Any recent experiences of Advance split ticketing and missed connections ?

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General Zod

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I've just read hairyhandedfool's excellent ADVANCE FARES FAQ from last year and just need some reassurance regarding missed connections on Advance split tickets.
I have an upcoming trip on which the return leg involves a change at Glasgow Queen St for one of the last trains London bound. I've allowed an hour for transfer ( just to be on the safe side) from Queen St to Glasgow Central for the Euston service. Normally allowing an hour would be fine but if I did miss my London connection and despite assurances that journeys on Advance split tickets are now classified as a " one complete journey" , are staff suitably informed that an individual in my predicament is perfectly entitled to use the next timetabled service ? Has anyone had any recent experiences of missed connections on Advance splits ? Were they good or bad as I would like to prepare myself if things to go awry.
 
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GadgetMan

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As long as you have tickets covering your whole journey (and you keep hold of them), and you allow the minimum connection times at stations then you're covered.
The experience of others whether good or bad should have no relevance to your rights as a passenger.

As to the question about staff being suitably informed? Well some are and some aren't when it comes to ticketing matters. There's no way of knowing how well trained the member of staff is until you have to deal with them at times of disruption. However most staff on the railway are very customer focused when journeys have been delayed.
 

General Zod

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@Gadgetman I do want to avoid getting into any heated arguments with staff if I know I am in the right and they are wrong. Just curious to know what my course of action should be in this scenario ?
 

GadgetMan

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If you are that worried, I'm sure someone will be happy to paste the relevant section that applies to split ticketing being classed as through journeys from the manual if it isn't already on this site.

You could keep a printed out copy in your pocket or saved on your phone/laptop etc to refer the staff too.

Editted to add;

Q04 - Can a customer buy two Advance tickets which join together to make one journey, e.g. ticket for A-B plus ticket for B-C, to travel the throughout journey A-C?

A: Yes, provided the train calls at B (NRCoC, click here)

Note 1: Where a passenger buys multiple Advance tickets in this way, if they then have to change their booking, it will also cost them multiple amounts of £10 fee.

Note 2: Where separate train companies are used for A-B and B-C with a change of train and ticket at B, it is still classed as a through rail journey in the event of delays (see also Q21 below) provided connections were booked in accordance with the advertised minimum times for stations. For example, a passenger travelling Cambridge to Leeds holding a combination of Cambridge – Peterborough ‘XC only’ and Peterborough – Leeds ‘EC only’ is allowed to take the next East Coast service in the event of a delay on the CrossCountry journey causing the connection to be missed.
 
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General Zod

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There is an Advance FAQ posted by hairyhandedfool which contains sections from "The Manual" . I will endeavor to print off the relevant paragraph.
 

142094

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There could be some confusion about what to do in a situation such as a rond trip using advances, but going back via a different route. For example, a trip I've done recently was:

Newcastle - King's Cross
Euston - Glasgow Central
Glasgow Central - Newcastle.

All three made on advances, and all three having decent connection times.

Now, say if there was disruption on the ECML, would a TOC send me to Glasgow or would they put me back on the next train to Newcastle?
 

DaveNewcastle

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. . . . Now, say if there was disruption on the ECML, would a TOC send me to Glasgow or would they put me back on the next train to Newcastle?
There is a crucial question that arises in examples like that.
Either your journey is the whole journey, in which case the Railways (acting as one, being fully joined up, of course) will attempt to get you to your destination :- i.e. back to Newcastle.
Or, your journey is 3 separate trips, and you will be conveyed to the Destination on the ticket for the leg of the journey on which you are travelling.

It is perhaps after considering these alternatives that we could be grateful that the arrangement on multiple tickets is not defined with strict and unambiguous clarity.
Its my understanding that TOCs' staff will, when queried about disruption or delays en route, attempt to understand the passenger's wish as well as to study their tickets.
I've certainly experienced this pragmatic approach in my own case where a delay or disruption has frustrated my intended journey.

Having said that, I will defend vigourously the announcement by ATOC that travel on all connecting legs of a journey will be assured, even if travelling on Advance Tickets where a delay prevents travel on the booked service(s) (subject to published connecting times) (and subject to the passenger's wish for onward travel).

The difficulty does remain, however, in cases where a journey (on Advance tickets) booked for much later in the day is frustrated. (e.g. a morning journey followed by an evening journey in the return direction, both on Advance tickets, and the morning journey is so delayed that the purpose of the passenger's travel is frustrated. We wouldn't expect a TOC to accept the evening Advance on a later service so that the passenger can still spend the same time between the 2 journeys). This is a situation which might be more properly covered if the passenger booked using another ticket type.
 

MarkyMarkD

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The same problem arises even if it is one journey in the same direction, but the passenger has intentionally booked 2 x advance tickets so that they can have a several hour break of journey in between the two tickets.

If the impact of the delay simply eats into the break of journey, it is hard to see how the TOC will treat that leniently, but it is the same scenario as Dave puts forward - a large part of the purpose of the trip might be the 4 hour meeting at the mid-point of the route, for example. Getting to the end destination might be a requirement, but part of the value of the trip has been destroyed by the delay.

Obviously Delay Repay (or similar compo) might apply, but only to the value of the first leg, as the second leg wasn't delayed.
 

bignosemac

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There may be instances where someone has booked a journey with split advances with a long gap between legs only to be heavily delayed on the first leg, but I'd imagine they are pretty rare.

Also if delays were that bad, (ie 2+ hours) then that would likely indicate serious network problems, consequent of which would be a relaxation of ticket restrictions. Yes, you may not be able to do what you'd planned during that gap between booked trains, but I think it highly unlikely you'd be denied onward travel after experiencing such a heavy delay to your first train.
 
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I've just read hairyhandedfool's excellent ADVANCE FARES FAQ from last year and just need some reassurance regarding missed connections on Advance split tickets.
I have an upcoming trip on which the return leg involves a change at Glasgow Queen St for one of the last trains London bound. I've allowed an hour for transfer ( just to be on the safe side) from Queen St to Glasgow Central for the Euston service. Normally allowing an hour would be fine but if I did miss my London connection and despite assurances that journeys on Advance split tickets are now classified as a " one complete journey" , are staff suitably informed that an individual in my predicament is perfectly entitled to use the next timetabled service ? Has anyone had any recent experiences of missed connections on Advance splits ? Were they good or bad as I would like to prepare myself if things to go awry.

My recent (April 10th ) journey from KMK-LDS via GLC and BHM went badly awry (timewise), due to signalling problems at GLC (covered extensively in another thread). Advance (split) tickets purchased from Virgin. 1st train cancelled at KMK. Scotrail arranged for a w/c adapted taxi (at their expense) through to GLC. Train from GLC (Low Level) to MTH. VWC Pendolino (ex 12:00 from GLC-EUS) started from MTH . This left well over 25 mins late. Missed the connection to LDS (XC Voyager) by 4 minutes. NR staff placed me on following 17:03 XC service to EDI (calling at LDS). After explaining situation to TM & there being already a w/chair in Standard Class, I was allowed to travel in First Class. The XC TM was perfectly OK about it. Arrived in LDS 30 minutes later than planned.
 

Tomonthetrain

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Would i be covered if i had a new street - london terminals SVR and a kings cross - edinburgh advance with a hour gap connection time between eus & kgx?
 

W-on-Sea

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Yes, as the "minimum recommended connection time" between Euston and Kings Cross is less than a hour.

In fact the minimum connection time for that journey is 35 minutes - see p.44 of this PDF of part of the current passenger timetable. In reality you could reasonably expect to do the connection very much more quickly than that, usually. Even on foot, in fact.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/Dec11/Commercial_Information.pdf
 

LexyBoy

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I was doing an Eastbourne to Doncaster journey, using advances from Eastbourne to Victoria, and Kings Cross to Doncaster, and the same for the return.

My return journey was delayed at Doncaster which meant i was in to London late and missed my connection. As the 2nd half in the eyes of a TOC is a whole new journey, so i had to buy another ticket, which cost £18 to get home with a railcard. Contacted East Coast and they did actually refund it with a voucher though as it was their fault. Gave 45 minutes interchange time for London as well. Was told if it was a ticket for the whole journey, i could travel on the next train.

Id give about an hour to transfer for major stations/London myself - as if you missed the last train, you wont really have a leg to stand on i would have though.

As noone else has commented on this, I'll say that you most definitely would have a leg to stand on, as long as you left the minimum interchange time. You did not need to buy a new ticket at all in this case, and had it been the last train you had missed then you should have had transport arranged.

 

DaveNewcastle

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As noone else has commented on this, I'll say that you most definitely would have a leg to stand on, . . . .
You're right, no one else had commented. I actually had a reason for declining that opportunity (explained below)!

The crucial factor appears to be this:
As the 2nd half in the eyes of a TOC is a whole new journey, . . . .
and most of us would disagree with that basic assumption, having accepted that the definition of 'Journey' is the end-to-end journey, irrespective of how many 'legs' or 'trains' or 'TOCs' may be involved in achieving the journey.
But that isn't defined anywhere, and there is no Case Law to help us with its Judgement on any passenger's 'Journey'.
There are, of course, a lot of other authorities we could look to for assistance, but I suspect that we'd struggle to import the decisions from elsewhere (e.g. UK Consumer Legislation or Contract Law) with enough confidence to help us with cross-London transfers when the journey into north London and then the journey out of south-central London were not bought together in the one transaction. If they were bought in the one transaction, then we would be on much stronger ground to assert that they constituted a single 'journey'.

[I acknowledge that ushawk didn't tell us whether the 2 Advances were bought n the one transaction which was one good reason for not jumping to any opinion on that specific incident]
 

MikeWh

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I'd be interested to know when ushawk experienced the problems. The last leg would have been with Southern and I have personal experience of them not understanding the rules last December. It would be disappointing to find out that they haven't learned their lesson.
 

yorkie

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I've just read hairyhandedfool's excellent ADVANCE FARES FAQ from last year and just need some reassurance regarding missed connections on Advance split tickets.
The FAQ is quoted from The Manual and already provides such reassurances.
I have an upcoming trip on which the return leg involves a change at Glasgow Queen St for one of the last trains London bound. I've allowed an hour for transfer ( just to be on the safe side) from Queen St to Glasgow Central for the Euston service.
That is more than the minimum interchange time, therefore you're covered. It's as simple as that.
Normally allowing an hour would be fine but if I did miss my London connection and despite assurances that journeys on Advance split tickets are now classified as a " one complete journey" , are staff suitably informed that an individual in my predicament is perfectly entitled to use the next timetabled service ?
Not sure what you mean by "staff"; all or most? Most are, but some will make up their own rules.

The number of staff who do not abide by the rules is small, but their impact can be very significant.
Has anyone had any recent experiences of missed connections on Advance splits ? Were they good or bad as I would like to prepare myself if things to go awry.
Good experiences are fine to go in this thread, but if anyone has a bad experience can I ask that full details are posted, and a separate thread may be best as such a complicated incident may require a thread in its own right. If staff do not apply the rules, as clarified in the Advance Fares FAQs then that needs to be robustly challenged by contacting the TOC. I am happy to proof read any letters for such a scenario, but a new thread is best.

Now, say if there was disruption on the ECML, would a TOC send me to Glasgow or would they put me back on the next train to Newcastle?
If you want to be able to travel by a particular route, rather than merely be conveyed to the ultimate destination of Newcastle, then I suggest a few things

1) A long time at a particular place. (This could be a lunch break)
2) In addition to the above, using more creative places to start/finish journeys en-route
3) Also in addition to the above, being "doubly valid" for part of the journey.

For example, instead of splitting tickets at Glasgow, we bought a ticket to Glasgow via Shettleston and then another ticket from Shettleston via Glasgow. This meant we were doubly valid. We also got a train that meant that, if on time we'd get a train half an hour earlier than the suggested service on the 2nd ticket. It also meant that, if we were delayed we could make up time by travelling via Falkirk High.

But still be prepared for the fact that if you are in a position where you have to claim it's all one journey then you may be sent back via a quicker route!
 

ushawk

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You're right, no one else had commented. I actually had a reason for declining that opportunity (explained below)!

The crucial factor appears to be this: and most of us would disagree with that basic assumption, having accepted that the definition of 'Journey' is the end-to-end journey, irrespective of how many 'legs' or 'trains' or 'TOCs' may be involved in achieving the journey.
But that isn't defined anywhere, and there is no Case Law to help us with its Judgement on any passenger's 'Journey'.
There are, of course, a lot of other authorities we could look to for assistance, but I suspect that we'd struggle to import the decisions from elsewhere (e.g. UK Consumer Legislation or Contract Law) with enough confidence to help us with cross-London transfers when the journey into north London and then the journey out of south-central London were not bought together in the one transaction. If they were bought in the one transaction, then we would be on much stronger ground to assert that they constituted a single 'journey'.

[I acknowledge that ushawk didn't tell us whether the 2 Advances were bought n the one transaction which was one good reason for not jumping to any opinion on that specific incident]

It wasnt an assumption made by me that it is 2 "separate" journeys, i always thought it counted as a whole one myself, but i was told it by 3 staff members (2 Southern, 1 East Coast). Turns out (thanks to Yorkie through PM) that i have been given totally the wrong information and i will be e-mailing both companies about this.

Advances were bought in different transactions - Eastbourne to Victoria on the Southern website, and Kings Cross to Doncaster on the East Coast website. I didnt go into to much detail as i didnt want to go off-topic, but i believed the info was right and i apologise for making a mistake :oops:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'd be interested to know when ushawk experienced the problems. The last leg would have been with Southern and I have personal experience of them not understanding the rules last December. It would be disappointing to find out that they haven't learned their lesson.

This would be the beginning of last month (March), this makes it a bit more frustrating as it only just has happened to me, and there must be loads more people who have been caught out as well.
 

MarkyMarkD

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It will be quite common for the individual Advance legs to be purchased separately, because of the different release dates applied by different TOCs. It might also be likely that the different legs will be purchased from different websites, particularly if - like East Coast - they give exclusive discounts on their own site.

I think that more relevant than the single transaction point, mentioned earlier, is the fact that it's a continuous journey for which all tickets were purchased in advance (rather than buying part-way through the journey).

That is where your journey falls down, because you had two Advances with a gap in the middle (presumably to be filled with an Oyster or cash-paid London Underground journey or bus ride). In previous threads of this nature, it has been stated that this sort of gap makes the claim of a single journey under NRCOC less likely to succeed, and it may be that factor which has led the rail staff you discussed the problem with, to advise you as they have.

The rock-solid advice in such cases is to ensure that the two tickets actually join up - by making one of them from origin to London Underground Zone 1, and the other from the second London Terminal to the final destination. I realise that it is not easy to get Advance tickets to London Underground Zone 1 - indeed it might be completely impossible - but you can do so for many other tickets.
 

MikeWh

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That is where your journey falls down, because you had two Advances with a gap in the middle (presumably to be filled with an Oyster or cash-paid London Underground journey or bus ride). In previous threads of this nature, it has been stated that this sort of gap makes the claim of a single journey under NRCOC less likely to succeed, and it may be that factor which has led the rail staff you discussed the problem with, to advise you as they have.

The rock-solid advice in such cases is to ensure that the two tickets actually join up - by making one of them from origin to London Underground Zone 1, and the other from the second London Terminal to the final destination. I realise that it is not easy to get Advance tickets to London Underground Zone 1 - indeed it might be completely impossible - but you can do so for many other tickets.

No. How you make the cross London part of the journey is up to you. Providing you have left the minimum connection time between the relevant mainline terminals then it is still one journey. There can even be a delay on the Underground as long as it wasn't the first part* of your journey and you should still be covered. And using Oyster isn't a problem either as long as you get the delay verified where the Oyster can be read. This was where my problem with Southern occured because I had used Oyster to get from Crayford to East Croydon and there was a problem on Southeastern. But the ticket office at East Croydon is capable of carrying out Oyster transactions so they could have seen that I arrived in time at Crayford.

* If you do want to start with an Underground or DLR service then get rail tickets from London U1 because then you're still covered.
 

yorkie

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Let me be clear: there is no ticketing "gap" when you combine tickets at Bradford Stations, Glasgow Cen/Qst, London Terminals, Hertford Stations, or any other such location!

Additionally, there is no requirement to use one booking site and book the journey in one transaction. However, it is certainly true that before the Advance Fares FAQs was produced, this is guidance that we'd particularly recommend in order to make the case more watertight.

If people wish to rely less on the Advance Fares FAQs and make their case more watertight by going beyond the minimum requirements, then that's absolutely fine, and it may well make a case easier to argue, but it in no way diminishes the rights of anyone meeting the requirements.

Advance tickets to/from "ZONE U1* LONDN" [0785] (or other zones as appropriate) are easy to obtain on WebTIS-powered sites, are not necessary for a journey to merely cross London, but highly recommended for a journey that starts with DLR/LU.

Southern staff have been caught out on numerous occasions, and we again need to bring the laughably over-rated Chris Burchell to account (who will, no doubt, get Liam Ludlow to make excuses denying reality while grudgingly giving a refund).
 

OwlMan

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Attached is the latest copy from the Manual (dated 24/1/2012) from "The MaNUAL"
 

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MarkyMarkD

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Thanks for clarifying the "Zone U1" part of the issue.

I'm still not 100% convinced where the two tickets have different London destinations/origins, e.g. Chatham-Victoria and Kings Cross-Peterborough, rather than specifying London Terminals. The examples in OwlMan's document don't cover this very well. They DO say that three tickets (Chatham-Victoria, single tube ticket, Kings Cross-Peterborough) ARE covered, but then they have weasel words about any ticket held on a smartcard (e.g. Oyster) requiring travel centre verification and annotation on the advance tickets.

If you are already late because of a delay, it is a real pain to (theoretically) have to queue at a travel centre simply to prove that you had paid on Oyster for a single tube journey between your two advance tickets.
 

yorkie

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Thanks for clarifying the "Zone U1" part of the issue.

I'm still not 100% convinced where the two tickets have different London destinations/origins, e.g. Chatham-Victoria and Kings Cross-Peterborough, rather than specifying London Terminals. The examples in OwlMan's document don't cover this very well. They DO say that three tickets (Chatham-Victoria, single tube ticket, Kings Cross-Peterborough) ARE covered
I think that settles it. :)
but then they have weasel words about any ticket held on a smartcard (e.g. Oyster) requiring travel centre verification and annotation on the advance tickets.

If you are already late because of a delay, it is a real pain to (theoretically) have to queue at a travel centre simply to prove that you had paid on Oyster for a single tube journey between your two advance tickets.
The points being made, I believe (and correctly) are:

  • That there is no "gap" (that is why examples of different termini are given); and
  • That the use of LU between termini does not mean customers ceased to be covered.
There is of course no need to check smart cards if the delay is down to the first paper ticket. This would only become an issue, if the train was late into the London Terminal, and the train departing from the next London Terminal was missed, due to a delay while using the smart card. The likelihood of this is minimised, due to generous cross-London transfer times (see NRT) and can be further minimised, if the customer wishes, by allowing additional connection time over and above the minimum required.
 

142094

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But still be prepared for the fact that if you are in a position where you have to claim it's all one journey then you may be sent back via a quicker route!

I'll certainly be trying to avoid missing the connection and going back via Manchester again ;)
 

blacknight

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Let me be clear: there is no ticketing "gap" when you combine tickets at Bradford Stations, Glasgow Cen/Qst, London Terminals, Hertford Stations, or any other such location!.

In theory there's no gap but in reality take Newark for example the gap is mile or so:lol:, what happens with situation for instance NOT-DUR route via ECML but gets lost walking between to stations at Newark? Journey as started but is railway or passenger at fault for missing booked service.
 
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MarkyMarkD

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If you arrive on time at the connecting point and get lost between stations, it's no different to you simply getting lost at the station and failing to board - i.e. it's your fault and you are not covered for onward travel at the TOC's expense.
 
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