Anytime Day Return "Not via London Terminals" ticket

[D365]

Haven't seen much discussion about this before, nor have I pulled up any results from a quick search. I've got a question about this ticket which I have not seen before.

Booked it on Great Northern for travel to Whitechapel for travel in a couple of days, which saved me at least £10 compared to a "full-fat" day return (with 16-25 railcard). What I'm wondering is, would this ticket allow me to travel through a "London Terminal" (e.g. through Kings Cross on the Victoria or Piccadilly), without alighting, or does it not permit me to travel through a London Terminal station at all?

Obviously in this instance I can connect with the East London Line through Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington, but I'd be interested to know for future travel whether the above would be allowed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It permits only routes which do not "touch" a London terminal, AIUI. So no, going through Kings Cross would not[1] be permitted.

[1] Unless the ticket is more expensive than one of the same ticket type permitting that, in which case it would be de-facto accepted, because the railway hates zero fare excesses.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I concur with Neil - "Not via London [Terminals]" essentially means just that, no travel via a London Terminal including passing through it.

Between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington, I assume the ticket would be valid on the Tube as well as GN trains (on the Northern City line)? Must admit I get a bit hazy about ticket interavailability in these parts.

 

[bb21]

Which fare are you talking about?

 

[PeterC]

It would have been helpful to have known where the OP was starting from.

I put Enfield Chase (as a random GN station) to Whitechapel into the TfL Single Fare Finder and that gave me an alternative "not via zone 1" fare so I assume that that is the intention with this ticket.

Oyster wouldn't allow you top travel via Shoreditch but I assume that the OP's ticket does although that may be more by accident than by design.

 

[Hadders]

A ticket routed 'not via London' cannot be used to travel via a London Terminal (Kings Cross, Liverpool Street etc.) You would be liable to pay an excess fare (note not a Penalty Fare) if travelling off route.

National Rail tickets with validity between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate are also valid on the Underground (but not to alight intermediately except at Highbury & Islington or Old Street. As a ticket routed 'not via London' cannot be valid between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate it cannot be valid on the Underground.

 

[yorkie]

...would this ticket allow me to travel through a "London Terminal" (e.g. through Kings Cross on the Victoria or Piccadilly), without alighting, or does it not permit me to travel through a London Terminal station at all?

The ticket should say something like "Route: Not via London" or "Not valid for travel via London" or similar; it is a route restriction.

You can change at Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington to reach Whitechapel.

There is some confusion over whether the route restriction bars entry into London Group (the routeing point group) or London Terminals (the group used as an origin/destination) however it makes absolutely no difference in the case of London Group/London Terminals. (it becomes an issue for Birmingham but that's another story...!!)

 

[Joe Paxton]

It would have been helpful to have known where the OP was starting from.

I put Enfield Chase (as a random GN station) to Whitechapel into the TfL Single Fare Finder and that gave me an alternative "not via zone 1" fare so I assume that that is the intention with this ticket.

Oyster wouldn't allow you top travel via Shoreditch but I assume that the OP's ticket does although that may be more by accident than by design.

Whilst Shoreditch High Street is in zone 1, it's not a London Terminal, so routing guide permitting there's no reason why a "Not via London" ticket isn't valid via Shoreditch on the ELL.

Indeed, whilst we don't know the OP's origin, it seems likely this routing is intentional for this fare - e.g. for a Foxton to Whitechapel 'not via London' journey. (I'm assuming a GN origin station as the OP booked on the GN website.)

 

[yorkie]

It would have been helpful to have known where the OP was starting from.

Agreed. But based on the information I know, somewhere on the GN route, I'd imagine.

I put Enfield Chase (as a random GN station) to Whitechapel into the TfL Single Fare Finder and that gave me an alternative "not via zone 1" fare so I assume that that is the intention with this ticket.

The TfL single fare finder is not applicable to a paper National Rail ticket.

Oyster wouldn't allow you top travel via Shoreditch but I assume that the OP's ticket does although that may be more by accident than by design.

We are talking at cross-purposes here. Oyster does allow travel via Shoreditch but we are talking about a non-zonal point-to-point paper ticket. The OP's ticket is not only valid via Shoreditch but it is only valid via Shoreditch!

 

[Joe Paxton]

...
National Rail tickets with validity between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate are also valid on the Underground (but not to alight intermediately except at Highbury & Islington or Old Street. As a ticket routed 'not via London' cannot be valid between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross/Moorgate it cannot be valid on the Underground.

Thanks. So only valid on a GN train between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington.

 

[greatkingrat]

It is valid on the Underground between Finsbury Park and Highbury. There are two separate entries in the interavailable routes list, one for Finsbury Park - Highbury and one for Finsbury Park - London Terminals.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=18694&d=1404760434

 

[Joe Paxton]

It is valid on the Underground between Finsbury Park and Highbury. There are two separate entries in the interavailable routes list, one for Finsbury Park - Highbury and one for Finsbury Park - London Terminals.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=18694&d=1404760434

Thanks greatkingrat - it seemed logical enough that it should also be valid on the Tube as well as the GN/NR line between these stations.

 

[bb21]

It would have been helpful to have known where the OP was starting from.

It would be quite important knowing which fare it is, most importantly, whether a cross-London marker is present.

It would save any pointless discussion.

No idea why there is so much secrecy surrounding a fare when people want help from others.

 

[PeterC]

The TfL single fare finder is not applicable to a paper National Rail ticket.

I know, it was simply used to illustrate a publicised alternative route rather than one simply inferred by the prohibition.

I thought that my intention was obvious but there is always somebody who will get the wrong end of the stick on the web, sometimes even accidentaly.

 

[yorkie]

True. I agree it is far better if details of the exact fare are posted, so that we can be in no doubt.

 

[D365]

Upon looking back at the fare options for travelling to London during peak hours (which is not something I do often) it appears I had two choices starting at Huntingdon and finishing at Whitechapel. These were an Anytime Day Return, which explicitly states Not via London Terminals, or an Anytime Day Return with Travelcard. Obviously I would have needed the latter if I had needed to take a non-stop service to King's Cross.

As it were, since I took the Victoria to Highbury & Islington on my outbound journey, that allowed me to make an earlier connection than I had planned, at the expense of it still being packed. It was the Northern City Line on the way back, positively old-school but whisked me straight to the mainline platforms at Finsbury Park. Perhaps this should belong in the Trip Reports subforum instead!

My original question was based on the curiosity of whether or not I would be allowed to change onto the Victoria or Piccadilly and pass through Kings Cross. Apologies for not stating the specific fares originally, I didn't read into the details too much when I made the purchase. My last few days have been extremely busy so I hadn't the time to write a more substantive post.

As an aside, I'm absolutely gutted that I missed the Formula One event taking place yesterday evening, I would have happily stayed in London for the day were it not for work commitments. Doesn't help that they only announced it the day before, either!

 

[Hadders]

Ordinarily if you wanted to travel via Kings Cross then an Anytime Day return to London Terminals and then using Oyster or Contactless on the Underground to Whitechapel would usually work out cheapest.

Youshouldbe able to purchase a Huntingdon to 'Zone U12 London' ticket which allow one journey on the Underground to any station in Zone 1 or 2 (Whitechapel is in Zone 2). Strangely fares to 'Zone U12 London' aren't available from Huntingdon (according to Avantix Traveller) yet are available from St Neots and Peterborough (the stations either side on the GN route).

This seems to be an oversight and hopefully someone from GTR will see this and correct it...

 

[bb21]

U-zone fares should be customisable in any combination (with some exceptions in certain areas but none to the north of King's Cross) so can be manually created at the ticket office (in theory) as they are simply add-ons.

That said, usual caveats about local instructions, TIS capability, and staff knowledge apply.