is very little demand for the service. Eurostar and various private companies have tried to provide a better service but could not drive up demand. Leeds which has a very easy connection in London for instance and has through tickets barely manages 100 sales a year....

 

[Struner]

The reason for this is that there is very little demand for the service. Eurostar and various private companies have tried to provide a better service but could not drive up demand. Leeds which has a very easy connection in London for instance and has through tickets barely manages 100 sales a year....

Not even to Paris?

 

[duesselmartin]

If I could book Duisburg to Oxford one one ticket it alone would be 4 annual return journey per annum.

 

[30907]

The reason for this is that there is very little demand for the service. Eurostar and various private companies have tried to provide a better service but could not drive up demand. Leeds which has a very easy connection in London for instance and has through tickets barely manages 100 sales a year....

I don't know how this is calculated:
as it happens, my wife and I between us have made 11 single journeys on that route, of which:
4 were on Interrail
1 involved an overnight in London, so the UK leg was a normal ticket and the other was DB.
2 were through a tour provider
4 were booked along with the ES and SNCF tickets.
All of them were from a local station ES do not cater for.
So at most 4 will have appeared in the sales figures.

 

[paul1609]

If I could book Duisburg to Oxford one one ticket it alone would be 4 annual return journey per annum.

Presumably if there was sufficient demand to London your state operator would have taken forward its plans to run direct services but after running tests of the trains and telling the public for some years they were imminent pulled out as they couldn't make an economic case?

 

[johnnychips]

I find the figure of only 100 through tickets from Leeds onto Eurostar surprisingly low. Three acquaintances and I made 14 return journeys from Doncaster to Brussels last year, and Donny is rather smaller than Leeds. Where do these numbers come from?

 

[paul1609]

I find the figure of only 100 through tickets from Leeds onto Eurostar surprisingly low. Three acquaintances and I made 14 return journeys from Doncaster to Brussels last year, and Donny is rather smaller than Leeds. Where do these numbers come from?

From Eurostar, did you make your journeys on through tickets?

 

[AlbertBeale]

Marylebone. Euston, St Pancras, Kings Cross, my favourite London bus route is the 205. Pity it no longer serves the forecourt of Marylebone Station. I have beaten travellors who have been on the same trains as I have and have taken taxis by using that bus service.

The 205 was originally introduced in lieu of an "inter-station" bus that connected terminals for people who'd have difficulty with luggage etc on the tubes. (It was to link the stations you mention, plus Paddington, Liverpool St, Old Street, Whitechapel.) It originally was supposed to go directly via all the stations both east- and west-bound (eg via Euston bus station in both directions), as well as looping round Kings Cross westbound so it stopped alongside both KX and St P [as well as outside both their frontages eastbound], and so on. I can't remember if all of these connections were instituted initially; but most were, only for many to be later abandoned (eg Marylebone, KX & StP westbound). It's a real shame it doesn't still provide all those close interchanges, even though some longer (non-station-to-station) journeys would be slowed down - a lot of people would find it very useful.

 

[johnnychips]

From Eurostar, did you make your journeys on through tickets?

Yes I did.

 

[duesselmartin]

Presumably if there was sufficient demand to London your state operator would have taken forward its plans to run direct services but after running tests of the trains and telling the public for some years they were imminent pulled out as they couldn't make an economic case?

There is enough demand for my state operator to offer London tickets ad long ad Eurostar lets it.
My state operator did sell tickets for Britain until the UK side pulled the plug.

 

[S-Car-Go]

NS do not own any shares in Thalys, either. DB held 10% of shares in Thalys but sold those to SNCF a few years ago.

My bad, sorry je hebt gelijk! Was confused since you have NS staff (& SNCF & SNCB) working on Thalys trains. I guess that's just to make crewing easier?

 

[duesselmartin]

I believe Keolis drivers take over in Germany.

 

[tasky]

Presumably if there was sufficient demand to London your state operator would have taken forward its plans to run direct services but after running tests of the trains and telling the public for some years they were imminent pulled out as they couldn't make an economic case?

Wasn't the problem with the DB ICE to London service mostly a lack of compatible rolling stock? The dual voltage stock is very unreliable and additional trains were needed to improve the reliability of existing services. There was also stuff like tunnel safety certification.

Eurostar launching the Amsterdam service presumably undermined some of the business case as the original plan was to split the ICE in Brussels with half going to Amsterdam and half to Frankfurt.

 

[paul1609]

There is enough demand for my state operator to offer London tickets ad long ad Eurostar lets it.
My state operator did sell tickets for Britain until the UK side pulled the plug.

I thought the reason DB can no longer sell through tickets was that their booking system wasn't compatible with Eurostars. Eurostar's Majority Shareholder is SNCF not a UK company. There is nothing stopping DB selling UK internal tickets more of less anyone can.

 

[markymark2000]

The reason for this is that there is very little demand for the service. Eurostar and various private companies have tried to provide a better service but could not drive up demand. Leeds which has a very easy connection in London for instance and has through tickets barely manages 100 sales a year....

I think that while specific end to end (UK to Eurostar) ticket sales may be low, when you work out the catchment area and the amount of people who could change at Leeds onto a Eurostar service, the numbers would likely be a heck of a lot higher. Anyone north of around Sheffield would find it quicker going to Leeds and changing onto Eurostar rather than going to London.

Another thing which I think could work would be for Eurostar to use a Leeds (or other north UK destination) as a feeder service. Leeds to Paris calling at Ashford International and then 20 mins later, call an Amsterdam service there (allowing passengers to remain on the platform as it's secure) this then means Paris and Amsterdam are reachable via Eurostar from Leeds. This again would VASTLY increase the potential usage of any service.

 

[paul1609]

I think that while specific end to end (UK to Eurostar) ticket sales may be low, when you work out the catchment area and the amount of people who could change at Leeds onto a Eurostar service, the numbers would likely be a heck of a lot higher. Anyone north of around Sheffield would find it quicker going to Leeds and changing onto Eurostar rather than going to London.

Another thing which I think could work would be for Eurostar to use a Leeds (or other north UK destination) as a feeder service. Leeds to Paris calling at Ashford International and then 20 mins later, call an Amsterdam service there (allowing passengers to remain on the platform as it's secure) this then means Paris and Amsterdam are reachable via Eurostar from Leeds. This again would VASTLY increase the potential usage of any service.

As I understand it Leeds Bradford Airport can only support one direct flight to Paris per day about 130 seats in each direction with a journey time of 2 1/2 hours.
A class 374 has 902 seats journey time would be around 5 hours. You'd need a new fleet of trains as the 374 isn't built to British Loading Gauge and isn't fitted with British Signalling systems. It would need some sort of variable step to deal with the different platform heights at the British Platforms.
You'd also need shorter trains to fit the British Platforms. Any train from the ECML would need to reverse in St Pancras anyway.
The Amsterdam service would take around 6 to 7 hours.
Sounds like a great business case to me (not).

 

[tasky]

As I understand it Leeds Bradford Airport can only support one direct flight to Paris per day about 130 seats in each direction with a journey time of 2 1/2 hours.
A class 374 has 902 seats journey time would be around 5 hours. You'd need a new fleet of trains as the 374 isn't built to British Loading Gauge and isn't fitted with British Signalling systems. It would need some sort of variable step to deal with the different platform heights at the British Platforms.
You'd also need shorter trains to fit the British Platforms. Any train from the ECML would need to reverse in St Pancras anyway.
The Amsterdam service would take around 6 to 7 hours.
Sounds like a great business case to me (not).

Post-HS2 you'd be looking at around 3h15m Manchester to Paris and 3h45m Leeds to Paris which is rather better, particularly for Manchester which has quite a few flights a day to Paris

 

[markymark2000]

As I understand it Leeds Bradford Airport can only support one direct flight to Paris per day about 130 seats in each direction with a journey time of 2 1/2 hours.
A class 374 has 902 seats journey time would be around 5 hours. You'd need a new fleet of trains as the 374 isn't built to British Loading Gauge and isn't fitted with British Signalling systems. It would need some sort of variable step to deal with the different platform heights at the British Platforms.
You'd also need shorter trains to fit the British Platforms. Any train from the ECML would need to reverse in St Pancras anyway.
The Amsterdam service would take around 6 to 7 hours.
Sounds like a great business case to me (not).

Manchester would be better passenger wise but I thought Leeds was easier to get to based on the current infrastructure (clearly not, my in head rail map must need amending)

How big are the 374s exactly for our loading gauge? Are they bigger than the old 373s as they ran up and down the ECML didn't they on trial runs and they were fine. Anywhere where the Eurostar trains stopped would have to have dedicated platforms due to the passport checks and security stuff therefore platforms would be amended accordingly.

With HS2, it's even worth considering Birmingham (As that is the only section which seems to be in favour of being completed). It saves people going down into London making it a more viable option for people considering journeys.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Manchester would be better passenger wise but I thought Leeds was easier to get to based on the current infrastructure (clearly not, my in head rail map must need amending)

How big are the 374s exactly for our loading gauge? Are they bigger than the old 373s as they ran up and down the ECML didn't they on trial runs and they were fine. Anywhere where the Eurostar trains stopped would have to have dedicated platforms due to the passport checks and security stuff therefore platforms would be amended accordingly.

With HS2, it's even worth considering Birmingham (As that is the only section which seems to be in favour of being completed). It saves people going down into London making it a more viable option for people considering journeys.

The answer to journey times for north(-ish) Britain to Paris/Brussels, and/or London to further into Europe, would surely be sleepers. I realise that extra destinations bring extra problems with passport checks/barriers etc. But other European railways have largely managed with on-train passport checks for generations (at least, since passports as we know them today became "a thing" in the early 20th century) - so with a bit of goodwill, some imagination, and a combination of some sort of platform security checks [if desired] plus on-board passport controls [after all, there's be plenty of time...], then surely sleepers could take over from a lot of air travel when the latter is wound down. (I always thought the spacious disused Eurostar infrastructure at Waterloo could be ideal for overnight trains and the related servicing systems, even after the day trains moved to St P, since the extra time using the earlier route through south London to pick up the fast line wouldn't matter so much on an overnight trip.

 

[island]

UK Border Force blanket refuses to do on-train checks due to their hysterical insistence on scanning in every passport/ID card and checking it against the warnings index, which (I am told) they can only do over a fixed wired connection.

 

[edwin_m]

UK Border Force blanket refuses to do on-train checks due to their hysterical insistence on scanning in every passport/ID card and checking it against the warnings index, which (I am told) they can only do over a fixed wired connection.

Even if that was overcome the baggage security issue would remain, requiring extra equipment and trained people at each boarding station and extra boarding time. There's no way that could be moved onto the train, so doing the immigration checks on board wouldn't avoid the check-in time or many of the special facilities.

 

[JonasB]

Manchester would be better passenger wise but I thought Leeds was easier to get to based on the current infrastructure (clearly not, my in head rail map must need amending)

How big are the 374s exactly for our loading gauge? Are they bigger than the old 373s as they ran up and down the ECML didn't they on trial runs and they were fine. Anywhere where the Eurostar trains stopped would have to have dedicated platforms due to the passport checks and security stuff therefore platforms would be amended accordingly.

The E320s/374s are built for the normal European loading gauge so it would be hard to use them on other lines. But aren't there still a couple of E300/373 in service?

But 3:15 From Manchester to Paris would be great! Personally I'd love to see Brussels/Paris to Reading, but I guess that will remain a dream…

 

[Ianno87]

Even if that was overcome the baggage security issue would remain, requiring extra equipment and trained people at each boarding station and extra boarding time. There's no way that could be moved onto the train, so doing the immigration checks on board wouldn't avoid the check-in time or many of the special facilities.

I've never really understood why baggage security (and the need to scan it) is an issue unique to Eurostar. What is fundamentally different to say a domestic French TGV, or a Pendolino to Manchester?

 

[edwin_m]

I've never really understood why baggage security (and the need to scan it) is an issue unique to Eurostar. What is fundamentally different to say a domestic French TGV, or a Pendolino to Manchester?

Or trains that use the long tunnels under the Alps? There's not really any logic to it at all - anyone who wants to bring a bomb onto a train will always be able to find an easier target such as a much more crowded underground Metro service.

However some other services have had baggage screening, including high speed in Spain and some Thalys services. I haven't used them but I believe the screening is less thorough than Eurostar and may not happen 100% of the time.

 

[jfollows]

I am lucky that I live within walking distance of Wilmslow station, however I recall once having to fly to Paris from Manchester Airport (which is close to my home also, of course) and realising that as I arrived in Gare du Nord on the RER that I could have been on the Eurostar which was arriving at the same time if I had left home at the same time.

Now, I admit that I probably went to the airport too early, and sat around waiting for too long for the flight to leave, but this was primarily in response to the dreadful warnings from the airport and airline about arriving early enough.

Bottom line, sadly, was that I was travelling for work and it was much cheaper to fly. On another occasion I chose to pay the excess for using the train.

I've used Eurostar often, but it's just too expensive when compared with the cost of flying, especially once you don't start from London. The reason I use Eurostar is that I'm prepared to pay the extra hundreds of pounds required for the pleasure of travelling by train.

 

[edwin_m]

The E320s/374s are built for the normal European loading gauge so it would be hard to use them on other lines. But aren't there still a couple of E300/373 in service?

There are still quite a few 373 in service, but the main fleet was never cleared north of London due to being too long and having electrical equipment that interfered with the signaling. I'm not sure if any of the north of London sub-fleet are still around.

The problem with going beyond London is that low-cost airlines offer a flight time of an hour or so, usually at competitive prices, from regional airports to the main Continental cities. Even with those advantages most routes can only drum up a couple of 737s worth of passengers per day maximum, which is much less than the capacity of single Eurostar. To run a viable train instead would require all those people and more to want to travel at the same time of day and to accept a journey of four or five hours, several hours longer than by plane even taking account of the time needed to get to and from the airport and for check-in and security.

Trains normally get round this problem by making intermediate stops to attract extra passengers while only extending the journey time by a few minutes. Eurostar doesn't need to do this much, because it links three major capital cities which are close enough together for rail to be competitive on journey time, but I can think of no other rail service that provides international travel but not domestic journeys in the countries it passes through. Were it not for border controls and security it would be possible to imagine say a Birmingham-MK-Stratford-Ebbsfleet-Ashford-Calais-Lille-Paris every few hours, which by pickup and set down at every stop might just carry enough passenger to be viable. But nobody wants to have the hassle of showing documents and having baggage scanned for a domestic journey, and the extra time to do so would probably make it just as quick to take a conventional train and change en route.

Perhaps, though, the quarantining of passengers in different parts of the train on Amsterdam-Brussels provides a possible solution to this? However it would require a future where a HS2-HS1 link was built and short-haul flying became much less cheap and easy.

 

[30907]

As I understand it Leeds Bradford Airport can only support one direct flight to Paris per day about 130 seats in each direction with a journey time of 2 1/2 hours.

Now down to 4 flights a week, while our daily Duesseldorf flight has gone altogether, and the twice weekly Berlin lasted a couple of seasons only.
Apart from Amsterdam, LBA has no international business destinations, and even MAN struggles - Ryanair haven't been able to make Nuremberg or Stuttgart pay...