Any information on the Bi-modes for the East Anglia franchise?.

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DDB

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I have long thought that a 2-3 car bi-mode that could fit the UK loading gauge would be an incredibly useful. Having a sprinter replacement that can both run on all the branch lines around the country that are not going to be electrified any time soon, but that can also run with electric speed and acceleration on any main line sections of its route will make pathing on the main line much easier.

I had assumed that such a thing was too difficult with modern emission requirements and the small UK loading gauge. Therefore I was very excited to read that 3 and 4 coach bi-modes have been ordered for the East Anglia franchise. However I can't find many details about them. Does anyone have anymore information? Top speeds in the two modes? Can they change mode on the move?

DDB
 
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jopsuk

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Details so far are scant. There may be more at the upcoming Innotrans tradeshow. Until then there's lots of forum wibble.

And after, obviously.
 

47802

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Are they actually going to be Bi-modes? from what I have seen so far I thought they were just getting Diesel Electric Units, and EMU's.
 

edwin_m

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Given Stadler's previous designs and the fact there is also a straight electric variant, I suspect they will be standard EMUs below the floor with above-floor engine compartments. Sort of Thumper for the 21st century.
 

Harbornite

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As a comparison, here's the artist's impression of the aforementioned Italian FLIRT.




Here's the AA of the UK Electric FLIRT.





And the UK Bi mode...




I hadn't actually seen the bi mode one until now and it obviously looks rather more like the European models.


Here's the article which features those two images...

Above (and below) you see an artist impression of the FLIRT UK, a new member of the FLIRT family developed by Stadler Rail, to serve the UK market. What you see is the cab design of the FLIRT UK for Intercity and Airport (Stansted Express) services. For both purposes, Stadler Rail will build ten 12-car electric trains each. Delivery will start in 2019.

24 x 10-car FLIRT UK intercity and 24 x 4 + 14 x 3 FLIRT UK regional trainsets

Stadler Rail will also deliver FLIRT UK sets for regional services (picture below). They have a more familiar exterior design, similar to the FLIRT3 trains we know from the continent. These regional trains will be bi-modal (diesel + electric). In total, 24 4-car and 14 3-car trains will be built, delivery will start in 2019 as well.

http://railcolornews.com/2016/08/15/uk-stadler-rail-enters-the-uk-market-trains-for-eastanglia/
 
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WatcherZero

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Only specific details ive seen are them being described as 'DEMU' rather than 'true Bi-Mode' and that they will have a 100mph max speed. Stadler offered 110/125mph variants but were told they only wanted 100. On that Italian picture above they are articulated with an extra 2/3rd carriage bogey to support the weight of the diesel powerpack, that's a change to Stadlers normal design practise of having a mini fully articulated carriage section for the powerpack.

My bet is the UK variant having the powerpack next to one of the drivers cabs rather than in the centre and supported by an extra bogey with a narrow staff only access corridor.

The 12 car EMU variant is being described as separable in to two halves for recovery purposes with a DM-T-T-T-T-M-M-T-T-T-T-DM carriage formation, Possibly suggests the center cars will have end rather than articulated bogies.
 
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Clansman

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What's with the 1 door per carriage side? Quite a typical European design I must say.
 
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Harbornite

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Only specific details ive seen are them being described as 'DEMU' rather than 'true Bi-Mode' .

Well the order is for bi-modes so I'm not sure why it would be otherwise.


These units could be referred to as E-DMUs ore, more specifically, E-DEMUs. Basically it's an electro diesel electric multiple unit (DMU with electric transmission).
 

WatcherZero

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I think it may be because the diesel motor directly feeds in to the electric traction motors rather than supplying energy to a bus that supplies the whole train. There may only be one motorised bogey rather than multiple traction motors spread through the train.

So its more mechanically/electrically similar to a Voyagers traction package (which features four self contained diesel-electric transmissions) than an IEP where any traction motor can draw from a common pool of energy supplied by the engines.
 
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dk1

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That what comes to my mind when I see those AAs, going to have a longer dwell time with only one door per carriage

But will still be quicker than slam door stock. Especially at weekends & holiday times when the Norwich services get swamped by clueless passengers in their own little world <(
 

LNW-GW Joint

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On trains like that I have encountered in Spain (CAF DMUs), the single door accesses a large low-level vestibule, from which you climb up steps to seating saloons either side.
The Flirt is another of these low-floor types which are largely irrelevant in the UK with our high platforms.
The relatively short articulated car length works against having multiple doors, as is the case with class 373 Eurostar.
 

najaB

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I thought NR had, if not an outright ban, a dislike of articulated bogie sock?
 

jopsuk

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These are, of course, just artists impressions. They may have been early concept images from the pitches from Stadler to Abellio. It's entirely possible that the actual designs may have more doors. But wibble away anyway.
 

najaB

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Isn't it more a case of track access charges penalising articulated stock for axle loads?
That's probably what I was thinking of - the higher track access charges mean that TOCs shy away from articulated stock.

Edit: Just had a look, a 373 motor vehicle is 27.9p/mile as compared to 15.8p/mile for a 221 motor vehicle - and 221s have a reputation for being expensive.
 
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jopsuk

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Is it possible that as part of the process Abellio have or are negotiating change to those track access penalties? It's entirely possible that Stadler have done research on the topic to persuade Network Rail to alter their policies. These things are never fixed in stone
 

Clarence Yard

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When you introduce new or altered stock through the "vehicle change" procedure with NR you usually have to provide certain technical information that backs up your bid estimate of VTAC.

It isn't just all about weight and certain other factors such as suspension stiffness also come into play in working out the track wear effect and therefore the setting of the charge.

There usually is a robust discussion on this but, as the charge has to be eventually agreed by the ORR, it can't be a punitive one just because NR want it to be.
 

Domh245

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I think that the most recent articulated stock proposal was Alstom's Thameslink one, which was denied because of it's articulated nature and higher track wear (and thus failing to meet part of the requirements of the TLP)
 

MCR247

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But then I'm sure they were much more worried about track wear and maintenance intervals on the thameslink core than they are in Anglia
 

Domh245

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But then I'm sure they were much more worried about track wear and maintenance intervals on the thameslink core than they are in Anglia

Well exactly. I think that the reason for the rejected alstom bid is being taken as gospel for the entire network, when it most likely isn't. As far as I'm aware, NR haven't ever explicitly come out against articulated stock, it's just that there haven't really been any proposals for it up to now because all of the manufacturers have used conventional designs that already existed
 

J-2739

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I think that the most recent articulated stock proposal was Alstom's Thameslink one, which was denied because of it's articulated nature and higher track wear (and thus failing to meet part of the requirements of the TLP)

I sometimes wonder if Alstom wasn't selected due to their poor reliability record, but maybe we Brits were too kind to tell them that?
 

IanXC

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I sometimes wonder if Alstom wasn't selected due to their poor reliability record, but maybe we Brits were too kind to tell them that?

I hesitate to point out that the Alstom Cl180s with Hull Trains have just become the most reliable stock on the East Coast Mainline....
 

J-2739

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I hesitate to point out that the Alstom Cl180s with Hull Trains have just become the most reliable stock on the East Coast Mainline....

I meant when the stock has practically come out of the factory. Only the Pendolinos have a good reliability rep.; SWT and GWR had to discard them for a period before getting them back and modifying them to make them super-reliable.
 

MikePJ

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One of the service changes advertised for the new franchise was the extension of the hourly Norwich-Cambridge service to Stansted Airport. I'd expect this service to be an "early adopter" of the bi-mode units because it's going to be running half the time on diesel (Norwich to Ely) and half on electric (Ely to Stansted).

It also gives the flexibility of using platforms 1 and 3 at Stansted if needed, which are for electric trains only because they're under the terminal - at the moment the DMUs all use platform 2 which is outside.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Some other details: the current issue of Rail claims (issue 808, p78) that the bi-modes will be the first of the new stock to enter traffic, in January 2019, displacing the Sprinters and Turbostars.

Another service change that could exploit bi-mode stock is the Ipswich-Peterborough train, which will become hourly and with most trains extended to Colchester. That would give an opportunity for a changeover at Stowmarket.
 

Bletchleyite

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That what comes to my mind when I see those AAs, going to have a longer dwell time with only one door per carriage

The carriages are very short - 16m, maybe. For IC a wide double door per 16m will easily work as well as two narrow ones in 26m, particularly with wide walk-through gangways.

For regional I would expect two doors on perhaps all but the end coach - that's the layout many of SBB's use. It's basically three sets of two bays with either a set of double doors or an articulated joint separating them.
 
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