Anglo - Scottish Services on the S&C.

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reb0118

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We all know the Settle - Carlisle line was built as a fast Anglo - Scottish route but today apart from planned and emergency diversions to the WCM no cross border services operate on the route. I feel there is a lack of potential here. Can the forum come up with any plans for a viable Anglo - Scottish service to run over the S&C?

Over to you............
 
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Tomnick

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For starters, the 0947 Leeds - Carlisle arrives at the latter at 1214 and (unless the diagrams have changed in recent years) doesn't return until 1505. Is this the one that used to run through to Glasgow via Lockerbie?
 

phil8715

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Before rail privistisation in the 80's there used to be a couple of Glasgow-Nottingham services that ran via the S&C, I think one ran via Carstairs and another ran via the GSW.

I must admit its very under-utilised from what is was in the 80's.

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bus man

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The nottingham - Glasgow was of course the truncated version of the St panras to glasgow services , there would be a market for this again using perhaps a HST 1030 off St Pancras . However the passanger information needs to be sorted I udnerstand if you put Leeds to Calrlisle in most timetable search engines it sends you via newcastle or via manchester !
 

34D

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For starters, the 0947 Leeds - Carlisle arrives at the latter at 1214 and (unless the diagrams have changed in recent years) doesn't return until 1505. Is this the one that used to run through to Glasgow via Lockerbie?
Believe it was either the 08:45ish or 09:45ish, yes.

I really don't see why a couple of Glasgow-Nottingham a day (as per the early 1980s) couldn't work. Or at least Carlisle-Nottingham. Easy for Northern to interlace their two services by giving 15-20 mins station time in Leeds.

Example 2H81 05:50 carlisle-Leeds (arrive 08:37) could depart as 1Y17 09:05 for Nottingham.

and 1Y08 07:13 nottingham-leeds (arrive 09:20) could then form 1M53 09:47 Leeds-Carlisle.

I'd imagine that crew come off all the workings above at Leeds (to have a break) anyway, so really all we're doing is allowing passengers to stay on a unit between one crew heading off and another crew coming (but going to a different platform as previous diagrams.
 

MidnightFlyer

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I'd imagine that crew come off all the workings above at Leeds (to have a break) anyway, so really all we're doing is allowing passengers to stay on a unit between one crew heading off and another crew coming (but going to a different platform as previous diagrams.
I agree, however it may be slightly tricky to combine a few Carlisle-Nottingham trains, for example the 0713 Nottingham service runs into 17b, the Carlisle service at 0947 leaves from 2c. Paths at Leeds are quite hard to come by at the moment, so without some re-jigging this is unfavourable; however some run 'closer together', such as a couple of S&C services leaving from 15, which may be easier.
 

Welshman

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The S&C used to see to two "named" trains from St Pancras - the "Waverley" running to Ediburgh via Carlisle and the Waverley line via the Border towns, and the "Thames-Clyde Express" running to Glasgow.

Although end-to end journey times today could not match those of the ECML and WCML, I would have thought there would be a market for through trains from places like Luton, Corby, or Leicester to Glasgow, and I realise some open-access operators have considered providing them, at least from Nottingham.

Another potential flow I'm surprised has not been exploited, although not Anglo-Scottish as such, is the commuter market from the Yorkshire Dales [Settle/Hellifield] area to Manchester via Hellifield and the Ribble Valley line, and the tourist market in the opposite direction. This could be comparitively-easily tested by the extension of one or two Manchester Victoria-Clitheroe services northwards.
 

MidnightFlyer

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Another potential flow I'm surprised has not been exploited, although not Anglo-Scottish as such, is the commuter market from the Yorkshire Dales [Settle/Hellifield] area to Manchester via Hellifield and the Ribble Valley line, and the tourist market in the opposite direction. This could be comparitively-easily tested by the extension of one or two Manchester Victoria-Clitheroe services northwards.
That has been proposed by quite a few RUGs and similar groups - I believe it is being looked at as we speak, certainly this isn't a dead in the water proposal.
 

34D

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I agree, however it may be slightly tricky to combine a few Carlisle-Nottingham trains, for example the 0713 Nottingham service runs into 17b, the Carlisle service at 0947 leaves from 2c. Paths at Leeds are quite hard to come by at the moment, so without some re-jigging this is unfavourable; however some run 'closer together', such as a couple of S&C services leaving from 15, which may be easier.
Absolutely agree - and this could be the problem.
 

cuccir

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bus man:1148773 said:
However the passanger information needs to be sorted I udnerstand if you put Leeds to Calrlisle in most timetable search engines it sends you via newcastle or via manchester !
I'd suspect that the fastest route is usually via.Manchester or Caldervale. Geographically long, but much faster due to better and more frequent services.
 

phil8715

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I'm sure that a TOC could run a service over the S&C using a Voyager Glasgow to London St Pancras maybe.


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John55

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We all know the Settle - Carlisle line was built as a fast Anglo - Scottish route but today apart from planned and emergency diversions to the WCM no cross border services operate on the route. I feel there is a lack of potential here. Can the forum come up with any plans for a viable Anglo - Scottish service to run over the S&C?

Over to you............
I think your original premise is wrong. The S&C was built as a main line but I don't think it was built as a fast route. It is a well engineered route but really to allow freight to slog up and roll down rather than for express passenger trains.

In the 19th century the railways were built to carry freight but the railway companies did carry passengers as well if they could make money out of it. The big companies which made money out of main lines (GWR, LNWR, Midland etc) tended not to encourage passenger traffic unless there was a lot of money in it i.e. high fares for long distances or special services.

The Midland Railway did not have a route from England to Scotland that competed on speed with the WCML or the ECML so it always advertised the comfort of its trains not their speed. My old timetables show London - Glasgow/Edinburgh 2 hours slower than the WCML or ECML. (9 to 10 hours instead of 7 to 8 hours)

The S&C was only built because the Midland could not agree terms with the LNWR for the use of the Low Gill to Carlisle section of the WCML and tried to abandon the S&C project when it did eventually agree terms but other contractual arrangements with other railways made it carry on. In many ways a pity as we might have had 4 tracks from Preston to Carlisle if the S&C had not been built and that would probably have been better for the railway today.
 

reb0118

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I think your original premise is wrong. The S&C was built as a main line but I don't think it was built as a fast route. It is a well engineered route but really to allow freight to slog up and roll down rather than for express passenger trains.

In the 19th century the railways were built to carry freight but the railway companies did carry passengers as well if they could make money out of it. The big companies which made money out of main lines (GWR, LNWR, Midland etc) tended not to encourage passenger traffic unless there was a lot of money in it i.e. high fares for long distances or special services.

The Midland Railway did not have a route from England to Scotland that competed on speed with the WCML or the ECML so it always advertised the comfort of its trains not their speed. My old timetables show London - Glasgow/Edinburgh 2 hours slower than the WCML or ECML. (9 to 10 hours instead of 7 to 8 hours)

The S&C was only built because the Midland could not agree terms with the LNWR for the use of the Low Gill to Carlisle section of the WCML and tried to abandon the S&C project when it did eventually agree terms but other contractual arrangements with other railways made it carry on. In many ways a pity as we might have had 4 tracks from Preston to Carlisle if the S&C had not been built and that would probably have been better for the railway today.
Whilst I agree with your post, the term fast is relative. I use the term fast as opposed to local. Although the Midland did want to pull out of the proposal, when forced into it they did not stint and it was built as a main line for the lucrative Anglo - Scottish trade: both freight and passenger. Look to see where the stations are situated, look to see all the tunnels and viaducts necessary to keep the gradients down to allow fast (or faster if you prefer) running. An easier route could have wound its way through the dales slowly serving the local communities if that was the desire. Local passenger traffic was not the attraction to the Midland between Settle & Carlisle (not that they would turn away business that was prepared to come to the out of the way stations though).

As I have stated above it is my view that there is a lot of missing potential on the line today.

Can any one hazard a guess as to the running time for a Glasgow - Leeds service calling at:-

1)Motherwell, Lockerbie

Or

2)Kilmarnock, Dumfries

before continuing to:-

Carlisle, Appleby, Settle, Hellifield, Skipton, & Shipley,

Say with a 170 or 185?
 
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Blindtraveler

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theres a daily NX Coach between Corby and Glasgow with quite a few despite the long journey time riding end to end. a class 185, 170 or similar from GLC RUNNING SAME ROUTE BY RAIL WOULD BE A STORMING SUCCESS! Calling patern could be:
Glasgow, Motherwell, Carstairs (for connecting EMU/Sprinter from EDB) Lockerbie, Carlisle, Appleby, Settle,
Skipton, Shiply (for Bradford connection) Leeds, Medowhall, Sheffield, Darby, East Mids PW, Leicester and Corby.
Some decent advances and cheeper walkup tickets I think youd fill it. Think youd need a decent micro buffet with microwaved hot food though.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
reb has similar idea
 

cle

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And Buckfast.

My God - I wouldn't fancy travelling on that train. Millions too many stops too - if it's from Corby and East Midlands to Glasgow as the main purpose - you would do:

Corby - Leicester - Derby (or via Nottingham?) - Sheffield - Leeds (reverse) - Carlisle - Motherwell - Glasgow.

No need for all the shacks on the S&C itself, no demand.
 

HSTEd

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Unfortunately the slow moving freight trains will probably cause too many issues with any attempt to run fast passenger services over the route.

Maybe once the coal trade is reduced by the second dash for gas.
 

reb0118

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No need for all the shacks on the S&C itself, no demand.
I think you'd find demand exists for intermediate stops and it's only really some of the major ones.
I don't think just calling at Settle & Appleby on the S&C stretch could be construed as excessive. Passenger numbers might not be great but I'm sure they'd be worthwhile for the operator concerned. I think the flow would work both ways 1) Passengers from North Yorkshire & Westmoreland heading northbound to access the major Scottish destinations & 2) Scottish based travellers heading south to experience some of the best scenery the north of England possesses - also if fast(er) trains operated on the line in may attract extra passengers for more local journeys e.g. Settle - Carlisle or Appleby - Skipton?

I see (and on occasion issue) many tickets to/from both Oxenholme & Penrith and Central Scottish stations - there is obviously a demand there. I think there is also, but not as great admittedly, from Appleby & Settle. This demand is, in my opinion, being suppressed by a lack of through trains.
 

Condor7

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I believe that a through service from London to Glasgow would be well supported, but not by passengers taking the whole journey, (unless they especially wanted the slower scenic route) but the service would provide particularly the northern towns and cities with a faster route to Carlisle & Scotland, i.e. Nottingham, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds, Bradford.

A lot of money has been spent on the S & C and as yet the benefits of faster journey times have not been implemented, once they are this should also make a difference.
 

dk1

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One of the lame reasons for withdrawl of the 09.47 Leeds-Glasgow & return was that a class 158 would be a struggle to rescue if failed due to non-compatability with other traction & yet we now have 185s & soon to be 350s added to the route.
 

John55

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I believe that a through service from London to Glasgow would be well supported, but not by passengers taking the whole journey, (unless they especially wanted the slower scenic route) but the service would provide particularly the northern towns and cities with a faster route to Carlisle & Scotland, i.e. Nottingham, Sheffield, Wakefield, Leeds, Bradford.

A lot of money has been spent on the S & C and as yet the benefits of faster journey times have not been implemented, once they are this should also make a difference.
The only faster journey via the S&C would be to Glasgow from Leeds. All other journeys are quicker via Edinburgh and the ECML.

For example if you take Sheffield to Edinburgh the current direct train typically takes 3hrs 40 minutes. If you add the fastest journeys via Leeds and Carlisle (and deduct time for missed out stations) and add them together (so no time for changing trains) it takes 4hrs 20 minutes.

The money spent on the S&C over the last 10 years has been to allow coal trains to run at 60 mph and more of them to run. There is no money being spent to run DMUs faster than this.
 

GNERman

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I think that FOSCL said that there should be some 75mph sections of the S&C (is it all currently 60mph from HLD-CAR?) and that there should be a regular 1tph service on the line, 1tph LDS-CAR and 1tph MAN-CAR. If they stay in there own little world they may as well run said services with TnT 37's (again), 'cos it ain't gonna happen ...
 

dave59

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But NR men with orange jackets around Settle say 75mph is possible over most of the route now. Should the clipboards and suits approve it after the mooted GRIP study there could finally be an improvment over the current 20 year old sleep-inducing timetable. Prospects for further 'express' type services should then look up. Additional loop provision and removal of the 30 PSR's for e.g Ribblehead and Dent would be needed to support this.
 

Condor7

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The only faster journey via the S&C would be to Glasgow from Leeds. All other journeys are quicker via Edinburgh and the ECML.

For example if you take Sheffield to Edinburgh the current direct train typically takes 3hrs 40 minutes. If you add the fastest journeys via Leeds and Carlisle (and deduct time for missed out stations) and add them together (so no time for changing trains) it takes 4hrs 20 minutes.

The money spent on the S&C over the last 10 years has been to allow coal trains to run at 60 mph and more of them to run. There is no money being spent to run DMUs faster than this.
While this is a fair comment, I did say Carlisle & Scotland, and those other cities mentioned would benefit from a direct service to Carlisle.

I based my comments on the quicker timings for passenger trains on comments made by the Friends of the Settle and Carlisle who seem to indicate that faster speeds will be available to passenger trains in the not to distant future.
 

bluenoxid

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The only services I could see with a Scottish interface are a couple of services from the Central Belt heading towards Appleby/Settle and possibly Leeds.

The question to ask is why Newcastle is felt to be the best terminating point for a train running from Glasgow. Whilst it would be a slower route, the 156's may be better run down to Skipton.

I would like to see one train per hour Skipton - Carlisle with a good connection from Manchester, possibly reaching Appleby.
 

GNERman

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As a slight suggestion, would it not make more sense for FOSCL to want an extension to some MCV - Clitheroe services to Hellifield, thus allowing for connections onwards with little extra units/paths/staff required???
 
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