Another Unsuccessful Application!

[185]

My best advice to anyone who perceives that one operator, company 'A' is repeatedly ignoring their applications is be prepared to temporarily move beyond the locality, apply to 'B' another firm, and try transfer back. Once qualified, whilst there is no guarantee that train company 'A' will give you a job, it will make them look pretty daft if a qualified & competent person is still being turned down whilst giving the age-old reason that other people were "...more suited to the job...".

 

[nat67]

I have been unsuccessful with applying for jobs i'm still only 19. I have applied for many jobs with Colas and they seem to be crying out for people but turn me down all the time. I have done an engineering level 3, no not interested. I think Colas are going down hill very quickly as I was told by someone it's that bad the Bosses want a fight at work!

 

[keep truckin]

You mentioned the earmarking of people for certain jobs? I agree 100% with you on this (usually for management jobs or where there’s only one or two vacancies available). Nepotism is a big issue on the railway and probably a lot of other industries, but isn’t the same as discrimination.

I’m not saying that the railway always recruits set genders or races as some seem to be blinkered to think is what I and others are saying. What I am saying though, is that with the push for more ‘women in rail’ and the like, and with ‘positive discrimination’ being openly promoted by certain industries, discrimination certainly DOES happen. I don’t seem to see any replies to my comment where I suggested that if it was advertised for only white males to apply for jobs in certain areas because they’re underrepresented, said recruiters may be seen as being racist/sexist etc? Is it not the same as openly only inviting minority groups and women to apply in areas/jobs predominantly represented by white males?

"Only white males to apply", "openly only inviting minority groups and women to apply": another example of exaggeration and reading what you want to read. Sometimes companies WELCOME more applications from under represented groups because they want to make the Railway more open and representative to all, but they then measure these applicants to the same standard. This is not stating only certain groups are allowed to apply.

This is what I mean by people taking half-truths and rumour and presenting them as facts.

 

[Stigy]

"Only white males to apply", "openly only inviting minority groups and women to apply": another example of exaggeration and reading what you want to read. Sometimes companies WELCOME more applications from under represented groups because they want to make the Railway more open and representative to all, but they then measure these applicants to the same standard. This is not stating only certain groups are allowed to apply.

This is what I mean by people taking half-truths and rumour and presenting them as facts.

This is not the case. You only need to look at BTP’s latest recruitment campaign for this to be evidenced. “We are only able to take applications from those in under represented groups at present” was the terminology used (or there about). Whatever was written made it abundantly clear that if you applied and didn’t match this screening criteria, your application would be sifted.

Admittedly, I’ve not known the railway to be this direct yet.

 

[MostlyHarmless]

"Only white males to apply", "openly only inviting minority groups and women to apply": another example of exaggeration and reading what you want to read. Sometimes companies WELCOME more applications from under represented groups because they want to make the Railway more open and representative to all, but they then measure these applicants to the same standard. This is not stating only certain groups are allowed to apply.

This is what I mean by people taking half-truths and rumour and presenting them as facts.

I'm not suggesting that this happens in the railway recruitment, but this case highlights what a lot of people suspect happens in police recruiting. Diversity in the workplace is important and everyone should be in favour of it, but it needs to be fair and standards should not be lowered to achieve it - which is what Cheshire Constabulary did https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-47335859

 

[Nosillomr]

Don't give up, I failed four DMIs before passing my fifth, I'm now a qualified driver on mainline NR infrastructure.

I did hear of a driver who unsuccessfully went for a qualified role at a TOC known to use quotas, he happened to be a straight white male. On the third or fourth attempt, he ticked the "transgender" box and got a positive response straight away. Upon being told of how the railway "needed more people like [him]" he replied that he must of ticked the wrong box by mistake, he never heard anything further from the TOC in question, which I should add I do not work for.

Don't be under the impression that all DMs and recruiters are in favour of quotas and various PC recruitment policies, there are some who are not.

Hi, excuse my ignorance here but I was under the impression that ‘failing’ a DMI counted against you as a ‘life’ for the two strike rule? Obviously not if this has happened to you but was a concern for me. Be grateful to hear from you either on here or message me? Thanks

 

[keep truckin]

This is not the case. You only need to look at BTP’s latest recruitment campaign for this to be evidenced. “We are only able to take applications from those in under represented groups at present” was the terminology used (or there about). Whatever was written made it abundantly clear that if you applied and didn’t match this screening criteria, your application would be sifted.

Admittedly, I’ve not known the railway to be this direct yet.

Right. You should of been more specific then because usually people are discussing TOC/FOC roles here. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with welcoming more applications from under represented groups, to make the railway more open and accepting. This is going to sound pc, but messrooms can be very cliquey and I can see how it could seem like a daunting industry for a female or BAME person to enter. However the best standards and results should still be accepted.

 

[Stigy]

Hi, excuse my ignorance here but I was under the impression that ‘failing’ a DMI counted against you as a ‘life’ for the two strike rule? Obviously not if this has happened to you but was a concern for me. Be grateful to hear from you either on here or message me? Thanks

No. Failing the MMI would count as a life, but not the DMI. The DMI is just a standard competency based job interview, whereas the MMI is part of the assesment process. You can’t ‘fail’ a DMI as such, as it’s not an assesment. You can be deemed not as suitable as someone else or not score highly enough though. You can have as many DMIs as you want/need to.

 

[Stigy]

Right. You should of been more specific then because usually people are discussing TOC/FOC roles here. Personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with welcoming more applications from under represented groups, to make the railway more open and accepting. This is going to sound pc, but messrooms can be very cliquey and I can see how it could seem like a daunting industry for a female or BAME person to enter. However the best standards and results should still be accepted.

I made no secret of the fact I was being generic and non-Railway specific. I’ve had no bad experiences with discrimination on the railway (nepotism, but not descrimination), but have been in the rail industry for a number of years and know it’s the same as any industry, it’s just that the police have been more blatent with the PC stuff. What I will say though, is that if the shoe was on the other foot, and an applicant from a minority group played the descrimination card with a TOC (or anyone else for that matter), would they be taken more seriously, than if somebody from a non-minority group needed to challenge a TOC for this reason?

 

[feaky4]

My best advice to anyone who perceives that one operator, company 'A' is repeatedly ignoring their applications is be prepared to temporarily move beyond the locality, apply to 'B' another firm, and try transfer back. Once qualified, whilst there is no guarantee that train company 'A' will give you a job, it will make them look pretty daft if a qualified & competent person is still being turned down whilst giving the age-old reason that other people were "...more suited to the job...".

Dont you need to live with in 45 mins??? I applied to 2 different stations but rejected from both still waiting to hear from one but I know the answer

 

[Stigy]

Dont you need to live with in 45 mins??? I applied to 2 different stations but rejected from both still waiting to hear from one but I know the answer

Yes, but if you relocate and apply to your now local TOC, is what was being referred to.

 

[185]

Dont you need to live with in 45 mins??? I applied to 2 different stations but rejected from both still waiting to hear from one but I know the answer

Not always an option for everyone I know but renting a room near your new depot is an option for some to circumvent this rule. A considerable outgoing but only in the short term, if you're successful in relocating back after a year or so.

There's quite a few like me with two properties, far less glamorous than it sounds lol

 

[feaky4]

Not always an option for everyone I know but renting a room near your new depot is an option for some to circumvent this rule. A considerable outgoing but only in the short term, if you're successful in relocating back after a year or so.

There's quite a few like me with two properties, far less glamorous than it sounds lol

Wish I could would help out a lot many people have said they struggle or dont get past the northern sift but have had interviews ect with others I'm confident if I can get past a sift I would pass the rest

 

[JetStream]

But that's because the vast majority of the workforce are white men in this country, surely?
So of course workforces are going to be made up of mainly white men.
And people don't want to bother filling in any census info, so we don't actually know the split between white/brown/black men/women is in this country.

Not all Indian (for example) men or women want to drive trains.
I don't see why companies are so stuck on this. Any woman should feel free to apply for any job. Just like any man should. Yet you don't see many men infant school teachers. Perhaps that's because most men don't want to do that job, but a lot of women do? That's okay ya know!

Yet companies seem to think positive discrimination gives them extra gold stars.
I'd want the right person for the job, not a specific person to tick a box.

It's not bitterness. It's about something that is supposed to stamp out unfairness being unfair.
Let me guess, you're in a role that you're happy with? And it wasn't too hard to get?
And you can't imagine what it would be like if they told you that you were being made redundant to make way for more women? Bet ya chuckled at that.
Reminds me of someone else here who wrote some horrible things because they were all happy in their driving role, yet said similar things to what you did. Easy to say when you don't have any vested interest.

LGBT+, BAME, women, and all minority groups will have a substantial number of people within them who wouldn't consider the railway because of how white, middle-aged, and straight it appears to be. Up where I am, I'd say the TOC nearest to me is approximately 85% male, 1% (max) BAME, and around 5% LGBT. If you include drivers it's more like 90%, 0% (rounded down) and 3% respectively.

Saying that minority groups just don't want to work on the railway because of the jobs, rather than the culture, is grossly incorrect. Encouraging more minority applications is always a good thing - but hiring people because of their minority, especially when they're not as good as the straight white men they're up against is of course wrong.

I know of two training courses that took place not that long ago - from 20 people, 4 were women, 2 were LGBT, and 0 were BAME. All were under 50.

I'd also add that saying "I've always wanted to be a driver/work on the railway" is the quickest way to not get a job - TOCs don't want people who come across as railway enthusiasts first, and people who actually understand what the job entails and are interested in that second.

 

[Journeyman]

LGBT+, BAME, women, and all minority groups will have a substantial number of people within them who wouldn't consider the railway because of how white, middle-aged, and straight it appears to be. Up where I am, I'd say the TOC nearest to me is approximately 85% male, 1% (max) BAME, and around 5% LGBT. If you include drivers it's more like 90%, 0% (rounded down) and 3% respectively.

Absolutely agree. A lot of people on the railway, especially the older ones, have very...errr..."traditional" ideas, and coming into that environment can be very difficult. It's not as bad as it once was, but even for white males who aren't stereotypically macho, it can be very difficult. I had to do some work in a control room about fifteen years ago, and was treated absolutely abysmally by the knuckle-dragging apes who worked in there, and it was a pretty distressing experience, if I'm honest. I'm a straight white male.

Saying that minority groups just don't want to work on the railway because of the jobs, rather than the culture, is grossly incorrect. Encouraging more minority applications is always a good thing - but hiring people because of their minority, especially when they're not as good as the straight white men they're up against is of course wrong.

Absolutely agree. Thankfully, all the railway companies I've had dealings with have taken what appear to be reasonable steps to be fair. Applying for jobs is always a lottery and you can't guarantee it's going to go your way, even if you get everything right, but the idea that white males are actively discriminated against is, as far as I can tell, nonsense. As others have said, you only need to look at how many railway employees are white males.

London Underground were keen to recruit more female drivers a few years ago, and the way they did it was by advertising for jobs in Cosmopolitan. It got a big response, resulting in a much bigger pool of female applicants to choose from, but it didn't result in equally well qualified men being turned down.

I'd also add that saying "I've always wanted to be a driver/work on the railway" is the quickest way to not get a job - TOCs don't want people who come across as railway enthusiasts first, and people who actually understand what the job entails and are interested in that second.

As I've stated elsewhere recently, and have seen from my own experience, enthusiasts come across as knowing it all already, and they can be incredibly difficult to train. A lot of TOCs prefer to start with a clean sheet.

 

[Nosillomr]

No. Failing the MMI would count as a life, but not the DMI. The DMI is just a standard competency based job interview, whereas the MMI is part of the assesment process. You can’t ‘fail’ a DMI as such, as it’s not an assesment. You can be deemed not as suitable as someone else or not score highly enough though. You can have as many DMIs as you want/need to.

Ahhh, ok. Many thanks for the response.

 

[Picklebutton]

As I've stated elsewhere recently, and have seen from my own experience, enthusiasts come across as knowing it all already, and they can be incredibly difficult to train. A lot of TOCs prefer to start with a clean sheet.

I wouldn’t say that’s the representative of ALL enthusiasts. There are enthusiasts, the spotters, and then there are those who are enthused by the subject matter and it’s intracacies.

Some enthusiasts are easy to train because they ARE interested in the job for what it is; they want to learn, they want to be the best they can at the job by taking pride in their skills and work ethic.

Those without even a passing interest in the railway, or its operation per se, and when asked why they want to be a driver, are on the whole only applying because they are interested in the high salary, four-day week, working as much overtime as possible.

The latter for their lack of enthusiasm, aren’t neccesarily going to be good at the job, or take pride in their work during, or after training.

It’s about evidencing you not only have the right mental attitude, interest and commitment to do the job, along with the shift work, but the right life skills and any other skills that are transferable to the role.

It’s a very long training period, with the course pressure akin to that of becoming an airline pilot, so those who lack tenacity, or cannot demonstrate any track record of long-term achievement, will be binned at interview stage.

 

[Clarabella31]

Apply for a job with Virgin and see for yourself. Honestly, it's a joke. If you're not literally up to off-your-face levels of wackiness and jolliness all the time, they won't touch you. Their recruitment process is an absolute nightmare for anyone who wants to take a quiet and serious approach to their job.

Ironically I have recently applied for roles for Virgin (LNER) and EMT and found EMT to be the one requiring the applicants to be dancing monkeys

 

[Evolution]

Ironically I have recently applied for roles for Virgin (LNER) and EMT and found EMT to be the one requiring the applicants to be dancing monkeys

Looking from the outside the EMT process of 4 stages including an assessment day, enhanced passes, online tests, does look over the top for a Depot Driver role and you certainly have to jump through more hoops than most other TOC's.

 

[heat1080]

Hi everybody, first post on here. Today I went for a commercial gaurd assessment......and failed. I was told I done really well in the maths and reading text part but didn’t complete enough answers on one part of the concentration tests. I was gutted as I knew I messed up whilst I was doing the test. I was accurate but not enough points apparently. Anyways just to follow on with theme of who was also with me.
1 black male aged 40ish (been a ticket inspector for 15 yrs)
5 white polish males aged mid 30’s
Myself and another chap. Both white aged late 30s.
I will try again in 6 months if position is available. Now I’m going to have a few beers and drown my sorrows.

 

[Stigy]

Hi everybody, first post on here. Today I went for a commercial gaurd assessment......and failed. I was told I done really well in the maths and reading text part but didn’t complete enough answers on one part of the concentration tests. I was gutted as I knew I messed up whilst I was doing the test. I was accurate but not enough points apparently. Anyways just to follow on with theme of who was also with me.
1 black male aged 40ish (been a ticket inspector for 15 yrs)
5 white polish males aged mid 30’s
Myself and another chap. Both white aged late 30s.
I will try again in 6 months if position is available. Now I’m going to have a few beers and drown my sorrows.

Sorry to hear this. Beer works, I have used this method a few times

Never give up. Do you get infinite goes at Guard assesments or is it like Drivers where it’s a two strike rule?

 

[heat1080]

Sorry to hear this. Beer works, I have used this method a few times

Never give up. Do you get infinite goes at Guard assesments or is it like Drivers where it’s a two strike rule?

She told me at the end that I had to wait 6 months if applying for same job. Then she did say something else about retakes but to be honest I forgot as I was stunned and annoyed at myself. But I will look into it as there may well be a 3 strikes and out rule.

 

[Rammstein]

She told me at the end that I had to wait 6 months if applying for same job. Then she did say something else about retakes but to be honest I forgot as I was stunned and annoyed at myself. But I will look into it as there may well be a 3 strikes and out rule.

If it's anything like our TOC you get two goes at the assessments that the company pays for, and if you want to continue reapplying after those two goes you can, but you have to pay (not sure how much) to take the assessments again.

 

[heat1080]

If it's anything like our TOC you get two goes at the assessments that the company pays for, and if you want to continue reapplying after those two goes you can, but you have to pay (not sure how much) to take the assessments again.

Cheers for reply. I won’t fail again I’m prett sure of it. But then I would have the second part of the tests then an interview to get through.