Another coach crash!

[richw]

Daytime Running Lights are required by EU law on all new cars from Feb 2011 and HGVs/PCVs from August 2012.

Good although is it new models? Mrs has a Pug 107 brand new January 2012 and that doesnt have them, dont like the fairy light style ones, prefer the normal headlights on all time,

 

[talltim]

Vehicle was not in Stagecoach colours per se, but in an all over vinyl wrap advertising Laurel and Hardy.
Only Stagecoach logos are above the door/ drivers cab and are impossible to remove without damaging the wrap, so would imagine Stagecoach will let it slide...

Dunno, I thought it was a Stagecoach bus from a shot of the roof, which is still in Stagecoach colours

 

[richw]

Dunno, I thought it was a Stagecoach bus from a shot of the roof, which is still in Stagecoach colours

no it was a privately owned bus that stagecoach sold last year i believe. was based in or around morecombe with stagecoach i believe from various pictures online in stagecoach operation all being taken in morecombe that i have found.
My understanding it belongs to the fruit picking group that it was transporting.

 

[mbonwick]

Good although is it new models? Mrs has a Pug 107 brand new January 2012 and that doesnt have them, dont like the fairy light style ones, prefer the normal headlights on all time,

Having looked at the wording of the directive it says "all new types of vehicle" so I would interprest this as meaning older models are OK without until the range is given a facelift, at which point they will have to comply.

no it was a privately owned bus that stagecoach sold last year i believe. was based in or around morecombe with stagecoach i believe from various pictures online in stagecoach operation all being taken in morecombe that i have found.
My understanding it belongs to the fruit picking group that it was transporting.

20780 was based at Barrow depot. Most pictures are of it at the 2009 Morecambe Open Day, which it attended as a celebrity because of its vinyls. It was withdrawn from Barrow in October 2010 and stored at Morecambe pending sale. It was sold to Carlton, Barnsley (breakers) via Fleetlink in February 2010. From there it appears to have been sold to the fruit picking firm to transport workers around.

 

[90019]

I think as a nation we've just forgotten what fog lamps are for. Wasn't exactly busy this morning on my way to work but at least 10 drivers didn't have their fog lights on, 5 had no lights on and 1 flashed his lights at me to turn my fog lights off *face palm*

OTOH, there were plenty of people here with their foglights on when visibility was nowhere near bad enough to require them.

 

[richw]

fog lights shouldnt be used if following another vehicle within visibility i read somewhere the other day, and should be turned off when heading towards oncoming traffic. Pretty much should be used in similar fashion to high beam headlights, but in fog!

 

[mbonwick]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17499223

Fog lights not on, but hazards were it seems. Poor visibility due to fog.

 

[jon0844]

I must say that the BBC didn't make things very clear, which in turn made it seem odd that the bus/coach driver had been arrested for having been rear-ended.

On some of the reports, I'm pretty sure they didn't make it clear the bus wasn't on the hard shoulder due to roadworks. Even on the website early on, it mentioned roadworks but not the significance (as in the hard shoulder was closed).

Now, there have been many accidents involving vehicles on the hard shoulder so perhaps in the 10 minutes or so, everyone should have been told to get off and stand clear? Given the fog, I'm surprised anyone onboard didn't try to get off by themselves (it's a lot easier on a coach than getting off a train and people still try to get off a train!).

I've noticed the BBC (online) has also started to run lots of stories with poor grammar and spelling mistakes. Have they lost all of their sub-editors recently or are they just employing people with poor skills?

 

[GearJammer]

Report i read said that eye witnesses prior to the crash said that the lights on the bus were on but very dim and hard to see, i would guess looking at the pictures that the truck was'nt going overly fast, its a modern Volvo FH if fully loaded weighing 44 tonnes, and even if it was empty it would probaby still be weighing in at 15-17 tonnes, its hit what is basically an old bus which i doubt had much crash worthiness to its name, i think the bus got off quite lightly all things considered and we should be thankfull theres no more fatalities.
Id be rather inclined to guess that the truck had already slowed due to the fog, if the driver of the truck had seen the lights on the bus and they were dim he might have thought the bus was in fact further away and moving and not in fact stationary.
Also at that time of day i should imagine the drivers of both vehicles might have been a bit tired, while the bus driver was arrested im sure at a future date the truck driver will have a few questions to answer, but lets hope that he makes a full recovery to be able to say what happened.

 

[Jonny]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17497711

Saddened to hear this news.

This is the third serious coach crash this year which has involved loss of life. What is going on? On another forum I'm told that statistically coach travel is safer than train travel?! Is it really?

For speeds of above 60 mph coaches aren't safer, and that's barely the point at which point-to-point can compete with door-to-door outside major urban areas. In fact, to be competitive with road transport, the railway needs to aim for 100mph peak speed as the minimum standard on every line. After all, this is a rail forum

In fact the only reason coaches appear "safe" in statistical terms is that they don't often crash into other coaches or heavy goods vehicles. Compare that to what trains crash into, it is a bad comparison.

 

[Schnellzug]

For speeds of above 60 mph coaches aren't safer, and that's barely the point at which point-to-point can compete with door-to-door outside major urban areas. In fact, to be competitive with road transport, the railway needs to aim for 100mph peak speed as the minimum standard on every line. After all, this is a rail forum .

So the fact that the vast majority of bus mileage takes place at under 60 mph means that actually the stastistics are misleading? Isn't arguing that For speeds of above 60 mph coaches aren't safer actually misleading, seeing that accidents above that speed are very very rare indeed?

 

[richw]

I must say that the BBC didn't make things very clear, which in turn made it seem odd that the bus/coach driver had been arrested for having been rear-ended.

On some of the reports, I'm pretty sure they didn't make it clear the bus wasn't on the hard shoulder due to roadworks. Even on the website early on, it mentioned roadworks but not the significance (as in the hard shoulder was closed).

Now, there have been many accidents involving vehicles on the hard shoulder so perhaps in the 10 minutes or so, everyone should have been told to get off and stand clear? Given the fog, I'm surprised anyone onboard didn't try to get off by themselves (it's a lot easier on a coach than getting off a train and people still try to get off a train!).

I've noticed the BBC (online) has also started to run lots of stories with poor grammar and spelling mistakes. Have they lost all of their sub-editors recently or are they just employing people with poor skills?

the coach was on hardshoulder according to other sources, lane 3 was closed according to several sources, and the hardshoulder was being used as lane 1. Unsure of the accuracy of those sources, but have previously been mentioned in this thread.

So the fact that the vast majority of bus mileage takes place at under 60 mph means that actually the stastistics are misleading? Isn't arguing that For speeds of above 60 mph coaches aren't safer actually misleading, seeing that accidents above that speed are very very rare indeed?

Buses in Europe including UK are limited to 100 kmh, is this not lower than 60?, and the truck that hit the bus would of been electronically limited to 57mph,


Sent from my HTC Sensation Z710e using Tapatalk

 

[Schnellzug]

Buses in Europe including UK are limited to 100 kmh, is this not lower than 60?, and the truck that hit the bus would of been electronically limited to 57mph,

100 km /h is 62 mph, so the issue of whether or not it's safer or not over 60 is largely academic, I'd say.

 

[pemma]

Coach style seats and lap belts were fitted - look at the picture of it at the SCNW Open day a few years ago (linked above)

The police have said that seat belts were not fitted to the vehicle.

I must say that the BBC didn't make things very clear, which in turn made it seem odd that the bus/coach driver had been arrested for having been rear-ended.

It seems another road user told the police of the broken down bus/coach not the driver or the operator, which may be why the driver has been arrested.

 

[Schnellzug]

It doesn't seem to be a regular bus company, but it was one of the fruit pickers (i.e. Eastern European immigrants paid a pittance) specials. Sounds to me as if there might be some loopholes in the licensing regulations there that someone might want to look at.

 

[richw]

It doesn't seem to be a regular bus company, but it was one of the fruit pickers (i.e. Eastern European immigrants paid a pittance) specials. Sounds to me as if there might be some loopholes in the licensing regulations there that someone might want to look at.

would the community bus rules cover this, if the operator can show they are providing a service for the workers for free, and the driver isnt paid for the driving time? If so a psv licence isnt required.

 

[pemma]

It doesn't seem to be a regular bus company, but it was one of the fruit pickers (i.e. Eastern European immigrants paid a pittance) specials.

One of the passengers who was interviewed by the media was of Asian origin and spoke English so it was full of Eastern Europeans who can't speak English even though some of them may have fitted that category.

 

[BestWestern]

What this incident does demonstrate is the fatal flaw in the ludicrous strategy, which is becoming increasingly common on our M-Ways, of using the hard shoulder as a running lane. I have to say I find it beyond belief that the highways authorities are so concerned with 'traffic flow' that they think it preferable to leave anybody who breaks down or has to stop for any reason to take their chances in three or four lanes of 70 mph+ traffic. It was only a matter of time before this sheer stupidity led to a serious accident. Had the hard shoulder been available as a refuge area, as it should have been, there would have been no problem, let alone a fatal collision. I'd like to see the driver and victim's solicitors get the Highways Agency in court for gross negligence quite honestly :roll:

As for the Driver's actions, I agree that it would have been prudent to remove passengers from the vehicle, however that in itself doesn't constitute dangerous driving. If it transpires that the bus was in fact in lane one rather than the hard shoulder, then the driver was absolutely correct not to move anybody anywhere. Reports seem to differ on this. Fog lamps should have been in use of course, but in all honesty if conditions were that bad they would have made little difference. The lights fitted to a vehicle of that age would not have been overly bright, and the vehicle itself would have been as good as invisible, being as it was all over white. The hazard lamps would also have offered little protection. The best hope would have been that any approaching drivers would have heeded the advice we are told was displayed on the matrix boards, which I would presume were offering a "Stationary vehicle in carriageway" message or somesuch. Whether the trucker was proceeding with sufficient caution will be looked at in some detail I would imagine. Sadly, motorways and fog will never mix :cry:

 

[pemma]

Nope but usually when Stagecoach vehicles are advertised for sale it is stated that the new owner must repaint the vehicle out of Stagecoach colours and remove all logos. I suspect the dealer will be getting an earful from Stagecoach for not ensuring this was done..

The bus obviously had Stagecoach branding on it: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ad-horror-smash-lorry-collides-coach-fog.html

It even appears to have the Stagecoach logo above the door.

But on the updated BBC News Article this looks to have been Photoshopped out:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17504353

I wish Stagecoach weren't allowed to run buses in non-Stagecoach liveries and trading names. It would certainly stop the public thinking that they are travelling on a local operators bus when they are in fact travelling on a Stagecoach run company, who are trying to get a bigger market share or push out the competition.

 

[starrymarkb]

What this incident does seem to demonstrate is the ludicrous strategy which is becoming increasingly common on our M-Ways, of using the hard shoulder as a lane. I have to say I find it beyond belief that the highways authorities are so concerned with 'traffic flow' that they think it preferable to leave anybody who breaks down or has to stop for any reason to take their chances amongst three or four lanes of 70 mph+ traffic. It was only a matter of time before this sheer stupidity led to a serious accident. Had the hard shoulder been available as a refuge area, as it should be, there would have been no problem, let alone a fatal collision. I'd like to see the driver and victim's solicitors get the Highways Agency in court for gross negligence quite honestly :roll:

It always has been common in roadworks, it used to be the case that traffic would be reduced to 2 lanes through contraflows with 4 lanes of traffic using the 3 lanes and Hard shoulder always under a reduced speed limit (in this case 40mph with average camera's enforcing) - also most roadworks operate a free recovery service with breakdown trucks on standby close by (probably in the services) in order to get vehicles to safety as quickly as possible. I'm not sure what the scramble time is though.

 

[BestWestern]

It always has been common in roadworks, it used to be the case that traffic would be reduced to 2 lanes through contraflows with 4 lanes of traffic using the 3 lanes and Hard shoulder always under a reduced speed limit (in this case 40mph with average camera's enforcing) - also most roadworks operate a free recovery service with breakdown trucks on standby close by (probably in the services) in order to get vehicles to safety as quickly as possible. I'm not sure what the scramble time is though.

Not so bad if everybody is doing 30 or 40 under average speed cams on a clear day, but absolutely lethal when somebody comes to a grinding halt in thick fog with no visibility.

 

[VTPreston_Tez]

I was on a coach at the time heading to London, all my family thought I was involved in the crash and there were signs littered on the M6 all the way from Preston to Birmingham. (Thankfully for me it was on the M5 and my school took the M40 for Wembley)
Sorry to hear about such a loss of life.

 

[anthony263]

An update on BBC news says the lorry driver has died

 

[richw]

RIP Lorry driver, Fowler Welch the truck owner are contracted by Tesco, and also Tulip for their deliverys.

 

[90019]

Buses in Europe including UK are limited to 100 kmh, is this not lower than 60?, and the truck that hit the bus would of been electronically limited to 57mph,

Buses are limited to 62mph (100kph), and trucks are limited to 56mph (90kph).

 

[mbonwick]

I wish Stagecoach weren't allowed to run buses in non-Stagecoach liveries and trading names. It would certainly stop the public thinking that they are travelling on a local operators bus when they are in fact travelling on a Stagecoach run company, who are trying to get a bigger market share or push out the competition.

Get down off your high horse! I would love to know where Stagecoach operate a good number of vehicles in a 'special/local' livery?

There are a few examples around the country in special heritage livery, e.g. 14245 in CMS (http://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/4649910579/), but surely this should be commended?!

There are more buses in all over adverts; in actual fact the one on ex-20780 was requested and paid for by Barrow Council. Why should Stagecoach pass up an opportunity to generate a little more money from advertising?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

, its hit what is basically an old bus which i doubt had much crash worthiness to its name, i think the bus got off quite lightly all things considered and we should be thankfull theres no more fatalities.

There's a lot more structure in a B10M than you think! The problem for the truck driver (as the pictures show), is where it is...
The structure at floor level has done what it is supposed to do and crumpled up as far as the rear axle. The problem is that there's also a lot of strong structural bits around the roof line - as you will be able to see, this has not crumpled and punched through the truck's windscreen.

I actually think the outcome may have been worse if this had been a newer, more lightweight bus.

 

[anthony263]

There's a lot more structure in a B10M than you think! The problem for the truck driver (as the pictures show), is where it is...
The structure at floor level has done what it is supposed to do and crumpled up as far as the rear axle. The problem is that there's also a lot of strong structural bits around the roof line - as you will be able to see, this has not crumpled and punched through the truck's windscreen.

I actually think the outcome may have been worse if this had been a newer, more lightweight bus.

I do agree the Alexander PS bodywork is realy tough and has shown it in this crash.

We are sad seeing these leaving Aberdare being replaced by new low floor scania's however some have gone to a local operators for school's.

And if I get my way I will be buying 1 of them more than likely the final alexander ps bodied Volvo B10M built

 

[185]

I've a funny feeling that as you approach Frankley services on the southbound, there are sections with no hard shoulder approaching overbridges (ie - goes straight from lane 1 to the grass verge) so to be fair, if the bus had lost throttle it's stopped in a quite unlucky spot.

It's unlikely this driver, employed by a fruit picking firm, would have the experience to deal with a situation like this which experienced drivers would recognise as a precarious position requiring evacuation.

If he's not put his hazards on, or has no PCV, he really ought to be jailed for involuntary manslaughter.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Am I right in saying that usually if there is roadworks then there is usually signs saying "Free recovery Await Rescue" or similar?

like this one?

 

[185]

Ah... just had a look and indeed at the crash site on the SB carriageway, just after J3 towards Frankley Services there is indeed a narrow bridge which like others nearby has no hard shoulders under it....