Another CIV/UKBA Query

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dvboy

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Excuse me for creating a new thread however this relates to a different journey to the one I talked about yesterday, although that thread did veer off in the direction of border controls.

I am travelling to Lille and back this weekend and on the return journey I have a 46 minute St Pancras - Euston connection. The London-Birmingham ticket is an Advance ticket from "Lndon Estar CIV".

I have today received the following email from Eurostar:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Journeys from Brussels to the UK: 28 February – 7 March

For your trip from Brussels, please allow an extra 30 minutes for any onward connections you need to make in the UK.

The UK Border Agency will be carrying out additional checks on arrival in the UK. There may be a short wait before you can proceed to any onward travel, so please bear this in mind when making any onward travel plans.


Yours faithfully,

Marc Noaro
Services and People Director
If I am held up by UKBA (rather than a late Eurostar arrival) at St Pancras and miss my train from Euston, am still I covered to get the next train?

I have tweeted Eurostar and VirginTrains and neither have replied yet.
 
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MarkyMarkD

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I can't see how it will not be accepted as a valid reason - if you have allowed the correct transfer time between Eurostar and Euston, that should be sufficient even if other factors cause you to be delayed between the two.
 

wintonian

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This is an interesting question to which I can provide no answer.

However the CIV convention may be of use and by rights this sort of eventually should be allowed for. You can read it here; http://www.otif.org/index.php?id=143&L=2

As I am lying in bed in my hotel at the moment I have not looked through it.

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tony_mac

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It doesn't meet the minimum connection time for Eurostar to Euston given in the National timetable.

In practice, I doubt it will be a problem.
 

John @ home

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If I am held up by UKBA (rather than a late Eurostar arrival) at St Pancras and miss my train from Euston, am still I covered to get the next train?
In my opinion, yes. But I would print and carry the travel itinerary so I could show that I was attempting to travel in accordance with it.

For future bookings, I would allow the 73 minutes specified in the Introduction to the National Rail Timetable.
 

dvboy

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The 46 connection time was offered by Eurostar at the time of booking, I see no reason wjy I should question that at the time as Eurostar only advise extra time on departure, not arrival.
 

dvboy

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See the thread on 'International Transport':

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=60629
I've read that thread, it doesn't really answer my question though, it's just a debate over border controls which I knew about already. :|

VirginTrains have tweeted me back to say if I am delayed I should ask Eurostar to endorse my ticket. This seems to comply with the rules:

Title II
Article 11
Cancellation and late running of trains. Missed connections
The carrier must, where necessary, certify on the ticket that the train has been cancelled or the
connection missed.
however...

Chapter II
Liability in case of Failure to Keep to the Timetable
Article 32
Liability in case of cancellation, late running of trains or missed connections
§ 1 The carrier shall be liable to the passenger for loss or damage resulting from the fact
that, by reason of cancellation, the late running of a train or a missed connection, his
journey cannot be continued the same day, or that a continuation of the journey the
same day could not reasonably be required because of given circumstances. The
damages shall comprise the reasonable costs of accommodation as well as the
reasonable costs occasioned by having to notify persons expecting the passenger.
§ 2 The carrier shall be relieved of this liability, when the cancellation, late running or
missed connection is attributable to one of the following causes :
a) circumstances not connected with the operation of the railway which the
carrier, in spite of having taken the care required in the particular
circumstances of the case, could not avoid and the consequences of which he
was unable to prevent,
b) fault on the part of the passenger or
c) the behaviour of a third party which the carrier, in spite of having taken the
care required in the particular circumstances of the case, could not avoid and
the consequences of which he was unable to prevent; another undertaking
using the same railway infrastructure shall not be considered as a third party;
the right of recourse shall not be affected.
§ 3 National law shall determine whether and to what extent the carrier must pay
damages for harm other than that provided for in § 1. This provision shall be without
prejudice to Article 44.
...could UKBA be considered a third party in 2c above?

For reference:
Article 44
Compensation for delay
§ 1 In case of delay in loading for a reason attributable to the carrier or delay in delivery
of a vehicle, the carrier must, if the person entitled proves that loss or damage has
been suffered thereby, pay compensation not exceeding the amount of the carriage
charge.
§ 2 If, in case of delay in loading for a reason attributable to the carrier, the person
entitled elects not to proceed with the contract of carriage, the carriage charge shall
be refunded to him. In addition the person entitled may, if he proves that loss or
damage has been suffered as a result of the delay, claim compensation not exceeding
the carriage charge.
 
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island

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This probably all follows from the UKBA being threatened with arrest by Belgian police for checking people's passports in Brussels if they don't believe they're going to get off in Lille.
 

dvboy

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This probably all follows from the UKBA being threatened with arrest by Belgian police for checking people's passports in Brussels if they don't believe they're going to get off in Lille.
As i posted above, I know why it is happening, but I want to know if CIV covers me if it means I miss my connection at Euston.
 

wintonian

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I don't believe article 11 applies as UKBA is not either a carrier or the carrier so have no authority there to endorse a ticket, however if a TOC wish to except such an endorsement then they of course are able to do so and IMO should.

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dvboy

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I don't believe article 11 applies as UKBA is not either a carrier or the carrier so have no authority there to endorse a ticket, however if a TOC wish to except such an endorsement then they of course are able to do so and IMO should.

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Eurostar could endorse it though?
 

wintonian

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True, however article 11 begins with the statement; "Cancellation and late running of trains."

This perhaps could be seen in the same light as a subtitle, but I am no expert in legal wording so that is just my interpretation.
 

island

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As far as I remember the Interpretation Act says that subtitles should be considered as for convenience only.
 

wintonian

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I believe that these circumstances could be covered under missed 'connections' which is a somewhat broader term which I feel (having looked again) is meant to be included in article 11.


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