Amsterdam - London, no need to detrain

[Blamethrower]

EUROPE: Cross-Channel high speed train operator Eurostar plans to run a test train between London and Amsterdam next month as part of the detailed planning for the launch of passenger services on the route in late 2017, CEO Nicolas Petrovic told Railway Gazette on April 25.

Detailed discussions are underway with the relevant Dutch organisations regarding the planned service. Petrovic would not commit to a precise date for the launch of revenue services, saying too many factors were outside the operator's control.

Petrovic said border formalities would be undertaken before passengers board UK-bound trains, as with the services from Paris and Brussels. As a result passengers would not be required to disembark in Lille for border checks, as currently happens on services from the south of France to the UK. The exact details still need to be worked out, but Petrovic said all parties involved are very supportive of the project, with a willingness to see it happen.

Petrovic said a service between London, Rotterdam and Amsterdam Centraal is particularly attractive to Eurostar because it is expected to be well used in both directions, with a strong business travel market and many Dutch passengers heading for the UK as well as outbound UK passengers.

Other new routes under consideration by Eurostar include a through London – Bordeaux service, which would take advantage of the opening of LGV Sud Europe Atlantique in July 2017. This route would be more focused on leisure travel than the Amsterdam service.

In 2014 Eurostar began promoting travel from the UK to Genève via a change to a TGV Lyria service at Lille Europe, but this was not as successful as had been hoped. The journey time of more than 6 h and the need to change trains were thought to be unattractive.

Eurostar said a route to Germany had often been discussed but is not currently under consideration, partly because it would be more technically complex. Its current focus is therefore on Amsterdam.

Thalys is to undertake internal changes at the end of 2016 which will see it secure train paths, traction current and drivers for the section of the route within Germany in its own right, rather than through Deutsche Bahn. DB has a minority stake in Thalys, and operates competing services from Brussels to Germany.

http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/...ans-details-of-london-amsterdam-service.html?

Seems to me like there will be border controls at Amsterdam, Schiphol, Rotterdam and Antwerp which means no de-training at Lille, which is really good news

 

[nlogax]

Seems to me like there will be border controls at Amsterdam, Schiphol, Rotterdam and Antwerp which means no de-training at Lille, which is really good news

This sounds fantastic, looking forward to using this new service. Still hopeful for some good news about direct services to / from Germany, maybe one day!

 

[chubs]

What would the journey time be?

I'm struggling to see how it would be viable to anyone but enthusiasts, considering how much competition there is for flights to any Dutch airport from London and how quick they are.

Outside of London there is no chance apart from enthusiasts, as KLM's cityhopper network has many regional airports with multiple flights a day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess it's made easier by the move towards security and segregated platforms for Thalys. One (possibly the only) benefit of that move.

 

[gordonthemoron]

I'd think it's be about 3h30m

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm struggling to see how it would be viable to anyone but enthusiasts, considering how much competition there is for flights to any Dutch airport from London and how quick they are.

Surely the same could be said of Paris or Brussels?

 

[Blamethrower]

This sounds fantastic, looking forward to using this new service. Still hopeful for some good news about direct services to / from Germany, maybe one day!

Likewise, I've done the trip many times, but on various trains. I guess they'll have to expand the secure platforms at Brussels and then close platforms at Antwerp/Rotterdam before allowing Eurostar passengers to board.

Amsterdam - they have enough room to add a Eurostar departures hall on the IJ side of the station.

Thing is with Germany is that any further in than Cologne and delays will take over. I've never been on an ICE in Germany without at least a 10 minute delay.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I'm struggling to see how it would be viable to anyone but enthusiasts, considering how much competition there is for flights to any Dutch airport from London and how quick they are.

Taking into account travel time to/from the airport and the waiting around at the airport, I'd say there wouldn't be much between the train and the plane. The further away from London you get the smaller the market will be, agreed.

 

[edwin_m]

I'd think it's be about 3h30m

In isolation that's a bit too long to be competitive with air, especially as passengers will need to allow at least 30min check-in time too.

However, what may make it more worth doing is the economies of scale with the Brussels service. Carrying Amsterdam passengers as well makes it worth running trains more often, probably at least hourly like Paris, and this will in turn attract more passengers for both destinations.

 

[AndrewNewens]

Hallelujah! And not before time Eurostar. I'm sure I read that rail has well over 50% of London Paris passenger traffic, surely the same could be achieved for Amsterdam as well? Does anyone know the actual market share for Paris & Brussels is?

 

[HowardGWR]

Further out than London, as in my case 3 hours by rail or car, you have to allow half a day to get to e.g. Gatwick airport. In our case, a 1000 departure from the house in Devon, for a 1630 flight, changing at Clapham CLJ. Cut it any finer, and you'd be worried about a suicide or some such catastrophe. Same on the roads.

One can only afford a leisure trip by ES if one books well in advance, so the same room would have to be allowed to cross London in time for a St Pancras departure. Plane wins, although add 45 mins to an hour for train in to Centraal from Schiphol.So, as with everything else, mainland links by rail are just for Londoners at present.

I did it by rail before though once, just for the experience .

(Although that was from Waterloo, a much better change -over, from an SWT train! )
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Hallelujah! Does anyone know the actual market share for Paris & Brussels is?

80% for Paris, I believe.

 

[jon0844]

Taking into account travel time to/from the airport and the waiting around at the airport, I'd say there wouldn't be much between the train and the plane. The further away from London you get the smaller the market will be, agreed.

There's around 9 million people in London, and people in Amsterdam and beyond may well want to come to London so I think there's a perfectly good market to coexist with air travellers.

It can take me almost an hour and a half to get to Heathrow alone (and that's using Heathrow Express), let alone clear security and board, whereas I can be on a Eurostar train within an hour - with the doors closed and on its way. And I'm around 20 odd miles out of London.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whyever would you not instead take a taxi to Luton (35 mins or so) and fly from there?

You may say "but it's a budget airline", but Eurostar does seem to itself act like one. It's not really comparable with BA.

 

[theageofthetra]

Have been waiting years for this. A significant amount of traffic will be those choosing to fly long haul from Schipol to avoid the UK's rip off APD tax. I can see a situation where some businesses might also do this for business class flights. Do we know yet if all London services will stop at the airport?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With few platforms it would be difficult to provide immigration facilities there, so I doubt it.

 

[gsnedders]

Given it's not explicitly stated: I presume we expect it to call at Brussels, and hence form an extension of some Brussels trains currently?

 

[WestCoast]

Excellent news really, the London - Amsterdam air market is huge and I'm sure many will consider using Eurostar as a less stressful alternative.
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Given it's not explicitly stated: I presume we expect it to call at Brussels, and hence form an extension of some Brussels trains currently?

They will have to introduce some special procedures if they allow passengers to alight at stations in Belgium and France coming from the Netherlands, to avoid a repeat of the Lille loophole fiasco. :roll:

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that is now avoided by using a separate coach, boarded separately and locked away from the rest of the train.

 

[HowardGWR]

Have been waiting years for this. A significant amount of traffic will be those choosing to fly long haul from Schiphol to avoid the UK's rip off APD tax. I can see a situation where some businesses might also do this for business class flights. Do we know yet if all London services will stop at the airport?

Corrected that for you - so many do that, I've noticed. It means a ship in a hole (thus the need for an h).
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They will have to introduce some special procedures if they allow passengers to alight at stations in Belgium and France coming from the Netherlands, to avoid a repeat of the Lille loophole fiasco. :roll:

How is that avoided at present, by the way?

 

[Peter Mugridge]

How is that avoided at present, by the way?

Those going Bruxelle - Lille are the ones who are locked in the one small part of the train and a security bod makes sure they all get off.

Nobody who is going through to London is able to book that same carriage.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How is that avoided at present, by the way?

A dedicated coach locked off from the rest of the train and boarded separately under supervision of security guards, AIUI.

 

[Bald Rick]

In isolation that's a bit too long to be competitive with air, especially as passengers will need to allow at least 30min check-in time too.

London - Glasgow / Edinburgh seems to compete very well....

 

[jon0844]

Whyever would you not instead take a taxi to Luton (35 mins or so) and fly from there?

You may say "but it's a budget airline", but Eurostar does seem to itself act like one. It's not really comparable with BA.

I could, and do fly from Luton quite a bit, but I never arrive at Luton and get on a plane and take off within 20-30 minutes!

And when I go to Paris on Eurostar, when the doors open I'm outside in a matter of minutes, even with baggage. I hope that would be the same to Amsterdam.

 

[Bald Rick]

I'd think it's be about 3h30m

I agree, but to do that it would need to skip some stops. I'm not even sure it is feasible to segregate a platform at Schiphol or Antwerp. And how will it work at Brussels Midi, as the through platforms are not segregated? Reading the RG story, it says a service between London, Rotterdam and Amsterdam Centraal, so I expect that is what we will get, ie a service separate from the Brussels trains. They might perhaps stop in Brussels on the way out but not on the way back, like Aime La Plagne on the ski train.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I could, and do fly from Luton quite a bit, but I never arrive at Luton and get on a plane and take off within 20-30 minutes!

There is that, though if you can stomach paying to jump the security queue not much more than that probably is achievable.

 

[edwin_m]

London - Glasgow / Edinburgh seems to compete very well....

Scottish government is very keen to get the high speed journey time down to 3hr, and there is some quite good evidence based on other high speed lines that a tipping point is reached then, when most of the air market goes over to rail.

 

[Bald Rick]

Scottish government is very keen to get the high speed journey time down to 3hr, and there is some quite good evidence based on other high speed lines that a tipping point is reached then, when most of the air market goes over to rail.

I agree with that. However, even when Euston to Glasgow was 5 hours at best, and the WCML was being torn up every weekend, and airport security was somewhat less stringent such that you could rock up to the airport with 15 minutes before your flight, rail still had more than 10% share of that city pair air/rail market. It's now over 20% IIRC. Edinburgh is higher.

Turning to Amsterdam, there are nearly 60 flights each way a day on the London - Amsterdam route between BA, KLM and Squeezy (and their partners). I may be wrong but I think this is the most intensive city pair from London. There's another 9 to Rotterdam. Assuming a rather pessimistic 100 passengers on each, taking a 20% market share of that will give a very healthy load on 2 return trips by Eurostar. Albeit I think that more than 2 return trips would be needed to give an attractive frequency.
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I could, and do fly from Luton quite a bit, but I never arrive at Luton and get on a plane and take off within 20-30 minutes!

Best I ever did was 31mins from terminal front door to departure time, part of a home (Herts) to central Glasgow record of 3h 25m, and the plane was half an hour late. Mark you, it also included a touchdown to taxi race at Glasgow where I breasted the tape in under 4 minutes.

 

[AlexNL]

I guess they'll have to expand the secure platforms at Brussels

Maybe not. If UK-bound Eurostars are routed over the western ring line around Brussels (line 28) instead of going through the tunnel, they can enter the current terminal at Brussels South from the south.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I would use this if located within 2 hours of ST P.

If priced attractiveley enough then I might use it if further away 2 but at present my current default neans of travel to Holand is by see

 

[Blamethrower]

Maybe not. If UK-bound Eurostars are routed over the western ring line around Brussels (line 28) instead of going through the tunnel, they can enter the current terminal at Brussels South from the south.

And reverse?

Reversal will never be a solution, these are high speed trains, not sprinters!

Hows about, convert the bays into through platforms, or maybe just 1 that is bi-directional?

It will be interesting to see if they are extensions of Brussels trains or perhaps they bypass the city entirely, connecting with Amsterdam services at Lille.
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I would use this if located within 2 hours of ST P.

If priced attractiveley enough then I might use it if further away 2 but at present my current default neans of travel to Holand is by see

I live within 35 minutes of St Pan but also the same for Luton Airport (M ****ing 1 permitting) and so I'd be able to make a direct comparison when implemented.

*edit: looks like I've found a word that gets through the profanity filter