And People Wonder why

[Old Timer]

From a Network Rail advert.

The bold is mine.

Using your expertise in Project Management, you’ll enjoy implementing and monitoring an exciting variety of projects, ensuring they’re engineered to the high standards we expect.

The Operations Services function operates the railway day-to-day. It delivers train paths, timetabling and train movements to enable safe performance and meet the needs of our customers. The function owns and manages our business relationships with the passenger and freight operators and external commercial stakeholders. The functional customer focused organisation provides clear ownership of operating responsibilities for all customers and stakeholders. The area delivery units are the building blocks of engineering and operations excellence.

Managing all engineering activities, you’ll ensure the projects you work on are of an incredibly high standard and result in value-for-money schemes. Naturally we’ll expect each and every project to be environmentally responsible, while meeting our expectations regarding time, cost and quality.

Alongside the monitoring of projects, you’ll also allocate design and construction contracts, provide project management advice to colleagues and contractors, and undertake reviews of design and contract activities.

It’s not necessary for you to have rail industry experience.

So you dont actually have to know anything but you are still able to tell me how to do my job ?

It is beyond my simple capacity to understand how anyone without the correct infrastructure experience can actually hope to undertake this role successfully.

For example how can anyone without the requisite knowledge hope to "undertake reviews of design", how would they even be able to understand let alone identify issues ?

Only in the UK, and only with Network Rail :roll:

 

[sprite]

Sometimes an outsider can offer a new idea or outlook. I have a small amount of knowledge on railway infrastructure, however my father has been an S&T man for many years, he now works doing design work (still for NR). He had some drawings to finish documenting and asked me to read off parts for him to save time. I asked him to clarify a few bits as the circuit was a litle unclear, and together we found a flaw and sorted it.
Ok a little different, but it shows an outsiders view (albeit with an interest, studying for a physics degree and with a background troubleshooting and maintaining computers) can help.
I would assume that the role will involve on the job training to ensure that the required knowledge is held by the successful applicant.

 

[lincolnshire]

Its a typical Network Rail job advert.

Another one compiled by someone who hasn,t a clue about the job description, I wonder if they worked for an estate agent? Sounds just like one of there ads. they write for houses.
I bet it was reviewed by one of today's Network Rail engineers who have come from the University of Bull****ology who have a wealth of experience in ??????????
The railway in BR days may have had a load of old farts working for them , but they did Know how a joined up railway worked.

 

[a good off]

From a Network Rail advert.

The bold is mine.



So you dont actually have to know anything but you are still able to tell me how to do my job ?

It is beyond my simple capacity to understand how anyone without the correct infrastructure experience can actually hope to undertake this role successfully.

For example how can anyone without the requisite knowledge hope to "undertake reviews of design", how would they even be able to understand let alone identify issues ?

Only in the UK, and only with Network Rail :roll:

How the ship sinks deeper... Chin up OT. I'll send our new Graduate paper clip supply manager over to you to save the day.

 

[Nym]

OT, don't worry, the graduate that applied with proberbly the most transferable rail knowledge for the engineering scheme at NR had his application put on hold, where as the same application with network rail scribbled out and TfL LUL put in has seen that graduate at a phone interview.

At least in London everything will be fine...

Oh and PS: Most graduate staff are absolutely useless because they've never worked a day in their life, amd don't know how to even work properly, let alone how to work in the Rail industry or even a transport industry. Thought that working my whole life since 16 would be an advantage, but NR don't seem to think working over a year in Logistics (as a mover, shover, and planner) is somthing good for their business.

 

[tempests1]

When looking for a job role with Network Rail sometime ago with all the job descriptions of the posts I was applying for I matched the requirements to the letter, had all the neccessary experience/qualifications but still kept on getting knocked back. I think it's a case of them wanting a blank canvas that if you have railway experience it is held against you. They want to mould the person to their specifications. They love graduates and think it will take three years to get them up to scratch but we will end up with a yes man/women! I ended up happily with a large rail infrastructure contactor who want people with the best and most relevent experience

 

[Nym]

IO havn't heard back from any inferstructure companies yet so I'm sitting fingers crossed for the two rude words combined company, that seems to value experience more. Where as I do agree there, it does seem Network Rail (But not TfL) want raw graduates to train how to wipe their _______ <snip> the Network Rail way, rather than having any experienced graduates coming into their workforce, (hence a three year scheme rather than most company's two years, even including PTS, plant licences etc.)

 

[Oswyntail]

Does the op have experience training and understanding of what a Project Manager does? He manages projects, ensuring the right people are doing the right things at the right time. If there are areas where he needs specialist input, he gets that input.
In my experience, projects run solely by the specialists are unmitigated disasters.

 

[Nonsense]

So you dont actually have to know anything but you are still able to tell me how to do my job ?

You should already know how to do your job, the Job of the Project Manager is to coordinate your job with that of everyone else on the project.

A Project Manager doesn't need to be an expert to undertake reviews of design, but he/she does need to have the confidence that the team does have that expertise.

 

[theblackwatch]

It seems to be a modern fashion that you don't have to know anything about the subject to be employed in it. A year or so back I saw an advert for a journalist for a magazine, and it said that knowledge of the subject was not an essential requirement. (I guess that explains why some press reporting of things is so way off the mark.)

 

[Schnellzug]

Management skills seem to be considered more important than any experience in the subject; although to be fair, sometimes if you have been in an industry for 45 years one's skills in handling employee relations and so on can sometimes be rather 'old fashioned'. This is after all the way that Government operates; how many people in Ministerial positions have any experience in the areas for which they have responsibility?

(How many of them have any Management skills, is another question entirely, of course.)

 

[Old Timer]

Does the op have experience training and understanding of what a Project Manager does? He manages projects, ensuring the right people are doing the right things at the right time. If there are areas where he needs specialist input, he gets that input.
In my experience, projects run solely by the specialists are unmitigated disasters.

Been a Project Manager, Senior Project Manager, and Contract Manager for many years now, so I hope I would be aware of what the role requires.

One thing I do know is that the PM has to represent his Projects and cannot turn up to every meeting mob-handed with the various experts. There is also the need at the higher level to provide support and guidance to those who make decisions because that is also the role.

It is also the case, as the senior man that one has to make a decision because that is where the buck stops. Pretty much always this is not a simple decision and a lot will ride on the experience that a PM/SPM/CM will bring. In these days of Management by Graduate it is very likely that the senior management will not be sufficiently skilled to be able to make that decision.

You will see therefore that whilst the theory of managing applies, in practice experience is always a key factor. I know because as an exercise in interest I actually contacted a variety of high level Recruitment Consultants in various facets to see exactly how easy it would be to change Industry. In EVERY single case I was laughed at when suggesting that there were many interchangeable skills. Every single one (with one exception) stated that their clients would not accept anyone who did not have Industry experience. The management is management argument never even go to fly.

The ONE exception was when I rang up a reruitment company which works for Network Rail claiming to be a media studies Graduate who was looking to go into Project management. I made clear my lack of knowledge and skills, however the lady was very enthusiastic and confident that she could place me, as she had done with others. As she said "I know my Client and you will be fine".
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

IO havn't heard back from any inferstructure companies yet so I'm sitting fingers crossed for the two rude words combined company, that seems to value experience more. Where as I do agree there, it does seem Network Rail (But not TfL) want raw graduates to train how to wipe their _______ <snip> the Network Rail way, rather than having any experienced graduates coming into their workforce, (hence a three year scheme rather than most company's two years, even including PTS, plant licences etc.)

The major Infrastructure Companies place great value on experience, although they do recruit raw Graduates but this is into their own training schemes.

If you want to let me know who you have applied to and on what basis I may be able to suggest a route or know someone who is looking. I have to say though that without experience it can be harder. Did you do the NR course ? If so that may mean it is slightly more harder too ?

PM me rather than putting the info on here.

 

[merlodlliw]

Written up by an agency no doubt,


Bob

 

[Martin1982]

From a Network Rail advert.

The bold is mine.



So you dont actually have to know anything but you are still able to tell me how to do my job ?

It is beyond my simple capacity to understand how anyone without the correct infrastructure experience can actually hope to undertake this role successfully.

For example how can anyone without the requisite knowledge hope to "undertake reviews of design", how would they even be able to understand let alone identify issues ?

Only in the UK, and only with Network Rail :roll:

Explains a lot as to why the signalling at Farringdon through the core keeps going bang every few weeks

 

[DarloRich]

OT - far be it from me to disagree with the father of the board, as I have great respect for your knowledge, experience and technical expertise, but I am not entirely sure what your problem with the advert is? Is it:

1) The wording - yes I agree it is very poor. It is basically a puff piece. However it doesn’t look like one for the area in which I work.

2) I am involved with a wide portfolio of projects ranging from minor works to building new depots, from minor rolling stock enhancements to fleet wide overhauls ( as a project planner) and our projects do not run like the advert suggests. The project manager manages the project (obviously) he relies on the expertise & support of his colleagues. We tend to have a project engineer, a C&P person, me, designers, finance support, and other specialists as the project requires.

I have never sat in a meeting and seen a project manager TELL an engineer how to do his job. That would be, frankly, preposterous. Neither would i expect an engineer to tell me how to do my job.

I don’t think "ensuring they’re engineered to the high standards we expect" means telling someone how to do the job. Rather it means trying to ensure the project runs to corporate governance, financial and engineering standards.

3) I am involved in reviews of design. I sit with the designers, project manager and project engineer and discuss what they are doing, how long it will take, what issues there are , what resource implications there are, they are sometimes asked to explain or justify how they have come to a design conclusion; however I have never seen the project manager tell the designer how to design

4) Why does NOT having railway experience matter for this particular role? Are you suggesting that someone with project management experience in say, highways or construction or civils or the nuclear industry should be prevented from employment simply because they have no railway experience? I am afraid that that is simply crazy. If you are applying for a track engineer’s job, say, then obviously you need railway experience. Project management does not, necessarily, require railway experience. What it requires is project management experience in a relevant sector OR that you have the relevant aptitude and transferable skills to move over from a non related project management sector.

To me, the essence of project management is managing people, tasks and finances. You need to get the best out of the people who support you in order to deliver the project.

I had no railway experience (other than a general interest in railways) before I came to work here 18 months ago. That doesn’t mean I can’t do the job as well or better than someone who has done the job for many years. As has been said, people from “outside” can bring new ideas or a fresh approach to things. Just because things have been done one way for 1000 years doesn’t mean it is right (and by the same token not all/most (?) new ideas are better than the old)

The advert does not represent what goes on in the part of the business I work for. I appreciate that this area is somewhat different from the area in which OT has experience. We are not that well known (as OT himself showed in a recent post) so this is not surprising.

 

[Old Timer]

It seems to be a modern fashion that you don't have to know anything about the subject to be employed in it. A year or so back I saw an advert for a journalist for a magazine, and it said that knowledge of the subject was not an essential requirement. (I guess that explains why some press reporting of things is so way off the mark.)

Hence why we get the likes of Johann Hari.

 

[tbtc]

To me, the essence of project management is managing people, tasks and finances. You need to get the best out of the people who support you in order to deliver the project

True.

Managing and doing are two different things. My boss probably couldn't do my job, but he knows how to manage me (to do my job).

Being a sucessful football manager isn't necessarily because you were a sucessful football player - a lot of the time it's completely different.

I can see why those who've worked in the railway industry for a long time resent the idea of anyone coming in without railway experience, of course.

 

[142094]

Have to say that I'm in the same situation at Nym with applying for the NR scheme. Part of their literature advertising the posts shows someone who had a Religious Studies degree who was taken on last year. I don't think I need to say any more on that.

 

[DarloRich]

What is wrong with a religious studies degree? So which degrees ARE ok for a Network Rail career?

Obviously if you are going for an engineering career you need engineering qualifications and degrees. What if you are applying for a, for instance, a compensation analyst role or a business development role? What sort of degree should you have then?

 

[Hydro]

I'd argue you can do plenty without a degree

 

[DarloRich]

I would agree!

 

[Nym]

I would as well... Even though i'm studying one, i see so many thick people finishing uni sucsessfully...

 

[Tin Rocket]

Hence why we get the likes of Johann Hari.

He is on a media ethics course in the states at the minute,he will be writing his own articles soon

 

[142094]

What is wrong with a religious studies degree? So which degrees ARE ok for a Network Rail career?

Nothing wrong with a Religious Studies degree, but it makes you wonder how this sets someone up to work on the railways.

 

[HSTEd]

This is just a result of the idea in the English speaking world that "management" is a seperate skill that can be transferred across industries.

 

[Oswyntail]

Nothing wrong with a Religious Studies degree, but it makes you wonder how this sets someone up to work on the railways.

I had a degree in Classics - and a career in IT, both as "worker" and "management" (including project management). If you can think enough to get a degree, then you can turn your hand to most things - and can understand engineering enough to manage an engineering project.

 

[Nym]

It isn't though, put an office manager that uses team building in charge of a bunch of drivers and see what happens...

And trust me, degree doesn't mean you know how to think...

 

[exile]

Project management is a skill in itself (one I don't have) and a good project manager can indeed be successful even with a project in an industry they're unfamiliar with. However having experience of the industry in question is undoubtedly an advantage.

I've suffered several disastrous projects managed by technically brilliant and experienced people who nevertheless can't manage a project.

 

[Tin Rocket]

I would rather work for a railwayman with 30 years knowledge stored away in his head with no formal qualifications than a fresh out of uni/college grad who has been fast tracked into a high position any day,and i've worked for both types,fotunately the former more than the latter,no offence to any grads on here.

 

[Trog]

Try reading the internal job adverts, they are now so stylised and full of fluff. That sometimes the only way to workout if the job is for Civils, S&T, PW or E&P, is to look up the named contact manager on the Organisation chart and see what he does.