Announcement Hostility

[martynbristow]

If the guard only made one announcement on each service how do you expect travelers who board at other stations to be aware of information that is important to their journey?

There needs to be a balance struck between information and repetition. With certain trains 90% of people board at A and travel to B & C. Providing repeat announcements doesn't really help.

An example is in Liverpool we are having station reforms done on the Underground stations and EVERY DAY I am made aware 3 times that a station is closed and a rail replacement bus is running and etc etc. Given the work takes 6 months or longer I get fed up.

Information needs to be provided to passengers in a informative but concise way. A brief announcement from lesser used stations should suffice with information given at the boarding station. If your on a train that stops at e.g 5 stations, thats 5 times you get disturbed from trying to enjoy the journey.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Funny you should say that - something with almost exactly the same words happens a couple of times before departure from St Pancras on the Sheffield services.

I beg to differ. I'm a Derby County season ticket holder living in SW London. I use EMT at least twice a month to travel to games and I've never thought that the train crew were anything like hostile. Not only that but the departure boards at St Pancras are very obvious and staff check your tickets before you board your train.

At this point I should mention here that a teenage nephew of mine has in the past traveled on a wrong train from St Pancras mainly due to not listening to my advice or the announcements made prior to leaving London. Although he did have to buy a replacement ticket there and then, once his Mum had written to EMT they were happy to refund the cost of the ticket.

 

[Jonfun]

My personal view is that it is better customer service to try and help avoid passengers making a mistake by announcing it, however this is done, than not announcing it at all and ending up having to excess/new ticket/UPFN/TIR them later.

Yes, perhaps some Guards sound hostile over the tannoy, but not everyone's gifted with a good microphone voice. They're Train Guards, not radio DJs.

 

[lincolnshire]

If the guard only made one announcement on each service how do you expect travelers who board at other stations to be aware of information that is important to their journey?

They know where the train is going less they would,t have got on it, If it was a reasonable sized station the platform monitor would show the destination and the calling points and the time it leaves , so they should then have sufficient information to decide that its the train they want to catch, only for the the guard or what ever they call themselves these days to repeat it all again. Just for good measure the buffet department to recite all there crap again and again and again.

Does the bus driver go through all this after every bus stop he stops at?

How did we go on years ago then? we managed and got where we was going and if we knew the train had a buffet car and was a bit peckish we could usually find that as its got to be somewhere between the front and the back of the train I hope.

How much spoon feeding does people need these days?

 

[bb21]

They know where the train is going less they would,t have got on it, If it was a reasonable sized station the platform monitor would show the destination and the calling points and the time it leaves , so they should then have sufficient information to decide that its the train they want to catch, only for the the guard or what ever they call them selves to repeat it all again. Just for good measure the buffet department to recite all there crap again and again and again.

All those threads I remember reading on this forum about people (including some very experienced forum members and railwaymen) getting the wrong train for a variety of reasons (incorrect PIS displays, wrong assumptions by themselves, incorrect information from platform or other station staff, etc) must have been a figment of my imagination I suppose.

Does the bus driver go through all this after every bus stop he stoops at?

Not physically possible given the constraints of the schedules. Would you like him to do that?

Why does London have iBus systems which make announcements regarding where the bus is going or where the next stop is then, I wonder?!

How did we go on years ago then? we managed and got where we was going and if we knew the train had a buffet car and was a bit peckish we could usually find that as its got to be somewhere between the front and the back of the train I hope.

People still got on wrong trains, I gathered from stories told by various forum members.

How much spoon feeding does people need these days?

If I give my true answer to that question I will no doubt be accused by some on here of being patronising.

 

[Crossover]

I will make a judgement on the VTEC side when I next travel with them this week (although of course we may not have a train crew who is so 'hostile'
It has been a while since I travelled from Manchester regularly but even 3-4 years ago I have heard VT and XC guards mention Anytime fares and to give people who may have realised they are on the wrong train an opportunity to leave at Stockport. I see no direct issue with giving a worst case scenario but, if what the OP has said is accurate, a better way to go about it would be 'could be as much as £112', which I think another member has also mentioned. Almost certainly nothing wrong with setting an expectation, though

 

[Clip]

So I put it that the customer-friendly Virgin should ditch forthwith the approach of emphasising the risks, drawbacks and costs of rail travel by needlessly pointing out bad things that they might do to you but probably can't while the train is sat in the platform! This information isn't helpful they would know it from the ticket office; it's only going to scare people most of whom will already have valid tickets. Excessive announcements also annoy people, I thought we had plenty of evidence on that now. Lastly these announcements run contrary to the sections in the new Passenger's Charter about lost / mistaken tickets.

Really? Well that's a contradiction to what you said earlier when you stated

are not valid and customers with Advance tickets, available as Print at Home tickets (which must have been printed, not shown on a device screen) or tickets with 'Advance' in the top left hand corner, should note that these are valid on the booked train only

They wouldn't have been near a ticket office for an Advance print at home ticket would they?

Imagine I live in Wakefield and work in Leeds, as many people do. Occasionally I'll want to go for a break in London - again as many do. I know the train is quite comfortable and quick, but that it can be pricey and coaches are available very cheaply. But I have heard these announcements about making sure I've got the right ticket and am concerned about the risk that I might end up having to pay a whopping £112 they keep mentioning on the train because I don't really understand about all the different tickets and whatnot. .

Come now, less of the drama - you quite clearly stated in your OP that the £112 was a fare to London - NOT a Wakefield to Leeds ticket.



Lets face it - you as well as a lot of people on here are always complaining of how harsh the railway is when people make mistakes when travelling and now that they are being proactive about making people aware of the consequences you don't like it!!

Come and join the railway - it is apparent we really need your ideas to make it a better place where we don't penalise people for doing the wrong thing and also upset others by letting people know of the consequences for being on the wrong train. Your joined up thinking is far better than simplification ever was.

 

[island]

There's no reason for announcing the anytime price at those times other than anatomical compensation.

Of course there is. A passenger with a ticket for the wrong date, without a Railcard for their discounted ticket, or travelling beyond their booked destination will probably have to buy an Anytime fare.

When it was still East Coast and even at 21-35 at night to Leeds from Kings Cross, you got the old this ticket and that ticket is valid and FCC , Hull Trains, Grand Central etc etc tickets is not valid on this train at least twice before we set off and you can only buy a such and such ticket on the train if your using the wrong ticket, a veritable ear bashing.

Another big gripe of mine on the announcements department is this the such and such train to followed by Coach B is the quite coach in standard and Coach F (?) is the first class quiet coach, then to be followed by the catering facilities etc etc., so if I am in the quiet coach of which I have selected then why do I have to kept been bombarded with all these announcements at every station.

Just wish they would also either pipe down to just shut up and leave us in peace.

And if they don't, then the passengers who are caught out say "I joined the train 20 minutes before departure, would it have killed you to say what tickets aren't valid over the tannoy?"

Three general comments.

1. The people alluding to an anytime fare being sold to a passenger travelling on an Advance ticket on the right date and TOC but the wrong train should stop. That was changed over a year ago to be the lowest walk-up fare applicable to their journey.

2. Analogies to buses or planes where it is possible to check each passenger's ticket (and ID and whatever else) during boarding need to stop. They are not comparable until and unless a method is discovered to do the same for trains. All trains. At all stations. Until then the analogies need to be filed with the supermarket ones.

3. If the outcome of being found with an irregular ticket is paying the difference between the price of the ticket held and the price of the appropriate ticket, nobody rational will buy an appropriate ticket as doing so has a strictly worse payoff than buying the cheapest relevant ticket, on the grounds that you might get away with it. There must be some sort of disincentive in place.

 

[PaxmanValenta]

I have been on lots of Virgin Trains East Coast services recently where the pre-departure announcement has been, for want of a slightly better word hostile. It is made while sat at Leeds and usually repeated twice, although sometimes three times. It explains that the train is today subject to ticket restrictions (like well... all trains) and customers should note that (select from Off-Peak, Super Off-Peak or both) tickets [to London - arguably waaay off the truth if that's not added] are not valid and customers with Advance tickets, available as Print at Home tickets (which must have been printed, not shown on a device screen) or tickets with 'Advance' in the top left hand corner, should note that these are valid on the booked train only. There's then a warning that people should check their tickets carefully, if they are travelling on any other service they will need to buy a new full-price ticket - the Leeds - London Terminals Anytime Single fare of £112 (although this did recently go down) is mentioned. This is probably not right either as if someone is travelling off the booked train on an EC ticket and an Off-Peak ticket is valid, they would get sold that. There then follows what sounds like a dire warning to ensure that your ticket is valid or bad things will happen and if anyone has an questions about their tickets they can come and find the guard. There is one particular train guard who even says just before departure that if your ticket is not completely valid this is your last chance to get off the train!

What follows is sometimes actually just a cursory glance at the ticket or even no ticket inspection at all. So it sounds like this announcement is actually more just bluster to create fear and doubt than anything else. It sounds as if they expect passengers to have issues with their tickets which clearly the majority don't, but I'm sure it sets people worrying who would never have any issues. By pointing out that restrictions are in place on an Off-Peak train, that clearly might make people think their Off-Peak ticket is not valid.

So I put it that the customer-friendly Virgin should ditch forthwith the approach of emphasising the risks, drawbacks and costs of rail travel by needlessly pointing out bad things that they might do to you but probably can't while the train is sat in the platform! This information isn't helpful they would know it from the ticket office; it's only going to scare people most of whom will already have valid tickets. Excessive announcements also annoy people, I thought we had plenty of evidence on that now. Lastly these announcements run contrary to the sections in the new Passenger's Charter about lost / mistaken tickets.

I think anyone with learning difficulties or whose doesn't speak English overseas tourist etc would be totally confused by this announcement on the train. The ticketing system for some people is too complicated to understand.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

As it happens I'm now popping up to Newcastle by VTEC on Monday so I shall be sure to let everyone know if I find the announcement threatening. I doubt it though...

 

[Tetchytyke]

The people alluding to an anytime fare being sold to a passenger travelling on an Advance ticket on the right date and TOC but the wrong train should stop. That was changed over a year ago to be the lowest walk-up fare applicable to their journey.

Odd, as that was what the guard making the announcements on my train from Leeds on Tuesday was threatening people with...

I don't have an issue with stern announcements though. It makes people check their tickets, which is much better than not saying anything and then charging them to correct their mistake.

 

[island]

Odd, as that was what the guard making the announcements on my train from Leeds on Tuesday was threatening people with...

I can't comment on what one guard who may or may not have read the change of policy may or may not have said.

 

[wellwhatitis]

Really? Really? You think that many people are going to try to 'get away with' it consciously and lie about not knowing that this sort of announcement needs to be made?

If you start out with your viewpoint - that all of your customers are inherently dishonest and it is your job to go around checking up on them and keeping them in line then you don't really deserve to be in business. Would this approach survive in any market outside the railway industry?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---



It in itself isn't a terrible idea, but it's not wildly practical. The whole train cannot go and queue up in the DVT 5 minutes before departure. It's also not an option open to people getting on at Wakefield or Doncaster either.

As I was once informed by a lovely VT East Coast Train Guard "Train guards are not Travel Centres." - incidentally that was a demand for the previous higher than £112 fare which I should not have been being asked to pay.

Whilst there are certainly TM's and SC's out there that the Gestapo would have been proud of, I'm afraid it is true that he more special (i.e. cheap) tickets there are that are available, the larger the temptation to Mr & Mrs Dodge to purchase them inappropriately. They do so on the grounds that they know there is every chance the ticket won't be checked and they will therefore be well in pocket. They also know from experience that the worst that can happen to them if there is a ticket check is that their ticket be upgraded to the cheapest appropriate ticket for that journey. They cannot be 'anytimed' unless only an anytime ticket is valid for that journey, as they actually had a ticket, just a restricted one. They therefore can't be 'anytimed' or PF'd, only upgraded.

This is why LM is full of chancers with £18 Euston to Birmingham Mon to Thurs only Super Off peak returns travelling at all times, and £3.95 Railcard discounted Advance fares from London to Birmingham purchased for whatever train they were available for that day, regardless of the train they are actually travelling on.

Everytime a silly ticket is introduced, designed to channel 100% of revenue to the TOC, the chancers rub their hands with glee.

 

[Flamingo]

Whilst there are certainly TM's and SC's out there that the Gestapo would have been proud of, I'm afraid it is true that he more special (i.e. cheap) tickets there are that are available, the larger the temptation to Mr & Mrs Dodge to purchase them inappropriately. They do so on the grounds that they know there is every chance the ticket won't be checked and they will therefore be well in pocket. They also know from experience that the worst that can happen to them if there is a ticket check is that their ticket be upgraded to the cheapest appropriate ticket for that journey. They cannot be 'anytimed' unless only an anytime ticket is valid for that journey, as they actually had a ticket, just a restricted one. They therefore can't be 'anytimed' or PF'd, only upgraded.

This is why LM is full of chancers with £18 Euston to Birmingham Mon to Thurs only Super Off peak returns travelling at all times, and £3.95 Railcard discounted Advance fares from London to Birmingham purchased for whatever train they were available for that day, regardless of the train they are actually travelling on.

Everytime a silly ticket is introduced, designed to channel 100% of revenue to the TOC, the chancers rub their hands with glee.

How dare you impugne that all those passengers are not innocent occasional travellers who are understandably confused by the unreasonably complex ticketing system...

 

[Starmill]

Yeah, because there are no occasional travellers on our trains, and the ticketing system couldn't possibly be described as 'unreasonably complicated' - could it?

 

[wellwhatitis]

How dare you impugne that all those passengers are not innocent occasional travellers who are understandably confused by the unreasonably complex ticketing system...

I'm a drain on society aren't I? I speak as someone lucky enough to have just shifted off these hellish workings onto trains where advanced fares and hideous restrictions hardly exist.

The cattle that I speak of are probably the most savvy train travellers you will meet. They love the unreasonable complexity of the ticketing system, it is exactly what creates wonderful grey areas for them to manoeuvre into and feign withering surprise on the odd occasion they are challenged. Cue 'it was alright last week', 'Nobody told me', 'jobsworth' etc etc etc

I get the impression you are very familiar with the facial expressions and accompanied bleatings that I am referring to....

 

[Flamingo]

Yeah, because there are no occasionajl travellers on our trains, and the ticketing system couldn't possibly be described as 'unreasonably complicated' - could it?

In the same way there are no experienced fare evaders that play on the willingness of Railway staff to give the benefit of the doubt to passengers who give the appearance of having made a genuine mistake. Working the same peak-time train several days in quick succession can be quite amusing, when the same individual gives the same excuse of total ignorance resulting in a one-off mistake - for the second time in a week...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm a drain on society aren't I? I speak as someone lucky enough to have just shifted off these hellish workings onto trains where advanced fares and hideous restrictions hardly exist.

The cattle that I speak of are probably the most savvy train travellers you will meet. They love the unreasonable complexity of the ticketing system, it is exactly what creates wonderful grey areas for them to manoeuvre into and feign withering surprise on the odd occasion they are challenged. Cue 'it was alright last week', 'Nobody told me', 'jobsworth' etc etc etc

I get the impression you are very familiar with the facial expressions and accompanied bleatings that I am referring to....

Damn right. Although, I don't bother arguing any more, except for Split Tickets, which I have total zero tolerance of breaches in condition 19c

 

[wellwhatitis]

Yeah, because there are no occasional travellers on our trains, and the ticketing system couldn't possibly be described as 'unreasonably complicated' - could it?

Of course there are, and I can spot them at a million paces and deal with them politely, appropriately and satisfactorily.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I've made four Newcastle - London journeys this week (on VTEC) and heard a message similar to the one reported by starmill on each of them. The message didn't strike me in the least as 'hostile' or 'unwelcoming'. I actually encounterd 6 guards on these trips. Two of them included a very kindly, warm request to "so, please take a moment to check your tickets before we leave", one of them included the words "a very warm welcome from me, <full name>, your guard" and the usual assurances to ask any of the crew if we had any questions. Three of them struck up friendly conversations with me of their own accord. Two of them expressed concerns about passengers who don't listen to the announcments and as a consequence are over carried beyond their intended destination. One of them complained about the lack of maintenance of the stock. One of them expressed remorse at a minor misfortune. One of them held out his hand to shake mine and three asked how I was.
I would call that friendly, compassionate and welcoming.

It's interesting that two people hear (presumably) the same script, and each come away with an entirely opposite impression.

 

[Flamingo]

I suppose that if one is looking for something to take offence about, it's easy to find...

 

[ComUtoR]

...

It's interesting that two people hear (presumably) the same script, and each come away with an entirely opposite impression.

Maybe one of you is open minded and wears a bowler hat instead of a tin foil one

 

[muz379]

I hear these types of announcements a lot when travelling on TPE & Virgin West coast service . I Personally see no issues with telling passengers to check their tickets before departure thus giving them the opportunity to leave and wait for a later service if they dont have a ticket valid for that service or making sure they are aware they will have to pay extra to stay on that train . I also see no issue with warning what the possible penalties are for making a mistake so that passengers are clear where they are stand .

It seems to me sometimes the OP takes the view that the railway is in the wrong whatever they do . They are in the wrong for penalizing passengers who have made "genuine mistakes" when interpreting the complex ticketing restrictions . But then they are also wrong for trying to impart the importance of making sure you hold a valid ticket for a train you have boarded


To me it just seems proactive , like I will sometimes make announcements telling people for destination X that this is their last chance to get off the train and change before they get over carried .Or If there has been a mess up and there are two services working to two separate locations off the same platform right after each other I will make passengers clear that what the train is that they are on . It might sound a bit rude/abrupt at times but its a lot less abrupt than I am going to be if you get over carried because you have not listened or took responsibility for planning your own journey .

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The cattle that I speak of are probably the most savvy train travellers you will meet. They love the unreasonable complexity of the ticketing system, it is exactly what creates wonderful grey areas for them to manoeuvre into and feign withering surprise on the odd occasion they are challenged. Cue 'it was alright last week', 'Nobody told me', 'jobsworth' etc etc etc.

If there was to be a criticism of railforums, then I guess it would be that the number and the self-confidence of these 'lovers of complexity' has been enhanced by this forum and its activities. One recurring theme is to ridicule the word 'SIMPLE' with no apparent purpose other than to emphasise that complexity.

 

[WestCoast]

It's interesting that two people hear (presumably) the same script, and each come away with an entirely opposite impression.

An interesting subject. Some people will indeed perceive things differently though!

That happens a lot in international contexts. An example I always remember is the announcement system at Amsterdam Airport which says very direct "Dear Mr X, you are delaying the flight! Please come to X immediately, or we will proceed to offload your luggage!". Now I remember boarding a flight to the US where the passengers thought it sounded too harsh, but generally the Dutch, being stereotypically rather direct and straight-talking, find it completely appropriate.

As for the ticketing announcements, I have heard such dialogues before and see absolutely nothing wrong with them. The ticketing system is indeed complicated for many, especially those who travel infrequently on InterCity routes. I feel the same way about "London Midland tickets are not valid on this service" featuring on the announcements at Birmingham New Street, it's there to save people making a potentially expensive mistake. TOC specific tickets are certainly not the rule on the UK rail network and those less familiar with the system, I feel, appreciate such information.

 

[Flamingo]

If there was to be a criticism of railforums, then I guess it would be that the number and the self-confidence of these 'lovers of complexity' has been enhanced by this forum and its activities.

I charged up some joker a few months back, and the conversation read like a thread in the Disputes forum, with him throwing in "Permit to travel", "Condition 19C", "queue longer than the five minutes required therefore this is my first opportunity to pay" etc. it didn't matter, he had a ticket from Pad to Rdg which he had purchased 20 minutes before departure from a TVM, Reading was two stops ago, and I had walked past him twice without him stopping me (once before Reading), so he ended up buying an Anytime single from Reading to his final destination, not the three splits for various Super-off-peaks and rovers he was asking for. He was NOT happy, but the complaint he was sending in (he made a big deal of writing down my (first) name and train head-code) has not hit my mail drop yet...

 

[martynbristow]

I hear these types of announcements a lot when travelling on TPE & Virgin West coast service . I Personally see no issues with telling passengers to check their tickets before departure thus giving them the opportunity to leave and wait for a later service if they dont have a ticket valid for that service or making sure they are aware they will have to pay extra to stay on that train . I also see no issue with warning what the possible penalties are for making a mistake so that passengers are clear where they are stand .

It seems to me sometimes the OP takes the view that the railway is in the wrong whatever they do . They are in the wrong for penalizing passengers who have made "genuine mistakes" when interpreting the complex ticketing restrictions . But then they are also wrong for trying to impart the importance of making sure you hold a valid ticket for a train you have boarded


To me it just seems proactive , like I will sometimes make announcements telling people for destination X that this is their last chance to get off the train and change before they get over carried .Or If there has been a mess up and there are two services working to two separate locations off the same platform right after each other I will make passengers clear that what the train is that they are on . It might sound a bit rude/abrupt at times but its a lot less abrupt than I am going to be if you get over carried because you have not listened or took responsibility for planning your own journey .

My impression from the OP wasn't the message but it's tone. I feels it's accusing you of being wrong rather than informing you these are the rules.
The *softly softly* approach should be used unless you have explicit reasons not to.
When I get on a train I don't want some gruff aggresive message, especially if I hear it daily!

 

[Starmill]

If there was to be a criticism of railforums, then I guess it would be that the number and the self-confidence of these 'lovers of complexity' has been enhanced by this forum and its activities. One recurring theme is to ridicule the word 'SIMPLE' with no apparent purpose other than to emphasise that complexity.

If the factual evidence that the system is complex does not satisfy you, then I question the conviction with which you type anything anymore. If you'd like to join National Rail Enquiries in claiming otherwise, you're also free to join in the ridicule of the wise!

This 'lovers of complexity' stuff by contrast sounds like wibble as any evidence of it is yet to actually be presented.

 

[sheff1]

When a guard starts making announcements about tickets I usually switch off as I know my ticket is valid. But, as a result of this thread, I paid special attention on my 5 journeys on VTEC trains (including one with a crew change, so 6 guards in all) this week. All the guards made announcements broadly along the lines of that in the OP. Some were more succinct than others and some were more obviously welcoming, but none were specifically unwelcoming or hostile and none mentiioned the cost of any 'new' ticket which might need to be bought.

One announcement did surprise me, and it was nothing to do with tickets. It was along the lines of "Please do not lean out of the windows when the train is leaving the station. Anyone seen leaning out of the window will be deemed as wanting to leave the train and the departure of the train will be stopped". I have certainly never heard such an announcement before and wondered what lay behind it. After all, people have been waving out of train windows to friends/relatives seeing them off for very many years.

 

[LowLevel]

Don't be daft. Of course there are lovers of complexity. Anyone who takes advantage of split ticketing and obscure entries in the routing guide is one and I don't think anybody could doubt Dave's convictions - he is without doubt one of the most valuable contributors to these fora. It is also true that this forum promotes taking advantage as such by holding things such as fares workshops.

On the other hand, I firmly believe that the ticketing system is a bit of an over complex joke and that the one thing leads to another. The world of routings, restrictions, easements and the rest are practically unintelligible.

 

[Starmill]

Whether or not you deem it complex, I know my ticket(s) is/are always going to be valid. Surely there's a difference between that (and I guess if you don't like the fact that the forum holds Fares Workshops, either pop along to one or you know what to do!) and people like Flamingo often goes to great pains to point out are always out there swindle him by breaking the rules.

My point is it sounds like there's a huge overstatement here of the number of people who are trying to take liberties with invalid tickets, which is what leads to these announcements and Flamingo's endless complaining, in relation to the number of genuine customers. Why is it OK to go after the thieving minority (which you will never stamp out) to the detriment of everyone else?