Annual Gold Card - Multiple Trips in a day

tbwbear

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Quick Question - My wife has an annual gold card between a station in Kent and London Terminals, - Is she entitled to make as many trips a day as she likes or is she limited to just one ?


In other words - by the rules - can she go to London for work, come home and then go back again for a drink etc... later.

I know there is nothing much to stop her doing this in practice, but what do the rules say ?


Do I assume she can break her journey anywhere the train stops en route too ? or ?
 
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JonathanH

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Quick Question - My wife has an annual gold card between a station in Kent and London Terminals, - Is she entitled to make as many trips a day as she likes or is she limited to just one ?


In other words - by the rules - can she go to London for work, come home and then go back again for a drink etc... later.

I know there is nothing much to stop her doing this in practice, but what do the rules say ?


Do I assume she can break her journey anywhere the train stops en route too ? or ?
A period season ticket of any sort [1] is available for unlimited trips between the relevant destinations and for break of journey at all intermediate stations.

[1] There are some 'earlybird' tickets that restrict travel in some way.
 

JonathanH

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https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/46571.aspx is what you are looking for.

Using your Season Ticket
  • You can use your Season Ticket up to, and including, its expiry date for any number of journeys between the stations and/or within the zone(s) shown on it at any time of day. It may be used at intermediate stations, and on any permitted route, unless a route or any other restrictions are specified on the ticket. Details are available where these tickets are issued.
 

alistairlees

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Quick Question - My wife has an annual gold card between a station in Kent and London Terminals, - Is she entitled to make as many trips a day as she likes or is she limited to just one ?


In other words - by the rules - can she go to London for work, come home and then go back again for a drink etc... later.

I know there is nothing much to stop her doing this in practice, but what do the rules say ?


Do I assume she can break her journey anywhere the train stops en route too ? or ?
If you would like to say which station in Kent she has the season ticket from then I can let you know what routes (in addition to the obvious) she can use. The answer may surprise you. For instance, I used to have a season from High Brooms to London; this allows travel via Redhill and East Croydon into Victoria, as well as other routes, e.g. via Bromley South and Denmark Hill. All very useful when you need to go to those places, or meaning that only a small amount extra needs to be spent to get to (e.g.) Gatwick Airport.
 

alistairlees

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Sevenoaks
Direct route via Orpington and Lewisham (either avoiding or through) to London Bridge, Cannon St, Blackfriars, City Thameslink, Waterloo East, Charing Cross
Thameslink via Bat & Ball, Otford, Swanley, Bromley South, Beckenham Junction, Herne Hill, Elephant & Castle, Blackfriars, City Thameslink
(from Bromley South) Catford, Peckham Rye, Denmark Hill, Brixton, Victoria
(from Herne Hill) to Victoria
(from Lewisham) Nunhead to Peckham Rye

There's probably a bit I have missed off somewhere, but that should give you a good idea...
 

alistairlees

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Actually I missed off a pile of routes
Beckenham Junction, Crystal Palace, Streatham Hill, Balham, Clapham Junction then into Victoria or Waterloo#
Denmark Hill to Clapham Junction
Bromley North to Grove Park

Basically it's pretty flexible in this area.
 

Hadders

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Also bear in mind that you can start and finish short at any stations on a permitted route, i.e. there is no need to complete a full journey. So if you only need to make a short journey between two stations on a permitted route then use the season ticket. It might not work the barriers at intermediate but that doesn't mean it isn't valid.
 

tbwbear

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Thanks again for all the answers.

The reason for the original question is actually quite topical: after 2 months furlough, my wife went back to work yesterday on part time furlough.

She is working a limited number of hours each day (5 days a week) and on Fridays she will be finished by noon. (as an aside – apparently the train in to Cannon Street arriving around 8:30am yesterday had just 8 people per carriage)

I wanted to reassure her quickly that she could indeed return to London on Friday evenings to see friends (maintaining social distancing) and she could also go to Brixton (as it was on the direct line from Victoria / Bromley South / Otford / Sevenoaks).

You have helped me do that !


But the inclusion of Crystal Palace in your answers is interesting.

A few years ago we met up in London and caught a bus down to Crystal Palace. At the end of the evening we went to the station to return on the train via Beckenham Junction and Bromley South. The barrier (as suggested/ indicated above) rejected the Annual Gold Card. I had a brief discussion with the employee on the barrier but to no avail. I suggested it might be a “permitted route” but I got the impression the person didn’t actually know what that was! It didn’t really matter: my wife bought a single to Beckenham Junction and we went off home. Next time I might be a little more forceful.

Bromley North is interesting too. It actually makes perfect sense but I would never have had the confidence to try that. Maybe I will now !

PS - We went from Sevenoaks into Waterloo via the old Eurostar Junction on diversion a couple of years ago - so (tongue in cheek here) there is another route !
 

Mcr Warrior

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How is Bromley North an intermediate station between Sevenoaks and London Terminals? It's the terminus of a short branch line, isn't it?
 

alistairlees

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How is Bromley North an intermediate station between Sevenoaks and London Terminals? It's the terminus of a short branch line, isn't it?
Bromley Group to Grove Park is on map SV, which is one of the maps to consult when travelling from Sevenoaks to London.
 

tbwbear

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"In real life" it does make sense too.

If it is possible (which it is) to break a journey at Bromley South (a stop on the Sevenoaks to Blackfriars train) on the way up to London, then there is an argument for resuming the journey from Bromley North, especially if the intended London destination is London Bridge for example.

I admit it is not the first route that comes to mind though - and I get the "end of branch line" argument.
 

30907

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"In real life" it does make sense too.

If it is possible (which it is) to break a journey at Bromley South (a stop on the Sevenoaks to Blackfriars train) on the way up to London, then there is an argument for resuming the journey from Bromley North, especially if the intended London destination is London Bridge for example.

I admit it is not the first route that comes to mind though - and I get the "end of branch line" argument.
That one had never occurred to me, and I used to commute on those routes!
Without checking, Catford Bridge to Lewisham and Peckham Rye to London Bridge probably qualify (though they may not be much use!).
 

mmh

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Bromley Group to Grove Park is on map SV, which is one of the maps to consult when travelling from Sevenoaks to London.
However there is no way of going via Bromley North without doubling back, so presumably it's not a permitted route.
 

JB_B

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Bromley Group to Grove Park is on map SV, which is one of the maps to consult when travelling from Sevenoaks to London.

Unfortunately, there isn't a Bromley Routeing Point Group. Bromley North isn't a routeing point group member ( its only associated routeing point is Grove Park)

There is a Bromley South Routeing Point Group but that includes Bickley and Bromley South only.
 

alistairlees

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Unfortunately, there isn't a Bromley Routeing Point Group. Bromley North isn't a routeing point group member ( its only associated routeing point is Grove Park)

There is a Bromley South Routeing Point Group but that includes Bickley and Bromley South only.
Ooops. The perils of looking at maps late at night...
You would have to go via St Mary Cray and change there then. Or via Petts Wood.
 

JB_B

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Ooops. The perils of looking at maps late at night...
You would have to go via St Mary Cray and change there then. Or via Petts Wood.
Yes, it surprised me that Bromley North isn't a routeing point group member. ( There is a fixed link between North and South in timetable data. )
 

kieron

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There's a fixed link between Bromley South and Bromley North in the timetable, and map SV includes Sevenoaks-Otford-Swanley-Bromley South-Grove Park-Hither Green-Lewisham-New Cross-London as a valid route, Bromley North lying between Bromley South and Grove Park.

nationalrail.co.uk* doesn't think this is a valid route from Sevenoaks to a London Terminal, but does think it's valid if you're going to Farringdon.

Easement 700578 says:

"Journeys from Bromley North, Sundridge Park, Grove Park, Elmstead Woods may not travel to London Terminals via Bromley South (which is in a higher priced Travelcard zone). This negative circuitous easement applies in both directions."

The version of the easement web sites such as nationalrail.co.uk use also forbids journeys from/to London which go via both Bromley South and Bromley North. As there's nothing in the text to suggest these journeys should be restricted, this appears to be a mistake.

If this is a route tbwbear's wife would like to use (at least in part), then it may be worth sending an e-mail to Southeastern to ask if it's okay, if only for something to show rail staff who might disagree.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for these links to open correctly.
 

JB_B

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There's a fixed link between Bromley South and Bromley North in the timetable, and map SV includes Sevenoaks-Otford-Swanley-Bromley South-Grove Park-Hither Green-Lewisham-New Cross-London as a valid route, Bromley North lying between Bromley South and Grove Park.
Thanks, yes, you're right of course. The fixed link means the Bromley South Group - Grove Park link on SV covers the route via Bromley North.

And, as you say, the over-general (and hence over-restrictive) coding of negative easement 700578 ( where underlying easements 701535/6 preclude journeys from/to London Terminals via Bromley North containing Bromley South) probably explains why journey planners won't find this route. ( Also , apologies to @alistairlees !)
 

JB_B

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So Grove Park -> Bromley North only o.k. if supposedly walking to Bromley South? (Or vice-versa).

There's a permitted route from London to Sevenoaks via Grove Park>Sundridge Park>Bromley North>Bromley South. For a ticket that allows break of journey there's no need to complete (or to intend to complete) the whole journey. The OP's wife has a season so she can also switch between any of the permitted routes at any point and as often as she likes so she could effectively use the ticket as a local rover over the network of permitted routes.

The potential difficulty would be lack of staff awareness. Unfortunately, the mis-coding of the easement mentioned above will make it hard to generate an itinerary to back up the validity if challenged.
 

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