An hourly Glasgow Queen Street to Arbroath service - will it happen?

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As I live near the railway in carnoustie, does anyone think an hourly Glasgow queen street to arbroath service calling at the likes of gleneagles, broughty ferry, monifieth and carnoustie will happen, if so when and what will the calling pattern out of queen street and dundee be like without clashing with other services.

Will there be more services at monifeith if a trial did happen just like broughty ferry at the moment?
 
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ainsworth74

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Arbroath already has an hourly service to Glasgow Queen Street it departs at approximately xx30 every hour.
 

Polarbear

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I suspect the OP means a semi-fast service from Glasgow to Arbroath, in addition to the Glasgow to Aberdeen service.

I could see this happening. In BR days, some routes did offer a mix of semi-fast & express services but since privatisation, most routes have gravitated to a standard pattern between major centres with variable stopping patterns to cater for smaller flows of traffic.
 

ainsworth74

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I suspect the OP means a semi-fast service from Glasgow to Arbroath, in addition to the Glasgow to Aberdeen service.
Ahh that would make sense, it didn't seem clear from the OP.

In which case I think unless Scotrail/Transport Scotland/local government have stated it as an aspiration for the future then it's unlikely to happen. Would there even be demand for a semi-fast service along that route?
 

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I'd say a lot of it may actually be weighted by how Broughty Ferry fares in this trial, if numbers increase than that means that there's a good argument for permanent changes, maybe by way of a service from Perth-Arbroath every hour, or indeed starting it back from Queen St. Obviously if Broughty Ferry doesn't do so well then we can expect the relevant bodies to use it as proof that better services would be pointless.
 

tbtc

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This would be to replace the Glasgow - Perth section of the Glasgow - Inverness services (as discussed on the EGIP thread recently IIRC?) plus the Carnoustie stop from the current Glasgow - Aberdeen service (which would run non-stop from Dundee to Arbroath)?

Basically, a "we'll have plenty spare 170s after all the electrification, what can we do with them" service.
 

rail-britain

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As I live near the railway in carnoustie, does anyone think an hourly Glasgow queen street to arbroath service calling at the likes of gleneagles, broughty ferry, monifieth and carnoustie will happen,
I doubt there will be any changes from the current timetable until at least the second timetable in the new franchise
However, standard stopping patterns are very likely
In what is effectively the additional second hourly service between Glasgow to Dundee, had to be extended to Arbroath in order to keep the through platforms at Dundee clear of terminating trains (the terminating platforms are already at capacity), plus it allowed the reintroduction of the long withdrawn Dundee - Arbroath local service (which ceased with sprinterisation)

However it does make sense to use this second service to feed into what could become a faster Glasgow - Aberdeen service (calling at Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath only, plus stops thereafter)

Equally, if the proposed improvements between Arbroath and Montrose take place, then this second service would then be extended to Aberdeen, thus providing a completely regular three trains per hour
However, that is still a long way off (more likely to be included with the electrification to Perth and Dundee)
 

reb0118

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This seems quite similar to one of my proposals that I made whilst studying "Transportation Engineering" at Napier Polytechnic (yes is was that long ago it was a Poly) a good few years back.

In my view Broughty Ferry, Monifeith, & Carnoustie deserve and could theoretically support having extra stopping trains. However the problem (as with so many other smaller towns on fast lines) is that you will dilute the "express" nature of the fast trains if you introduce more stops. These smaller stations still need a service but the service actually provided is infrequent and irregular. This helps to suppress demand for these stations - a vicious circle.

If the money could be found for an additional semi - fast service from Glasgow to Arbroath I would certainly support it. I do not see any difficulty in (re?)opening a third platform at Arbroath for terminating services. Just to put jam on the gingerbread the semi -fast Edinburgh - Dundee could also be extended to Arbroath too to provide a half - hour stopping service to Dundee then introduce an houly local all stops Montrose - Inverurie (new stops at Newtonhill, Cove Bay, North Aberdeen[?], & Kintore) so the express services will only stop at Arbroath & Montrose between Dundee and Aberdeen.

Just a thought.........or few...............


I think the good burghers of Stonehaven will not be happy with the above proposal.
 
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rail-britain

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However the problem (as with so many other smaller towns on fast lines) is that you will dilute the "express" nature of the fast trains if you introduce more stops

If the money could be found for an additional semi - fast service from Glasgow to Arbroath I would certainly support it
the semi -fast Edinburgh - Dundee could also be extended to Arbroath too to provide a half - hour stopping service to Dundee then introduce an houly local all stops Montrose - Inverurie (new stops at Newtonhill, Cove Bay, North Aberdeen[?], & Kintore) so the express services will only stop at Arbroath & Montrose between Dundee and Aberdeen
The current second service does not dilute the express nature, it is just simply additional capacity
It is primarily a Glasgow - Perth service, with some extended to Dundee, and some of those extended to Arbroath
At the moment that is all the infrastructure allows
Once EGIP is completed this should allow the Perth service to be extended to Dundee, and in turn an increase to Arbroath

It's not so much about money, but present resources
Once EGIP is completed many of these issues become resolved, with quite an extensive cascade of simplification of the rolling stock fleet throughout Scotland expected

Extending both Glasgow and Edinburgh services to Arbroath essentially offers more flexibility
However, this in itself results in a more complex timetable and diagrams, therefore I do not expect this to change
The Edinburgh - Aberdeen services are expected to call at less stops, not more
However, to offset this, there will be more services on the routes
Cramming them all in will be quite an achievement, and if any of them breakdown, it all goes pear...
 

tbtc

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In what is effectively the additional second hourly service between Glasgow to Dundee, had to be extended to Arbroath in order to keep the through platforms at Dundee clear of terminating trains (the terminating platforms are already at capacity)
At capacity?

There's only the hourly Edinburgh - Dundee semi fast that uses the terminating bays at Dundee, and there are two terminating bays IIRC
 

rail-britain

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At capacity?
There's only the hourly Edinburgh - Dundee semi fast that uses the terminating bays at Dundee, and there are two terminating bays
Yes, but what about through the entire day
You will note from the current timetable the variation in the Glasgow - Perth - Dundee - Arbroath service
If this service used one of these two platforms, it pushes these two platforms over their current capacity, and will in turn affect other services
 

Scotrail84

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The signalling between Dundee and Arbroath is a problem, long sections mean the local stoppers would hold up the express services. Can they cross units from the down to the up at Arbroath?
 

reb0118

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The current second service does not dilute the express nature, it is just simply additional capacity
I agree, but there used to be a tendency to add infrequent/irregular stops at smaller stations to express trains to avoid having to introduce extra services (with the attendant costs of additional trains & staffing)


The Edinburgh - Aberdeen services are expected to call at less stops, not more
However, to offset this, there will be more services on the routes.
Similar to the removal of most of the Fife stops from the Aberdeen expresses and the addition of the Edinburgh - Dundee semi-fast. What are your views on this? I think it has been a success.


Cramming them all in will be quite an achievement, and if any of them breakdown, it all goes pear...
......shaped. Too true!! Worth the effort though............
 

rail-britain

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The signalling between Dundee and Arbroath is a problem, long sections mean the local stoppers would hold up the express services. Can they cross units from the down to the up at Arbroath?
It would be possible, with signalling improvements
I therefore assume you mean northbound prior to arriving at the station, and at present this is not possible
However, if Network Rail made these changes, they may as well implement shorter sections between Dundee and Arbroath which I believe is part of the Arbroath - Montrose capacity improvement
Equally, with the planned increase in services between Dundee and Aberdeen swapping a unit from the down to up may block a southbound service
It would be easier to reinstate the third platform
 

reb0118

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The signalling between Dundee and Aberbrothock is a problem, long sections mean the local stoppers would hold up the express services. Can they cross units from the down to the up at Aberbrothock?
The down platform is an island platform but there is no loop on the other face just a siding accessed from the north side.

Why not convert the siding to a passenger loop to allow the stopper to terminate on platform "3". A cross over would be required to bring the service from there back onto the up line to form the back workings. This loop would help keep the stopper out of the path of the express services.
 

rail-britain

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Similar to the removal of most of the Fife stops from the Aberdeen expresses and the addition of the Edinburgh - Dundee semi-fast. What are your views on this? I think it has been a success.
This is almost exactly as it was when I worked at InterCity East Coast, it worked then so shows how the franchise changed to a "stop at every tree and lampost" ethos, which has since reversed
Take a look at a ScotRail timetable for when the Class 150/2 units were introduced, clearly local (Kirkcaldy), semi-fast(Dundee Sprinters), and fast (ScotRail Express and InterCity)
It has only taken 15 years for the franchise operators to realise this...
 

LE Greys

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The down platform is an island platform but there is no loop on the other face just a siding accessed from the north side.

Why not convert the siding to a passenger loop to allow the stopper to terminate on platform "3". A cross over would be required to bring the service from there back onto the up line to form the back workings. This loop would help keep the stopper out of the path of the express services.
Agreed, but tricky because it will require an extensive posession. I'm also hoping for a bit of 125 running along there and a bridge at Broughty Ferry, but I doubt that saving two or three minutes will be worth all the investment, especially considering the slow section through Fife.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
This is almost exactly as it was when I worked at InterCity East Coast, it worked then so shows how the franchise changed to a "stop at every tree and lampost" ethos, which has since reversed
Take a look at a ScotRail timetable for when the Class 150/2 units were introduced, clearly local (Kirkcaldy), semi-fast(Dundee Sprinters), and fast (ScotRail Express and InterCity)
It has only taken 15 years for the franchise operators to realise this...
Sounds like ICEC trying to maximise revenue by claiming to serve all these stations, and probably various campaign groups after a 'direct service to London'.
 

rail-britain

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Sounds like ICEC trying to maximise revenue by claiming to serve all these stations, and probably various campaign groups after a 'direct service to London'.
InterCity HST between Aberdeen and Kings Cross used to call at pretty much the same stops as ScotRail Express, or fewer
Aberdeen
Stonehaven
Montrose
Arbroath
Dundee
Leuchars
Cupar
Kirkcaldy
Inverkeithing
Edinburgh

That seems to be pretty much unchanged, it is the ScotRail services that have changed from express to more stops, and more recently to less stops with higher frequencies
As an example
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Montrose - Arbroath - Dundee (ScotRail Express and InterCity)
Now this varies
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Arbroath - Dundee
Aberdeen - Montrose - Arbroath - Dundee
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Montrose - Dundee
Different stops, overall journey time the same
The former InterCity services remain unchanged
 

MidnightFlyer

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As an example
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Montrose - Arbroath - Dundee (ScotRail Express and InterCity)
Now this varies
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Arbroath - Dundee
Aberdeen - Montrose - Arbroath - Dundee
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Montrose - Dundee
Different stops, overall journey time the same
The former InterCity services remain unchanged
A minor issue, but I thought all trains called at Arbroath, with them alternating between Montrose and Stonehaven?
 

Scotrail84

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InterCity HST between Aberdeen and Kings Cross used to call at pretty much the same stops as ScotRail Express, or fewer
Aberdeen
Stonehaven
Montrose
Arbroath
Dundee
Leuchars
Cupar
Kirkcaldy
Inverkeithing
Edinburgh

That seems to be pretty much unchanged, it is the ScotRail services that have changed from express to more stops, and more recently to less stops with higher frequencies
As an example
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Montrose - Arbroath - Dundee (ScotRail Express and InterCity)
Now this varies
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Arbroath - Dundee
Aberdeen - Montrose - Arbroath - Dundee
Aberdeen - Stonehaven - Montrose - Dundee
Different stops, overall journey time the same
The former InterCity services remain unchanged
The 09:28 Edinburgh to a Aberdeen is first stop Dundee after leaving haymarket, it mates a difference. Also does anyone know why the old Tay bridge south yard has been cleared of all vegetetaion? You can now see what looks like a old load bank where trees used to be. Is it going to be used as storage for p,way stuff for up and coming engineering works?
 

Scotrail84

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A minor issue, but I thought all trains called at Arbroath, with them alternating between Montrose and Stonehaven?
I'm not sure if this is correct or not but I'm sure all trains ex Edinburgh call at Arbroath but not all trains ex Glasgow stop there.
 

tbtc

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At capacity?

There's only the hourly Edinburgh - Dundee semi fast that uses the terminating bays at Dundee, and there are two terminating bays IIRC
Yes, but what about through the entire day
You will note from the current timetable the variation in the Glasgow - Perth - Dundee - Arbroath service
If this service used one of these two platforms, it pushes these two platforms over their current capacity, and will in turn affect other services
At the moment the hourly semi-fast off Edinburgh occupies one of the two bays at Dundee for around fifteen/twenty minutes of the hour (arriving around xx:18-xx:20, leaving around xx:35), so the should be no problem with using the other bay at Dundee for a clockface hourly Glasgow service to layover in (unless you can provide a copy of the proposed timetable?)
 

Scotrail84

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At the moment the hourly semi-fast off Edinburgh occupies one of the two bays at Dundee for around fifteen/twenty minutes of the hour (arriving around xx:18-xx:20, leaving around xx:35), so the should be no problem with using the other bay at Dundee for a clockface hourly Glasgow service to layover in (unless you can provide a copy of the proposed timetable?)
The other bay is currently used to stable Glasgow - Dundee services and the royal scotsman at times gets stabled at Dundee. There is also platform 1 that is split into 2 sections. A 3 car set can be stabled at the north end of platform 1 enabling south bound services to use the south end of the platform using the loop from dock street tunnel.
 

Failed Unit

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At the moment the hourly semi-fast off Edinburgh occupies one of the two bays at Dundee for around fifteen/twenty minutes of the hour (arriving around xx:18-xx:20, leaving around xx:35), so the should be no problem with using the other bay at Dundee for a clockface hourly Glasgow service to layover in (unless you can provide a copy of the proposed timetable?)
Considering now there are already running Glasgow to Dundee services such as the 1610 I can't see any capacity problem. (there is an arrival at about 1642 at Glasgow which i guess left Dundee around 1500)

No way platform capacity at Dundee will be a problem. They will not layover more than 1 hour. I suspect it will be around 15 mins as now even if this means Glasgow - Dundee - Edinburgh.

A stopping Dundee - Aberdeen would be useful.


How about Edinburgh / Glasgow - Aberdeen calling all stations between Aberdeen and Dundee with alternate every other hour between Edinburgh / Glasgow and an express to Edinburgh and Glasgow splitting at Dundee?
 

tbtc

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The other bay is currently used to stable Glasgow - Dundee services and the royal scotsman at times gets stabled at Dundee. There is also platform 1 that is split into 2 sections. A 3 car set can be stabled at the north end of platform 1 enabling south bound services to use the south end of the platform using the loop from dock street tunnel.
I was presuming that the proposed hourly service that the OP was talking about would replace the current Glasgow - Dundee "shorts" (as well as the Glasgow - Perth bit of the Inverness services?) to make Glasgow - Dundee twice an hour so there would be the current service at Dundee each hour:

  • Glasgow - Dundee
  • Glasgow - Dundee Aberdeen
  • Edinburgh - Dundee
  • Edinburgh - Dundee - Aberdeen

...so there ought to be space for both of the terminating services to have their own dedicated bay (given that the Edinburgh one only uses the bay for around a quarter/third of each hour maybe they could even use the same one).

I've no problem with the service extending to Arbroath (esp as it could allow the current Aberdeen services to speed up by omitting Carnoustie), I just couldn't understand the argument that there was no space at Dundee for another terminating service each hour.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Considering now there are already running Glasgow to Dundee services such as the 1610 I can't see any capacity problem. (there is an arrival at about 1642 at Glasgow which i guess left Dundee around 1500)

No way platform capacity at Dundee will be a problem. They will not layover more than 1 hour. I suspect it will be around 15 mins as now even if this means Glasgow - Dundee - Edinburgh.

A stopping Dundee - Aberdeen would be useful.


How about Edinburgh / Glasgow - Aberdeen calling all stations between Aberdeen and Dundee with alternate every other hour between Edinburgh / Glasgow and an express to Edinburgh and Glasgow splitting at Dundee?
Makes sense.

It'd be nice if the Aberdeen - Glasgow service allowed a connection at Dundee to the semi-fast Dundee - Edinburgh (and the Aberdeen - Edinburgh service allowed a connection at Dundee to the semi-fast Dundee - Glasgow service) to give two chances an hour to travel from Aberdeen to bothGlasgow and Edinburgh, but that may lead to lopsided times.
 

rail-britain

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How about Edinburgh / Glasgow - Aberdeen calling all stations between Aberdeen and Dundee with alternate every other hour between Edinburgh / Glasgow and an express to Edinburgh and Glasgow splitting at Dundee?
Joining and splitting of trains is best avoided, the only practical use is at Aberdeen

Perhaps this will make it clearer (example) :
(xx40 Glasgow) xx00 Dundee - all stops - Arbroath - Montrose - Stonehaven - (Portlethen every second service) - Aberdeen
(xx20 Edinburgh) xx20 Dundee - Arbroath - Stonehaven - Aberdeen
(xx10 Glasgow) - xx40 Dundee - Montrose - Stonehaven - Aberdeen
(EC/XC) xx45 Dundee - Arbroath - Montrose - Stonehaven - Aberdeen
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I was presuming that the proposed hourly service that the OP was talking about would replace the current Glasgow - Dundee "shorts" (as well as the Glasgow - Perth bit of the Inverness services?) to make Glasgow - Dundee twice an hour so there would be the current service at Dundee each hour
That's the plan, there just isn't enough rolling stock just now, as discussed before
Once the Class 170 units are released from the E&G route they will be used on :
Edinburgh - Inverness (hourly)
Edinburgh - Aberdeen (hourly)
Glasgow - Aberdeen (two per hour)
However, this final proposal requires Network Rail to improve signalling between Arbroath and Montrose, parts of which have already been completed
The remaining Class 170 units will be displaced the GSW

In the short term Class 170 units will operate :
Perth - Inverness (every two hours, providing an hourly service)
Edinburgh - Perth (hourly, providing a half hourly service)

It is all a bit disjointed, but it is a short term solution to the increasing demand
 
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tbtc

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That's the plan, there just isn't enough rolling stock just now, as discussed before
Once the Class 170 units are released from the E&G route they will be used on :
Edinburgh - Inverness (hourly)
Edinburgh - Aberdeen (hourly)
Glasgow - Aberdeen (two per hour)
However, this final proposal requires Network Rail to improve signalling between Arbroath and Montrose, parts of which have already been completed
The remaining Class 170 units will be displaced the GSW

In the short term Class 170 units will operate :
Perth - Inverness (every two hours, providing an hourly service)
Edinburgh - Perth (hourly, providing a half hourly service)

It is all a bit disjointed, but it is a short term solution to the increasing demand
Plus presumably the other Fife services? Or would you have 158s exclusively on these?
 

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Joining and splitting of trains is best avoided, the only practical use is at
Why? These are turbo stars, very simular to electrostar but with no corridor connections?

Works fine at:
Faversham
Ashford and Haywards Heath to name 3 on a much more intensive service so why should it be a problem to split / join at Dundee?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Plus presumably the other Fife services? Or would you have 158s exclusively on these?
I think the use of the 170s is just speculation to be honest.
 

Scotrail84

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I would have 158s on the Fife locals. Due to the frequent stops and relative short distances between stations 170s would be better elsewhere.
I'd run 4cars round fife with 156s as well as 158s. Sprinters round the circle. Remember that??? ;)
 
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