• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Anyone know what this new building's for? (CET plant at Reading)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Stargazer99

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2014
Messages
20
Over the last few weeks a building has started appearing at the back of Cardiff Road, Reading - it appears to be on railway land and to be associated with the train depot (BTW - the depot overnight noise saga in Cardiff Road is still dragging on after 4 years and several of the residents have now given up and moved away).

Can anyone enlighten us as to the purpose of the building? Great Western and Network Rail haven't answered enquiries from residents and the council and even the owner of the car repair workshop overshadowed by the building can't find out anything about it. Pictures attached - any takers?

Many thanks!

building1.jpg

building2.jpg
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Stargazer99

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2014
Messages
20
We have indeed asked the council's planning department, and they apparently weren't aware of this new building. They tell us they have contacted Great Western and Network Rail but so far aren't getting any replies. As far as we know there hasn't been any kind of planning application or prior approval request. I thought it would be worth asking on the forum in case there are any insiders about that know what's going on there.
 

Clip

Established Member
Joined
28 Jun 2010
Messages
10,822
Is it anything to do with crossrail? The only thing I can think of really
 

WatcherZero

Established Member
Joined
25 Feb 2010
Messages
10,272
NR don't need planning permission if the structure is wholly within railway land and will be used for rail related purposes (commercial office space and retail don't count)
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,259
It's always possible that it was already shown in an earlier PDR application. There were a number of applications concerning all the depot area changes, perhaps something was down as "to be added later", eg as they gradually changed from mainly DMU servicing to mainly EMU...
 

Stargazer99

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2014
Messages
20
Yes, suspected that planning permission wouldn't be needed hence the council not knowing about this. Some residents can see the building from their houses so are understandably interested in what it is (and one or two are unhappy with it as it no doubt blocks out some of their light).

The building appears to be next to the road that runs between the two fences, on the side away from the railway. Any information from insiders appreciated :)
 

Howezy_21

Member
Joined
19 Aug 2017
Messages
22
If it is next to the depot lines but not actually connected to them in any way the only logical uses for that structure could either be some sort of office block/possibly a training centre. Or parts storage unless such place already exists within the maintenance facility. How close those ideas are to the truth will become apparent as more of the building work is complete.
 

coppercapped

Established Member
Joined
13 Sep 2015
Messages
3,093
Location
Reading
The building has obviously been planned for a long time, its footprint may be seen in this Google Maps view taken during the reconstruction phase of the Reading Station area a few years ago. It is beside the stabling sidings which serve the maintenance dépôt.

Is the noise issue to do with the Turbos idling while waiting in the sidings? If so some of the problem will go away when the electric services start in January next year as the Turbos will be replaced by the Class 387 electric units. As everybody knows, the electrification programme is running late so many of the Turbos should have long gone.
 

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,259
The retaining walls for this building (as can be seen in Google Satellite view mentioned above) are shown on the 2010 depot plans submitted to RBC but simply described as 'to be built as part of depot contract' with no purpose shown.
 
Last edited:

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
NR don't need planning permission if the structure is wholly within railway land and will be used for rail related purposes (commercial office space and retail don't count)

They may not require planning permission, but they do require "prior approval" for new or altered buildings or bridges. The planning authority can only refuse on grounds of location or appearance.

A.1 Development is not (Permitted Development) if it consists of or includes—
(a)the erection, construction, alteration or extension of any building, bridge, aqueduct, pier or dam; or
(b)the formation, laying out or alteration of a means of access to any highway used by vehicular traffic,
unless the prior approval of the appropriate authority to the detailed plans and specifications is first obtained.

A.2 The prior approval referred to in paragraph A.1 is not to be refused by the appropriate authority nor are conditions to be imposed unless they are satisfied that—
(a)the development (other than the provision of or works carried out to a dam) ought to be and could reasonably be carried out elsewhere on the land; or
(b)the design or external appearance of any building, bridge, aqueduct, pier or dam would injure the amenity of the neighbourhood and is reasonably capable of modification to avoid such injury.

The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015
 

rebmcr

Established Member
Joined
15 Nov 2011
Messages
3,845
Location
St Neots
They may not require planning permission, but they do require "prior approval" for new or altered buildings or bridges. The planning authority can only refuse on grounds of location or appearance.

Ah, so they can erect as many gantries and signal poles as they like, but buildings are still subject to some extrernal influence?
 

Stargazer99

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2014
Messages
20
Yes, the ongoing noise that affects nearby residents is the turbos idling in the early hours - they would be very happy if the electrics were already stabled there but as we all know this has taken much longer than planned. I understand that because several lines are no longer due for electrification (and some such as the Reading-Gatwick service weren't part of the plan anyway) there will be some turbos there for many years - let's hope they can be stabled further away than at present.

I saw the original plans, but as pointed out there is no information on the building. I would have expected the need for prior approval for this.
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
I saw the original plans, but as pointed out there is no information on the building. I would have expected the need for prior approval for this.

What does the 2010 decision letter say? If it has the usual phrase along the lines of "development shall conform to the submitted plans" and the building appears on the plans even in outline form, then Network Rail may claim to have prior approval. But its worth checking this with the planning department. I'm afraid from examples I know of locally (a new building and a car park) that some people in Network Rail don't appear to know the law or are willing to try it on.
 

Stargazer99

Member
Joined
19 Sep 2014
Messages
20
I've taken a look at the plans and decision notice and can't see anything referring to a building at that location on the embankment, and the council doesn't appear to have any knowledge of it, so I think they might well be trying it on.

In case anyone's interested in viewing the planning application in detail - it's at planning.reading.gov.uk and the application number is 10/01380/FUL. I'm also searching to see if there are any subsequent applications but haven't found any yet (without a postcode searching is difficult, but I don't think there are any). The only application I've found is from 2014 for a wheel lathe facility, which is attached to the Cow Lane depot buildings several hundred yards to the west.
 

eastdyke

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
1,923
Location
East Midlands
They may not require planning permission, but they do require "prior approval" for new or altered buildings or bridges. The planning authority can only refuse on grounds of location or appearance.
The Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) (England) Order 2015

Sadly (or not!) you are quoting from Part 18 which applies to 'Miscellaneous development'.
You should be quoting from Part 8 'Transport related development, Class A'.

Class A – railway or light railway undertakings
Permitted development
A. Development by railway undertakers on their operational land, required in connection with the movement of traffic by rail.

Development not permitted
A.1 Development is not permitted by Class A if it consists of or includes—
(a)the construction of a railway;
(b)the construction or erection of a hotel, railway station or bridge; or
(c)the construction or erection otherwise than wholly within a railway station of—
(i)an office, residential or educational building, or a building used for an industrial process, or
(ii)a car park, shop, restaurant, garage, petrol filling station or other building or structure provided under transport legislation.

Interpretation of Class A
A.2 For the purposes of Class A, references to the construction or erection of any building or structure include references to the reconstruction or alteration of a building or structure where its design or external appearance would be materially affected.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/8/made
 
Last edited:

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
Sadly (or not!) you are quoting from Part 18 which applies to 'Miscellaneous development'.
You should be quoting from Part 8 'Transport related development, Class A'.


http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2015/596/schedule/2/part/8/made

Sadly in this case (and most others) it is you that is not correct. While Part 8 applies specifically to railways, it is more restrictive than Part 18 which applies to developments originally sanctioned by Acts of Parliament, which is true of the vast majority for railways. In my experience Network Rail use the more lenient process offered to them under Part 18 and the opportunity to apply for prior approval only. Part 8 is only used if there has been no Act of Parliament enabling the railway.

In the case being discussed here, the application was an "Application for Prior Approval under Part 11 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) order 1995" which is equivalent to Part 18 of the 2015 Order in applying to developments originally authorised by Parliament (see here).
 
Last edited:

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
I've taken a look at the plans and decision notice and can't see anything referring to a building at that location on the embankment, and the council doesn't appear to have any knowledge of it, so I think they might well be trying it on.

In case anyone's interested in viewing the planning application in detail - it's at planning.reading.gov.uk and the application number is 10/01380/FUL. I'm also searching to see if there are any subsequent applications but haven't found any yet (without a postcode searching is difficult, but I don't think there are any). The only application I've found is from 2014 for a wheel lathe facility, which is attached to the Cow Lane depot buildings several hundred yards to the west.

I've had a quick look and the decision letter says that prior approval is granted in accordance with the plans submitted and then lists hundreds of them, the list is 3 pages long! If you cant find anything on the plans, I suggest you, or even better a local councillor or residents group submit a report of a potential Planning Breach (see https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200127/planning/103/having_your_say/5.). It really should be the council who know whether or not the building has been granted prior approval and to explain to you their reasons if they don't take action.
 

eastdyke

Established Member
Joined
25 Jan 2010
Messages
1,923
Location
East Midlands
Sadly in this case (and most others) it is you that is not correct.
....
In the case being discussed here, the application was an "Application for Prior Approval under Part 11 of the Town and Country Planning (General Permitted Development) order 1995" which is equivalent to Part 18 of the 2015 Order in applying to developments originally authorised by Parliament (see here).

:oops: Thank you for putting me right. And most others?
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
Yes sorry, my grammar gets worse with age, let me clarify - in most cases of Network Rail applying to planning authorities, it is for prior approval as defined under Part 18 (or the equivalent pre 2015).:s
 

DarloRich

Veteran Member
Joined
12 Oct 2010
Messages
29,179
Location
Fenny Stratford
Yes: part 18 is the normal route used. I have been in some interesting discussions about what is "permitted" development and what is not. When it is not seeking planning permission is always fun ;)
 

Filton Bank

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2017
Messages
81
Apparently its for additional CET extraction equipment. The foundation has been there for ages with ducts for the services sticking up out of the concrete floor, so I assume it was always part of the plan for the new depot. Construction on the steel framework began about 3 weeks ago I think.
 

HowardGWR

Established Member
Joined
30 Jan 2013
Messages
4,983
Apparently its for additional CET extraction equipment. The foundation has been there for ages with ducts for the services sticking up out of the concrete floor, so I assume it was always part of the plan for the new depot. Construction on the steel framework began about 3 weeks ago I think.
It seems churlish after such a helpful reply - but 'CET'? What is that please?
 

Filton Bank

Member
Joined
13 Aug 2017
Messages
81
It seems churlish after such a helpful reply - but 'CET'? What is that please?
Not at all, my fault for using an acronym (a rushed reply before heading out to work!). As skyhigh says, controlled emissions tank/toilet, so the new building is for detanking equipment for train toilets. It's a closed system so any smells are pretty minimal/unnoticeable.
 

lejog

Established Member
Joined
27 Feb 2015
Messages
1,321
Having had a quick look at the plans and Google Maps there are West and East CET buildings shown on the depot layout plan (large pdf) and this seems to be the east building. But two points the OP should check:

1) The building does seem to have been built in a different position from the submitted plan. The plan shows the East CET to be half way between Cow Lane and 139 Cardiff Rd, while the photo posted (and Google maps) suggests it is directly behind 139 Cardiff Rd. You appear to be correct that no building is shown on the plans at that position.
2) Also the building seems to have gained windows compared with the design submitted.

Especially since the building is now opposite a house (I assume the photo was taken from the bedroom?), if these are correct I definitely would discuss these with the planning department with regards to a potential breach. Unless Network Rail applied for a later change, it appears the development is not in accordance with the prior approval granted. Although I can't gauge the distance, having windows overlooking residential buildings from a greater height is certainly a planning consideration.
 
Last edited:

swt_passenger

Veteran Member
Joined
7 Apr 2010
Messages
31,259
Having had a quick look at the plans and Google Maps there are West and East CET buildings shown on the depot layout plan (large pdf) and this seems to be the east building.
On the plan you are referring to I think the East CET plant and the 'new building' referred to here are completely separate locations. The East CET is shown at 58960, I think the new building site is at 58700 where the embankment is built out on Google satellite view, next to the location 147-149 Cardiff Rd. (Hence my earlier post #10 above)

The builiding numbers at the Cow Lane end of Cardiff road seem to be around 191-193 etc, not the 139 shown on the planning drawing. There are various buildings at the proposed East CET site visible from Google Street View, even though the satellite view doesn't show them yet:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4...4!1shjFgCpTYwtVudJJjkeMiig!2e0!7i13312!8i6656
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top