Anomoly?

[devon_metro]

Just been looking on FGWtickets

Travelling this Saturday

PGN-WEY:
Station Arr Dep Travel by Service Provider PAIGNTON 10:12 Train SOUTH WEST TRAINS BASINGSTOKE 13:54 14:50 Train SOUTH WEST TRAINS WEYMOUTH 17:04
Priced at: £27.50/£13.75 SVR

On the other hand going direct:
PGN-BSK
Is £60/£30 SVR

So whats going on there?

 

[me123]

Presumably, the cheaper ticket is valid via "any permitted route" and thus they base the price on another route, which may not be quicker.

CORE is listing many more routes that avoid Basingstoke (of course, it is out of date but I'd imagine most if not all are still valid). In this case, it's coming up with travel via Exeter as being the shortest route.

 

[paul1609]

The first example will be route salisbury the second any permitted.
Its the same for me from home to anywhere west of Reading

 

[devon_metro]

So I could buy a Saver Return to weymouth and end up in basingstoke for the day instead when Basingstoke - Paignton is over twice the price?

Seems a bit silly.

 

[dan_atki]

Looking at Avantix Traveller 95, it shows there are 3 routes for PGN-WEY and 2 for PGN-BSK:

(There is no Route: ANY PERMITTED for either journey)

PGN-WEY:
Route: THORNFRD HONITON - SVR: £26.00
Route: YEOVIL WESTBURY - SVR: £30.00
Route: SALISBURY - SVR: £45.00

PGN-BSK
Route: SALISBURY - SVR: £36.00
Route: NOT LONDON - SVR: £61.00

Comparing like for like (i.e. Route: SALISBURY) it doesn't appear as there is an anomaly after all so maybe the database is giving out the more expensive fare for the PGN-BSK but not the cheaper.

 

[devon_metro]

I'm still not convicned that a PGN-WEY SVR is valid via BSK?

Journey planner suggests it is!

 

[me123]

The routeing guide has it as a valid route: CE+WX are the relevent maps. If anyone tries to stop you on such a "questionable" route (which has happened to me*) explain this to them and they have to let you travel. IIRC, they should have the guide on them anyway.

*(EDB-CBC, the guard wondered why I was on the EDB-Dunblane service. He quickly accepted it was a valid route)

 

[yorkie]

The RG is riddled with anomalies, such as Carlisle-Newcastle being valid via York and Leeds. It comes as no surprise. Use it to your advantage

 

[devon_metro]

I might do

Will take a screenshot of FGWtickets though as i'm sure the guard will be quick to question it!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Makes it possible to do Paignton - London Waterloo for:

under £45 and also allows me to go route Weymouth. Bargain

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The RG is riddled with anomalies, such as Carlisle-Newcastle being valid via York and Leeds. It comes as no surprise. Use it to your advantage

The Carlisle-Newcastle ticket is not valid via York/Leeds as the ticket between Preston and Leeds is more than the cost of the Carlisle-Newcastle ticket, hence not a valid route.


NOTE: A ticket bought for a journey for which there is a more expensive ticket over one leg of the journey is invalid, unless you are on the shortest route between the origin and destination or on a direct service.

 

[yorkie]

The Carlisle-Newcastle ticket is not valid via York/Leeds as the ticket between Preston and Leeds is more than the cost of the Carlisle-Newcastle ticket, hence not a valid route.

Can you explain how that works, citing references to the RG please?

For the correct answer, see http://railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=16619

NOTE: A ticket bought for a journey for which there is a more expensive ticket over one leg of the journey is invalid, unless you are on the shortest route between the origin and destination or on a direct service.

Where is that quoted from?! or is it made up

 

[Max]

The Carlisle-Newcastle ticket is not valid via York/Leeds as the ticket between Preston and Leeds is more than the cost of the Carlisle-Newcastle ticket, hence not a valid route.

NOTE: A ticket bought for a journey for which there is a more expensive ticket over one leg of the journey is invalid, unless you are on the shortest route between the origin and destination or on a direct service.

Sounds very fishy to me - do you work for First group?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Can you explain how that works, citing references to the RG please?

NATIONAL ROUTING GUIDE SECTION F PAGE F5

"4) Apply the rule that "the component leg of a journey must not be greater than the fare of the overall journey"
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Sounds very fishy to me - do you work for First group?

Erm..... No don't ever insult me again

Oh, for information the route via Settle is out too.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Where is that quoted from?! or is it made up

It is not a direct quote, however this is:

NATIONAL ROUTEING GUIDE SECTION A PAGE A3/A4

"Ensuring that the routeing points are appropriate

..... If you are unsure whether a particular routeing point for the origin staion is correct one compare the fare from that routing point to the destination with that of the through journey - It is an appropriate routeing point only if the that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station.

Follow the same procedure if you are not certain that a particular routeing point for the destination station is the correct one. Compare the fare from that routing point to the origin with that of the through journey - It is an appropriate routeing point only if the that fare is the same or lower than the fare for the throughout journey from the origin station to the destination station."

Before you go spouting about routes and fares, do your homework!

 

[yorkie]

Before you go spouting about routes and fares, do your homework!

No, before you go spouting about routes and fares, do your homework

I see you are looking at the fares rule to determine if routeing points are appropriate.

Well, I've got news for you. Both Carlisle and Newcastle are routeing points!!!

So the comparison can't be made! Basically you are saying Newcastle is not an appropriate routeing point for Newcastle to Carlisle because the fare from Newcastle to Carlisle is not the same or lower as the fare from Newcastle to Carlisle. (and vice-versa)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

No, before you go spouting about routes and fares, do your homework

I see you are looking at the fares rule to determine if routeing points are appropriate.

Well, I've got news for you. Both Carlisle and Newcastle are routeing points!!!

So the comparison can't be made! Basically you are saying Newcastle is not an appropriate routeing point for Newcastle to Carlisle because the fare from Newcastle to Carlisle is not the same or lower as the fare from Newcastle to Carlisle. (and vice-versa)

If they are both routeing points the they can use DIRECT SERVICES, THE SHORTEST ROUTE or SERVICES ALONG THE APPROPRIATE ROUTEING MAP (LM).

HE SHOOTS, HE SCORES!

 

[me123]

Sorry, but Yorkie is correct here.

Mapped routes are:-

* GN
* MM+TP
* MM+WY+LY+NE
* NC+MH+TP
* NE+LY+WY+GM+NW

Which makes it an incredibly flexible ticket.

This is from the routeing guide which shows that all routes Carlisle to Newcastle on these maps (or combination thereof) are valid. This is still the case.

And, BTW, map LM is the WCML, with no mention of Newcastle. At least get your maps right. I think you mean map GN.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

This is from the routeing guide which shows that all routes Carlisle to Newcastle on these maps (or combination thereof) are valid. This is still the case.

And, BTW, map LM is the WCML, with no mention of Newcastle. At least get your maps right. I think you mean map GN.

Okay, irrespective of whichever map it is, I was going off the copy at the local station, there is only one valid route, as stated above, via Hexham

The map LM in that copy is WCML but ALSO shows the Carlisle-Newcastle route.

Newcastle is a joining point for maps LM and ER in that copy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
The online Routeing guide is a simplified version of the station copy and maps therefore vary but the rules still apply.

The lower or same fare rule can be found in the instructions on how to use it.

 

[yorkie]

If they are both routeing points the they can use DIRECT SERVICES, THE SHORTEST ROUTE or SERVICES ALONG THE APPROPRIATE ROUTEING MAP (LM).

Look again at the list of appropriate maps (See above).

HE SHOOTS, HE SCORES!

an own goal!

The online Routeing guide is a simplified version of the station copy and maps therefore vary but the rules still apply.

Yes, but read the rules, and it is quite clear.

The lower or same fare rule can be found in the instructions on how to use it.

Yes, so please read it. It clearly states that the fares rule applies to choosing routeing points. We do NOT need to choose routeing points for Newcastle to Carlisle, therefore the fares rule is not applicable.

The fare check is in Step 4.

See

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/pdf_docs/sectionf.pdf

Look at example 3, London - Huddersfield.

Step 4: It is unnecessary to discover if the routeing points are appropriate because both stations are routeing points and there is no choice.​

In the case of Carlisle-Newcastle, there is no choice, no fare rule applies. The RPs are set. The maps that can be used are clearly stated, and if you follow the maps it is clearly valid via York.​

I wonder if you used to work for EMT as their Retail Training Manager is clueless about the RG and has made the same mistake as you. It's a mistake that can be made if you don't read it thoroughly.​

http://groups.google.com/group/uk.railway/msg/e67b5db817126f3f ( Peter Masson knows what he is talking about).​

In fact, why don't you go on uk.railway and ask the group if they think you're right? Clive Feather is the biggest routeing guide expert on there, see what he says if you don't believe me.​

 

[me123]

Okay, irrespective of whichever map it is, I was going off the copy at the local station, there is only one valid route, as stated above, via Hexham

Apologies. I was wondering if you were using a different guide/edition as that particular map appered useless on it's own from the online version.

Out of curiosity, do you work on the railways or, like myself, just an enthusiast?

 

[David]

Based on his profile (viewable via the admincp), then he does work for a TOC. I'll not say who he is, or which one though, as he may want to keep that private.

 

[Ascot]

Hairyhandedfool, looking at previous posts, please tell us the difference between a STATION COPY and the online version. Is someone telling lies and "fakeing guide" as everything posted contradicts a railway member within the North East area and also the routeing guide it self? What TOC made your simplified Routeing guide which covers Swindon AND Carlisle as ATOC didn't as this goes what you are saying?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

The station copy is the one produced in '96' for the use of stations to identify the routes over which ther tickets are valid.

In theory, the only difference between station copy and Online copy is the maps.

However, the difference in the maps seems to produce new routeings which are not in the station copy.

The only route in the station copy is the direct service.

This is the copy I have best access to.

That said, the ticket machine I have, which uses the routeing guide to produce valid routes for tickets, does not list Leeds as a valid route, or for that matter via Carstairs/Edinburgh.

Oh.... yes I work for a TOC and have done for over 10 years

 

[Ascot]

So going on what you are saying, you are using a TOC specific one made in 96 that does exactly what the routeing guide doesn't do, only give a route that is common sence on a map. Which also leads to why you claim to be the God of routeing guide and a "professional proffesional" at such to ask when every time you post something or another it is completely different. You might work on the railway and you might of driven trains but it is clear you are not the first one to ask for routeing advice.

Which ticket machine do you have then? Not an official one I assume?

You can now print off whatever parts you like now in pdf format. Here are the links for you.

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/pdf_docs/sectionb.pdf Station index

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/pdf_docs/sectionc.pdf Routes

http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/pdf_docs/sectiond.pdf Maps

And there's the others but there on the same site as well

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Which ticket machine do you have then? Not an official one I assume?....

Its called Fastis and it is used by many ticket offices up and down the country.

 

[Ascot]

Its called Fastis and it is used by many ticket offices up and down the country.

So a 2005 machine which Chiltern (same as Northern) use would come up to the office staff as a "Not London" if I was to ask for a Birmingham to Kemble. And if i was to ask for a Carlisle to Newcastle it will come up with not via Leeds?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

So a 2005 machine which Chiltern (same as Northern) use would come up to the office staff as a "Not London" if I was to ask for a Birmingham to Kemble. And if i was to ask for a Carlisle to Newcastle it will come up with not via Leeds?

If you insert Carlisle to Newcastle (any ticket) and set the route as Via Leeds its says "Illegal Routeing" for the 'any permitted' ticket on the journeys via Leeds.

I think, in reality, crossing threads is not wise, but to answer your question, if you similarly type Birmingham to Kemble and set the route London it brings the same result.

Now if you are trying to tell me that both the routeing guide found at stations and the ticket machine are both wrong because an internet page says so, then I don't think we will ever agree.

EDIT: According to National rail both routes would require 2 tickets each.

 

[Ascot]

If you insert Carlisle to Newcastle (any ticket) and set the route as Via Leeds its says "Illegal Routeing" for the 'any permitted' ticket on the journeys via Leeds.

Because the only route IS Any Permitted. Any Permitted is defined by the routeing guide which you are saying is wrong.

I think, in reality, crossing threads is not wise, but to answer your question, if you similarly type Birmingham to Kemble and set the route London it brings the same result.

As above.

Now if you are trying to tell me that both the routeing guide found at stations and the ticket machine are both wrong because an internet page says so, then I don't think we will ever agree.

If you can show evidence to this then please post it here as compared to the National Routeing guide and also a Copy at Marston Green Station

EDIT: According to National rail both routes would require 2 tickets each.

According to ATOC Any Permitted is defined as the Routeing Guide.

 

[me123]

If you insert Carlisle to Newcastle (any ticket) and set the route as Via Leeds its says "Illegal Routeing" for the 'any permitted' ticket on the journeys via Leeds.

thetrainline is willing to sell you a ticket via Leeds for the same price as one via Hexham (ie £11.60 single). I know it's not the most reliable thing in the world, but surely if they're doing it it must be valid. The ticket would have the times of the services on it anyway if you were to get it delivered to your door, so the proof would be on the ticket.

 

[yorkie]

thetrainline is willing to sell you a ticket via Leeds for the same price as one via Hexham (ie £11.60 single). I know it's not the most reliable thing in the world, but surely if they're doing it it must be valid. The ticket would have the times of the services on it anyway if you were to get it delivered to your door, so the proof would be on the ticket.

yes, thetrainline is correct, it is valid via Leeds.

Now, in response to hairyhandedfool...

in the topic about Carlisle-Newcastle, I did state from the outset that someone (who has since revealed himself to be Squeaky from this forum) has recieved a letter from Northern accepting that it is a valid route, but that they are going to get the RG changed.

I suggest a forum meet where we all go via Leeds on such a ticket, but we'd need to be quick before they change it

A document from 1996 has no relevance in 2008. The current RG is on the internet and I find the statement "Now if you are trying to tell me that both the routeing guide found at stations and the ticket machine are both wrong because an internet page says so, then I don't think we will ever agree." very baffling. Why would a 12 year old copy of the RG be any more valid than the current RG online? The online version is constantly updated. You need to update yours!

Also don't try to say Fastis defines which routes are valid or not. It doesn't. Only the RG defines permitted routes. Thetrainline, Fastis, etc are programmed using the RG, and mistakes are sometimes made, and they may not be as up to date.

The RG is the only authority on permitted routes and it is updated constantly on the internet.

Why are these concepts so difficult to grasp?

 

[dan_atki]

there is only one valid route, as stated above, via Hexham

The ticket for Carlisle to Newcastle is routed 'Any Permitted':

HOW TO DETERMINE PERMITTED ROUTES

Where the timetable offers journey opportunities over a longer route which is not covered by a through train service, the alternative options are included in the Routeing Guide. This may offer the customer a choice of routes for the same overall journey. If a choice of routes is available and the fare for the journey is described as "Any Permitted" route or is unrouted, you are free to choose any of the routes listed in the Guide. Where the fare specifies a particular route, you may choose only those routes listed in the Guide which pass through the station shown in the route description. The Routeing Guide may have to be used to find out how to reach the station shown in the route description. Where there are other permitted routes, these may also be used for the same journey provided the same or a lower fare applies.

From the Routeing Guide, the available mapped routes are:
(On maps, from example 2 step 7 in http://www.atoc.org/rsp/_downloads/Routeing_Guide/pdf_docs/sectionf.pdf if travel between the stations on each map is shown as having 2 branches then either is valid provided it does not double back)

- via Hexham (map GN)
- via Leeds and York (maps MM and TP)
- via Leeds, Selby, and York (maps MM, WY, LY, and NE)
- via Warrington, (Runcorn,) Crewe, Stoke-on-Trent, Stockport, Manchester, Leeds, (Selby,) and York (maps NC, MH, and TP)
- via Preston, (Wigan,) Bolton, Manchester, Huddersfield, Leeds, (Selby), and York (maps NW, GM, WY, LY, NE - reverse of that shown in the RG, which is permitted provided they are used in the exact reverse order per page F8 in the above link).
- via Preston, (Wigan,) Bolton, Manchester, Halifax, (Hellifield), Leeds, (Selby), and York (maps NW, GM, WY, LY, NE)

As yorkie has said before, an EXTREMELY flexible ticket.

Per example 3 (step 4) in section F, the fare check rule does NOT apply to this situation

Step 4: It is unnecessary to discover if the routeing points are appropriate because both stations are routeing points and there is no choice.

The only query you can have about fares in such situations is when there are two ticket types available (e.g. 'Any Permitted' and 'via xxx'). If the ticket via xxx costs more than the 'Any Permitted' then you cannot travel through xxx on your journey.

As only the 'Any Permitted' fare exists here then all routes are valid on this ticket.

All info taken from the online Routeing Guide which, as it tells me when I open it, was last updated November 2007.