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any appetite for a test case

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34D

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When speaking to other forum members, I believe it is fair to say that the majority view is that punitive 'settlements' offered by TOC's are unfair. I'm thinking particularly of Northern's £80 and whatever GN are doing (assuming this is still the FCC ethos).

Is there any appetite for a test case? What I mean here is a matter with enough merit so as to be reasonably comfortable of a win, but not so much so that the TOC would drop it. Ideally, one would hope to loose before the mags, appeal to the crown court (and loose again) then appeal to the Court of Appeal and win there.

The motorists' rights groups are of course going further and appealing to the Supreme Court (on the matter of 'penalties' re private parking). This is of course civil law.

Arguably, if there were to be any such railway test case, the accused ought to be impecunious. They would have to be totally committed and comfortable.

Any 'fighting fund' would have to be wholly separate from this forum, of course.

Any thoughts from others? If only just to say I'm talking total rubbish?
 
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mbreckers

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Except when you can't

Of course, then at the first possible opportunity.

Let's be honest the only way you will ever get the £80 plus whatever letter is if you don't have a genuine reason for not buying a ticket.
 

bb21

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When speaking to other forum members, I believe it is fair to say that the majority view is that punitive 'settlements' offered by TOC's are unfair. I'm thinking particularly of Northern's £80 and whatever GN are doing (assuming this is still the FCC ethos).

Is there any appetite for a test case? What I mean here is a matter with enough merit so as to be reasonably comfortable of a win, but not so much so that the TOC would drop it. Ideally, one would hope to loose before the mags, appeal to the crown court (and loose again) then appeal to the Court of Appeal and win there.

The motorists' rights groups are of course going further and appealing to the Supreme Court (on the matter of 'penalties' re private parking). This is of course civil law.

Arguably, if there were to be any such railway test case, the accused ought to be impecunious. They would have to be totally committed and comfortable.

Any 'fighting fund' would have to be wholly separate from this forum, of course.

Any thoughts from others? If only just to say I'm talking total rubbish?

What kind of test case do you have in mind?

Obviously the £80 FtP settlement would not be subject to court rulings. Any case brought forward by Northern would likely be either under the Byelaws or the RoRA. Are you thinking of challenging the former or the latter?
 

DaveNewcastle

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Is there any appetite for a test case?
. . . .
When speaking to other forum members, I believe it is fair to say that the majority view is that punitive 'settlements' offered by TOC's are unfair. I'm thinking particularly of Northern's £80 . . . . . .
I'm quite sure that there is such an appetite. There are a few on this forum, members and staff, who have been vociferous in their outrage and objection to Northern's 'Failure to Pay' scheme (FtP) and whom would be eager to see that scheme challenged and quashed. I suspect that Northern's own Prosecution's department would have some eagerness for a challenge, looking forward to a vindication of the scheme.
I'm more sanguine, and expect that such a challenge may not, ultimately, provide a judgement of such wide reaching impact that the FtP scheme is either judged to be utterly repugnant in law, or else utterly lawful. I can see four grounds of objection to a decision from a lower Court, with success in arguing any one of these grounds leading to the specific circumstances being judged as the creation of an unlawful charge. It would fail to answer the other questions, and fail to provide the breadth of application which gave a conclusive ruling on the scheme.

Is there any appetite for a test case? What I mean here is a matter with enough merit so as to be reasonably comfortable of a win, but not so much so that the TOC would drop it. Ideally, one would hope to loose before the mags, appeal to the crown court (and loose again) then appeal to the Court of Appeal and win there.
That's not the only method of challenging the principle. In Ashton v Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Co [1904] the passenger paid the additional amount demanded, under protest, and then sued in the County Court (The Company won on Appeal).

I've previously expressed a more balanced assessment of the scheme, even complimenting Northern Rail on their innovative and pragmatic approach to fare evasion.
I'd be willing to consider working on such a challenge, (without the outrage), and to do so for either party in the interests of achieving a meaningful outcome.
 

34D

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What kind of test case do you have in mind?

Obviously the £80 FtP settlement would not be subject to court rulings. Any case brought forward by Northern would likely be either under the Byelaws or the RoRA. Are you thinking of challenging the former or the latter?

They could of course issue small claims court proceedings for the £80 (which depending on the parking case, they may well decide to do).
 

Harpers Tate

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Let's be honest the only way you will ever get the £80 plus whatever letter is if it is suspected by someone that you don't have a genuine reason for not buying a ticket.
Fixed that for you.

The thing I find about this is the extent to which it's all inequitable.

Customer "makes a mistake": "fined" £80 in real money
RailCo employee makes a mistake: Customer is awarded (in Northern's case) two free days' travel on Northern (worth an uncertain amount to the customer and costing nothing at all to the RailCo).
 
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Clip

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When speaking to other forum members, I believe it is fair to say that the majority view is that punitive 'settlements' offered by TOC's are unfair. I'm thinking particularly of Northern's £80 and whatever GN are doing (assuming this is still the FCC ethos).

Is there any appetite for a test case? What I mean here is a matter with enough merit so as to be reasonably comfortable of a win, but not so much so that the TOC would drop it. Ideally, one would hope to loose before the mags, appeal to the crown court (and loose again) then appeal to the Court of Appeal and win there.

The motorists' rights groups are of course going further and appealing to the Supreme Court (on the matter of 'penalties' re private parking). This is of course civil law.

Arguably, if there were to be any such railway test case, the accused ought to be impecunious. They would have to be totally committed and comfortable.

Any 'fighting fund' would have to be wholly separate from this forum, of course.

Any thoughts from others? If only just to say I'm talking total rubbish?

I say go for it. There are plenty of people on here who will assist you with your case and indeed some do cry out for a decent ombudsman for the railway so you have my backing.

Or did you want someone else to go ahead with it?
 

crehld

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Buy a ticket before you travel. Problem solved.

This hardly solves the problem. What about those instances where one is issued an £80 penalty despite holding a valid ticket which was purchased before travel? And yes it does happen!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Of course, then at the first possible opportunity.

Let's be honest the only way you will ever get the £80 plus whatever letter is if you don't have a genuine reason for not buying a ticket.

This is incorrect. £80 fines (and penalty fares) are issued to those who have a genuine reason for not buying a ticket before travel, and indeed in some cases to those who have already purchased and hold a valid ticket for travel. Any claim to the contrary is not grounded in reality. Indeed it is for this reason that an appeals process exists!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm quite sure that there is such an appetite. There are a few on this forum, members and staff, who have been vociferous in their outrage and objection to Northern's 'Failure to Pay' scheme (FtP) and whom would be eager to see that scheme challenged and quashed.

I suggest that those who are "vociferous in their outrage and objection to Northern's 'Failure to Pay' scheme (FtP) and whom would be eager to see that scheme challenged and quashed" have more of a problem with its implementation rather than the principle of it.

I can only speak of my experience. However, after two £80 fines which should not have been issued given I was in possession of a valid ticket on each occasion, a four month battle to get Northern to stop threatening me with prosecution for boarding a train at a station which has no ticket issuing facilities, yet which their prosecutions team insisted did despite clear empirical evidence to the contrary, and, of course, having to put up with the sometimes outright rudeness of some of their untrained third party contractors who are given customer facing revenue protection roles, some vociferousness in outrage and objection is to be expected.

I suspect that Northern's own Prosecution's department would have some eagerness for a challenge, looking forward to a vindication of the scheme.
I'm more sanguine, and expect that such a challenge may not, ultimately, provide a judgement of such wide reaching impact that the FtP scheme is either judged to be utterly repugnant in law, or else utterly lawful. I can see four grounds of objection to a decision from a lower Court, with success in arguing any one of these grounds leading to the specific circumstances being judged as the creation of an unlawful charge. It would fail to answer the other questions, and fail to provide the breadth of application which gave a conclusive ruling on the scheme.

Perhaps Northern would welcome vindication of their scheme. Equally if a ruling went against them, perhaps it would focus their attention to implement the scheme in a more professional manner. Perhaps it would have no effect all. I know nothing about the impact of legal challenges! Only one way to find out!

I've previously expressed a more balanced assessment of the scheme, even complimenting Northern Rail on their innovative and pragmatic approach to fare evasion.

This doesn't strike me as a 'balanced assessment'. In fact lauding Northern's approach without reference to the wider issues of implementation is anything but balanced. Perhaps a more 'balanced assessment' would be to acknowledge the merits of Northern's innovative scheme to tackle fare evasion (which I do and support fully), but to equally acknowledge there remain several serious issues in how it is implemented on the ground, which in my experience Northern have yet to make any substantive attempt to tackle. To claim the scheme is perfect in every way is, quite simply, an unsustainable argument.
 
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Greenback

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I think you can count me as someone who doesn't object to the FtP scheme in principle, but I do have concerns about the way it's been handled. Northern undoubtedly does have a problem with fare evasion, but there is also a problem with the availability of ticket buying facilities, whether in the form of TVM's or staffed offices. This is only compounded when Northern themselves don't seem to realise which stations have no facilities to buy a ticket.

Even where such facilities do exist, they can be insufficient. While it's hard to differentiate between the opportunistic fare evaders and the hardcore serial offenders, I feel that when there are queues at the window and at the solitary TVM, it only encourages passengers to jump on their train rather than be delayed. Having to arrive at the station 15 or 20 before your planned service only adds to the journey time, which makes rail less competitive with other forms of transport.

Northern should have made greater efforts in this area before or alongside the introduction of the scheme. That they didn't, and don't seem to have made much of an effort since as far as I can see, only serves to undermine the scheme in my eyes.
 

Haydn1971

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As I've said previously - selling tickets freely onboard give a false impression that it is "fine" to travel without a ticket. I've regularly jumped on a Northern train at Sheffield/Meadowhall and bought a return from the conductor without so much as a whim from them. Whilst I enjoy that flexibility and freedom, I'm of the opinion it should be either one thing or the other. Having days when it's "naughty" to do so just annoys customers who would otherwise buy a ticket on the platform if they knew that a ticket would always incur a penalty charge onboard.
 

crehld

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Personally I object to the FtP scheme but would support the introduction of a proper Penalty Fares scheme to the relevant Regulations.

I'd be inclined to agree, but you need to remember that a rather large chunk of stations on the Northern network have no ticket issuing facilities, and we're not talking small country halts with a handful of passengers either. Where ticket issuing facilities do exist they usually only offer a very limited range of tickets. For a variety of reasons (guard too busy with other duties, train too packed for guard to walk through, etc) it is often not possible to purchase a ticket on board either. Attempting to purchase at your destination, despite having no adequate opportunity to purchase until that point, often lands you in hot water. Trying to enforce a penalty fares system (and indeed the current FtP system) in this context would be (and is) highly problematic.

Providing passengers with an adequate opportunity to purchase an appropriate ticket for their journey should be the priority. Enforcement (coupled with staff training on ticket validity) would be the logical next step, but can only be effective once the former issue has been addressed.
 

jon0844

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I'm amazed there can be any stations without some form of ticketing facility, or a permit to travel or some other system in place (a machine displaying a code or something) to prove where you boarded.

Then you can throw the book at people who don't have a ticket because there will be NO places you can't get a ticket (unless faulty/vandalised).

The cost of providing ticketing facilities should be part of any franchise bid and not something that is considered optional. Regardless of how much these machines cost, they should be as important as having real-time information provision, station lighting and other things you wouldn't go without just to save a few quid.

I too am broadly in favour of a higher penalty fare, but this is an unofficial penalty fare and so raises some concerns, especially when you do have (as mentioned) so many contradictions in terms of what the rules appear to be. Can you buy a ticket onboard or not?
 

najaB

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Trying to enforce a penalty fares system (and indeed the current FtP system) in this context would be (and is) highly problematic.
It wouldn't be problematic, it would be impossible! Northern's ticketing provision doesn't meet the minimum standards required for a proper Penalty Fares scheme.
 

34D

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I say go for it. There are plenty of people on here who will assist you with your case and indeed some do cry out for a decent ombudsman for the railway so you have my backing.

Or did you want someone else to go ahead with it?

Due to holding a position of authority in the community, it would be very foolish of me to engineer a potentially criminal situation.

There are enough threads on here that are suitable. One of the student lawyers would be ideal.
 

Greenback

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Due to holding a position of authority in the community, it would be very foolish of me to engineer a potentially criminal situation.

There are enough threads on here that are suitable. One of the student lawyers would be ideal.

Perhaps you could finance someone else so that there can be a test case without your direct involvement?
 

Gareth Marston

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Perhaps you could finance someone else so that there can be a test case without your direct involvement?

I boarded the 1145 from Wrexham to a Shrewsbury today and found a date stamped Out portion of a Bangor to Rhyl return ticket at my feet. I wonder how the owner got on at the barriers at Rhyl? Clearly there's been no intent to defraud as a return ticket has been purchased prior to journey (not the portable ticket machine print) and checked.
 

bb21

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They could of course issue small claims court proceedings for the £80 (which depending on the parking case, they may well decide to do).

So one willingly settles out of court in order not to be taken to court but then wants to have his money back (I assume after the six-month timeline for filing a case under the Byelaws has elapsed)? I wonder how the court would view that.

I am interested to hear the outcome.
 

DaleCooper

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So one willingly settles out of court in order not to be taken to court but then wants to have his money back (I assume after the six-month timeline for filing a case under the Byelaws has elapsed)? I wonder how the court would view that.

Might that be considered as vexatious litigation?
 

First class

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A barrister has given his supportive view on the Northern Rail FPN scheme after DfT raised concerns. His only concern is the use of the word "fixed penalty" instead of "fixed payment", but the substance of the scheme isn't really affected by that.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/151812/response/375054/attach/5/Document 4b.pdf

I find it a convincing read.

Furthermore, with Transport Focus, ATOC (and now DfT) relatively satisfied with their scheme, support will be high for Northern.

Key thing for me is that Northern do NOT impose the FPN scheme on anyone. It is simply an option for customers- who are absolutely under no obligation to pay it- and Northern do not try to make out otherwise. If people feel the FPN scheme is unfair for their offence, then they have absolutely every opportunity to present their case (free of charge) to an independent court.
 
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Bletchleyite

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It certainly seems like it is legal from that letter. However, morally, to me, it is blackmail. Prosecute or don't prosecute, but threats of it to extort an arbitrary financial penalty is IMO wrong. It's not illegal but IMO it should be; it would be like if I assaulted you, and you requested a bribe not to press charges.

A proper Penalty Fares scheme is required. But Northern can't be bothered paying for the TVMs etc that would be required for it, and IMO they should not be allowed to get away with this.
 
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bb21

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A barrister has given his supportive view on the Northern Rail FPN scheme after DfT raised concerns. His only concern is the use of the word "fixed penalty" instead of "fixed payment", but the substance of the scheme isn't really affected by that.

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/151812/response/375054/attach/5/Document 4b.pdf

I find it a convincing read.

Furthermore, with Transport Focus, ATOC (and now DfT) relatively satisfied with their scheme, support will be high for Northern.

I note with interest the following extracts from the quoted document.

RE: FIXED PENALTY AND FAILURE TO PURCHASE said:
If a passenger is found to have travelled without having paid the appropriate fare they will receive a "Failure to Purchase" notice requesting payment of the outstanding fare.

RE: FIXED PENALTY AND FAILURE TO PURCHASE said:
If the individual concerned does not pay the outstanding fare Northern send a "Fixed Penalty Notice".

This does not appear to be what Northern are doing at the moment, instead jumping straight into prosecution proceedings and issuing these "offers" to keep things out of court.
 

crehld

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I note with interest the following extracts from the quoted document.

This does not appear to be what Northern are doing at the moment, instead jumping straight into prosecution proceedings and issuing these "offers" to keep things out of court.

Indeed.

So the assessment offered by these experts is based on a false account of what actually happens on the ground.
 

lejog

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Due to holding a position of authority in the community, it would be very foolish of me to engineer a potentially criminal situation.

There are enough threads on here that are suitable. One of the student lawyers would be ideal.

I really doubt that anyone would win if there was any question of being guilty if taken to court, you really need a test case for someone who is plainly innocent and being threatened by Northern, there do appear to be a few.

As discussed in another current thread a QC interviewed by the BBC said (19min in) that while the offer was "particularly unpleasant" , it was "a pragmatic solution" for both parties if you are guilty, while it looks like a "deliberate attempt to intimidate" the innocent.

I don't know the legal consequences (if any) of being unpleasant or intimidation of the innocent, but note Northern's reaction to the law lecturer in the programme defending himself in court, their lawyers withdrew the prosecution and walked out.

Note too that as a result of the programme, Northern Rail have apologised for some of the intimidation (relating to convictions being unspent and the conviction being one of dishonesty), so presumably in future their offer will be less intimidatory with the described effects on future employment and travel visas toned down.
 

First class

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I note with interest the following extracts from the quoted document.





This does not appear to be what Northern are doing at the moment, instead jumping straight into prosecution proceedings and issuing these "offers" to keep things out of court.

Generally, people are being given a "first warning", and given the opportunity to pay the fare.

It's people who are either:

1) Deliberately avoiding or;
2) Repeat offenders;
3) Don't use the opportunity to pay the outstanding fare

Who are being taken to court.

This whole issue surrounds Byelaw 18 primarily, not offences under the scope of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (who clearly won't get just a "warning".

Where is the evidence that suggests that for simple, co-operative genuine customers, that they aren't getting a first warning and offered to pay the Condition 2 fare?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A proper Penalty Fares scheme is required. But Northern can't be bothered paying for the TVMs etc that would be required for it, and IMO they should not be allowed to get away with this.

And no - the problem is that DfT will not allow the "Penalty Fare" to increase to £80 (£50) like TfL.

A Penalty Fare isn't really an effective deterrent any more for local journeys.
 

bb21

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Generally, people are being given a "first warning", and given the opportunity to pay the fare.

It's people who are either:

1) Deliberately avoiding or;
2) Repeat offenders;
3) Don't use the opportunity to pay the outstanding fare

Who are being taken to court.

This whole issue surrounds Byelaw 18 primarily, not offences under the scope of the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (who clearly won't get just a "warning".

Where is the evidence that suggests that for simple, co-operative genuine customers, that they aren't getting a first warning and offered to pay the Condition 2 fare?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


And no - the problem is that DfT will not allow the "Penalty Fare" to increase to £80 (£50) like TfL.

A Penalty Fare isn't really an effective deterrent any more for local journeys.

I can only take the words of those who come here for help, and more crucially trusted forum members who ended up in such a situation not through their own fault.
And no - the problem is that DfT will not allow the "Penalty Fare" to increase to £80 (£50) like TfL.

A Penalty Fare isn't really an effective deterrent any more for local journeys.

Why not, provided that they are rigorously enforced?

An increase to £80 was on the cards, before it all went quiet. I would favour such an increase, in addition to an increase to four times the full single fare if more.
 
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