Amsterdam Eurostar

[TheSeeker]

Just had a call from a cousin who was supposed to be flying Schiphol-Gatwick but easyJet have cancelled because of snow. He's just boarding the Thalys and will change for a Eurostar in Brussels.

A shame the new direct service wasn't running already.

 

[GingerSte]

Which platform will the Amsterdam-bound Eurostars stop at in Brussels-Midi? Currently Eurostars use platforms 1 & 2 but both of these platforms are terminal.

Platform 3 is the first through running platform. I was at Brussels-Midi yesterday and I noticed building work on island platform 3&4 which appeared to be to allow the platform to allow platform 3 or 4 to be isolated from each other and/or from other entries and exits. Does anyone know - is this work part of plans to add/increase security checks for Thalys/ICE trains through Brussels-Midi or is it related to Eurostar through trains, so they can start stopping on platform 3/4?

I've attached a photo I took of the building work on this platform...

I forgot to ask before, did this fenceline have gates every so often (ie it could allow the platform to be opened up or closed off), or was it all this (rather permanent looking) fence? I'm trying to get an idea for if E* are intending to use the back of platform 2 as their "platform 3".

Just had a call from a cousin who was supposed to be flying Schiphol-Gatwick but easyJet have cancelled because of snow. He's just boarding the Thalys and will change for a Eurostar in Brussels.

A shame the new direct service wasn't running already.

True, but the Eurostar may have also been affected by the current weather. Checking the E* website, there are some speed restrictions, but things still appear to be running.

 

[Groningen]

Because of the snow several cities in Europe have very, very limited arrivals and departures also in Amsterdam.

 

[MarcVD]

I don't think so, there's no need for the security theatre when going in that direction.

I was going to say that too, but in fact it's not true, all HST passengers in Belgium are cheched now, not only in the direction of London.

 

[Gadget88]

I’m heading to Amsterdam next month what’s the chances of snow in January?

 

[itfcfan]

I was going to say that too, but in fact it's not true, all HST passengers in Belgium are cheched now, not only in the direction of London.

That's not my experience when taking the ICE from Brussels to Cologne/Frankfurt. I've heard discussion of security checks in Brussels and recall walking through a temporary passage surrounded by police/army in 2016 (but no "checks"), but recently there have been no restrictions (for the ICE at least).

 

[TheSeeker]

True, but the Eurostar may have also been affected by the current weather. Checking the E* website, there are some speed restrictions, but things still appear to be running.

I contacted him to check if he already had a Eurostar ticket as E* tweeted that all Brussels-London services yesterday were full. Fortunately he had bought his tickets on Saturday afternoon. He was posting pictures along on the way and it was all very "Dr Zhivago".

 

[Groningen]

I’m heading to Amsterdam next month what’s the chances of snow in January?

According to Wikipedia there are on average 6 days with snow in January in Amsterdam. So?!

 

[Gadget88]

Another test today this time in the snow

 

[itfcfan]

With the current Eurostar fleet, what's the highest intensity of service that could be run beyond Brussels?

Currently, the Paris route has a much more intensive service (up to 18 trains per day in each direction) than the Brussels route (up to 9 trains per day in each direction). Demand for travel to/from Paris is far higher than Brussels.

Once some of the Brussels services continue to Amsterdam, providing the service is a commercial success, this may start to even up the capacity required on each route. As I understand it, on Amsterdam/Rotterdam -> Brussels -> London journeys, half of the train will be allocated to Amsterdam/Rotterdam -> London passengers and the other half allocated to Amsterdam/Rotterdam -> Brussels and Brussels -> London passengers. This effectively halves the demand needed to make a viable service to Brussels/Amsterdam compared to operating to either destination alone. If the pricing is right, you'd think that Amsterdam could support at least 4 train in each direction per day from London.

If the Rotterdam/Amsterdam route is a success, Cologne/Frankfurt is the other route that's been mentioned previously as a potential expansion for Eurostar. Clearly needing to fulfil the UK government requirements re: security before boarding is a big barrier to getting this up and running, but would the Eurostar fleet availability allow for running a further 4 trains per day beyond Brussels to Cologne/Frankfurt? Alternatively, if the Rotterdam/Amsterdam route was more successful, could most/all of the current London -> Brussels terminating services run on to Amsterdam?

Essentially, how many of the current London - Brussels services could be run on to a destination a further 2 hours away (i.e. Amsterdam / Cologne) or 3 hours away (Frankfurt)? Could all 9 of the Brussels trains be extended to run beyond Brussels? I doubt there's this much slack in the current fleet availability, but if anyone knows (or has a good way of calculating this) it'd be interesting to hear!

 

[GingerSte]

With the current Eurostar fleet, what's the highest intensity of service that could be run beyond Brussels?

I don't know.

What I do know, is that it will take at least 2 sets to run the currently proposed service to Amsterdam. I see two options:

Option 1

• Set A 08:04 London - Amsterdam and 16:48 Amsterdam - London
• Set B 07:48 Amsterdam - London and 17:04 London - Amsterdam

Option 2

• Set A 08:04 London - Amsterdam and 16:48 Amsterdam - London
• Set B 07:48 Amsterdam - London and then some other services
• Set C Some other services and then 17:04 London - Amsterdam

This is based on the fact that you can do set swaps at the London end, but not the Amsterdam end (unless you have a spare).

In both cases, set A spends about 4 hours in Amsterdam. This is about the journey time from one to the other, so you could perhaps fit a third daily trip in on the same two sets with a bit of tweaking...

• Set A 07:04 London - Amsterdam, 13:00 Amsterdam - London and 17:04 London - Amsterdam
• Set B 06:48 Amsterdam - London, 11:30 London - Amsterdam and 17:18 Amsterdam - London

This gives approximately 1 hour turnaround time at each end, at the cost of an extra 90 minutes on the diagram. I would want to prove that the 2-service model would work first, though, and iron out any kinks.

If you had a spare set in Amsterdam (for resilience purposes), then that extra hour could be taken out by using that. It seems an expensive proposition. though. It would be more likely that any spare sets would be in Brussels, ready to ship to Amsterdam if needed.

If the Rotterdam/Amsterdam route is a success, Cologne/Frankfurt is the other route that's been mentioned previously as a potential expansion for Eurostar. Clearly needing to fulfil the UK government requirements re: security before boarding is a big barrier to getting this up and running, but would the Eurostar fleet availability allow for running a further 4 trains per day beyond Brussels to Cologne/Frankfurt? Alternatively, if the Rotterdam/Amsterdam route was more successful, could most/all of the current London -> Brussels terminating services run on to Amsterdam?

I would personally like to see a few trains a day to Cologne/Frankfurt (I would use it 2 or 3 times per year). Also, now that the new line is open, I think Bordeaux is within that time horizon. For me, it all depends on making the "Amsterdam solution" to the passport/security issue work. Whether it does or not still remains to be seen.

 

[BahrainLad]

I would personally like to see a few trains a day to Cologne/Frankfurt (I would use it 2 or 3 times per year). Also, now that the new line is open, I think Bordeaux is within that time horizon. For me, it all depends on making the "Amsterdam solution" to the passport/security issue work. Whether it does or not still remains to be seen.

The (very limited in number) direct trains from Lille to Bordeaux still take 4h32, mainly because they have to trundle round a congested freight line south of Paris. They are nowhere near as quick as the trains south to Lyon that use the TGV Interconnexion, despite the new line opening.

 

[edwin_m]

I don't know.

What I do know, is that it will take at least 2 sets to run the currently proposed service to Amsterdam. I see two options:

Option 1

• Set A 08:04 London - Amsterdam and 16:48 Amsterdam - London
• Set B 07:48 Amsterdam - London and 17:04 London - Amsterdam

Option 2

• Set A 08:04 London - Amsterdam and 16:48 Amsterdam - London
• Set B 07:48 Amsterdam - London and then some other services
• Set C Some other services and then 17:04 London - Amsterdam

It would have to be option 2 because they wouldn't want the same train out-based in Amsterdam for more than one night. It's probably do-able by using the extra sets that allow the normally two-hourly London-Brussels to go up to hourly at peak times, and are likely to be spare in London or Brussels between the peaks.

 

[GingerSte]

The (very limited in number) direct trains from Lille to Bordeaux still take 4h32, mainly because they have to trundle round a congested freight line south of Paris. They are nowhere near as quick as the trains south to Lyon that use the TGV Interconnexion, despite the new line opening.

I have to admit I don't know the lines around Paris well (at all, really).

A quick look online shows the "Interconnexion Sud" project, which would extend the "Interconnexion Est" and mitigate the issue you talk about. Is this a serious project (by which I mean funded and happening), or a "nice to have"?

PS. I did wonder about the possibility of a service to Lyon and Marseille, but the Lille-Marseille train takes 5 hours. Bearing in mind the approx. 600 mile journey (and current average of 120mph), they would have to lob off an hour or so (getting up to 150mph average) before an E* service would be useful. I presume there's some sections of slow-running that slows this down.

It would have to be option 2 because they wouldn't want the same train out-based in Amsterdam for more than one night.

I hadn't thought of that. Yes, it would be an important consideration for maintenance. It makes me even more surprised that they haven't gone for three services in each direction per day. Maybe that is the plan for later, when the concept has been shown to work.

It's probably do-able by using the extra sets that allow the normally two-hourly London-Brussels to go up to hourly at peak times, and are likely to be spare in London or Brussels between the peaks.

Yes, I imagine there wouldn't too much difference between the current set requirement and that proposed for the new services. Maybe one set.

 

[33Hz]

I was going to say that too, but in fact it's not true, all HST passengers in Belgium are cheched now, not only in the direction of London.

In my experience, that "security" lasted a few weeks. It seemed to consist of pulling over random* people for visual check you had a ticket and the occasional bag search.

*depending on how brown you were.

 

[duesselmartin]

In my experience, that "security" lasted a few weeks. It seemed to consist of pulling over random* people for visual check you had a ticket and the occasional bag search.

*depending on how brown you were.

no checks at all in Brussels Midi on the 29th when I travelled, neither to Paris, Montpellier or my ICE to Cologne.

 

[BahrainLad]

PS. I did wonder about the possibility of a service to Lyon and Marseille, but the Lille-Marseille train takes 5 hours. Bearing in mind the approx. 600 mile journey (and current average of 120mph), they would have to lob off an hour or so (getting up to 150mph average) before an E* service would be useful. I presume there's some sections of slow-running that slows this down.

Lille - Marseilles should all be on an LGV but perhaps there is an extended stop at CDG? 20 minutes is not uncommon. And Lyon Airport as well perhaps.

In any case Eurostar already serve Lyon and Marseilles at certain times of the year.

 

[AlexNL]

In any case Eurostar already serve Lyon and Marseilles at certain times of the year.

More precisely, on these days:

 

[33Hz]

Lille - Marseilles should all be on an LGV but perhaps there is an extended stop at CDG? 20 minutes is not uncommon. And Lyon Airport as well perhaps.

In any case Eurostar already serve Lyon and Marseilles at certain times of the year.

Lyon Part-Dieu is in the middle of town and there is a fair bit of running on slow old lines to get to and from it from the LGV. After several hours of 300 km/h (320 at times if you are on a TGV) it feels excruciating.

 

[GingerSte]

Lyon Part-Dieu is in the middle of town and there is a fair bit of running on slow old lines to get to and from it from the LGV. After several hours of 300 km/h (320 at times if you are on a TGV) it feels excruciating.

To clarify, I don't mean missing out any of those stations. I would hope that time savings could be made by reducing that "fair bit of running on slow old lines" and dwell times at stations (obviously excluding the passport shenanigans at Lille, unless you can use the "Amsterdam solution" here too).

Based on the timetable posted by AlexNL above, I did a bit of spreadsheet jiggery pokery and split the journey into sections. Note that Lille is not mentioned on the timetable, but I got the London-Lille time from other services. Mileages are based on directions from Multimap.

• London - Lille: 01:04 hours, 177 miles, 166mph (266kph)
• Lille - Lyon: 03:41 hours, 430 miles, 117mph (187kph)
• Lyon - Avignon: 01:08 hours, 142 miles, 125mph (200kph)
• Avignon - Marseille: 00:37 hours, 64 miles, 103mph (165kph)

 

[Groningen]

So only 30 minutes to clean the train and turn it around in Marseille. Hope the train has no delay than.

 

[stut]

So only 30 minutes to clean the train and turn it around in Marseille. Hope the train has no delay than.

AIUI, it's not cleaned. Only half the train is occupied in either direction on this service, removing the need to do so.

 

[bunnahabhain]

AIUI, it's not cleaned. Only half the train is occupied in either direction on this service, removing the need to do so.

I'm reasonably confident it runs with all coaches loaded, just not to capacity. I've only ever used it Southbound in Standard Premier but I'd say it gets loaded to about 75% as some seats are bagged over for use as additional luggage space. Also some toilets are locked out of use to keep them available for the return journey.

 

[jnjkerbin]

Eurostar on Twitter saying that they still expect the Amsterdam service to be up and running in time for Easter

 

[BluePenguin]

Just had a call from a cousin who was supposed to be flying Schiphol-Gatwick but easyJet have cancelled because of snow. He's just boarding the Thalys and will change for a Eurostar in Brussels.

A shame the new direct service wasn't running already.

Oh no how very annoying. How much did that cost them? It must have been a fortune last minute

 

[BluePenguin]

I have been wanting to book this service for a very long time. I guess I will have to keep waiting...

 

[gysev]

Today, a test will be carried out at Bruxelles-Midi concerning the safety-procedures on track 3. In the future, this can become tricky because the police wants to close the platform 45 minutes before arrival of a Eurostar. This will cause delays to Thalys and TGV services.

 

[TheSeeker]

Does the same driver do the whole journey?

 

[MisterT]

No, train drivers drom the Dutch Thalys driver pool wil drive the trains between Amsterdam and Brussels.

 

[nlogax]

I have been wanting to book this service for a very long time. I guess I will have to keep waiting...

If the rumors about direct services by Easter are true then great. I'm waiting to book something for the end of April and my fingers are crossed fares will soon be online. Unless it's worth booking something now and changing it nearer the time?