Anytime Short Distance Return

[DeeGee]

I've just bought one of these.

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=GMB&dest=YRK&tkt=SHR

Why is it different from a normal Anytime Return? The validity on the outward is just one day, isn't it?

Thing is, I'd have thought Grimsby to Meadowhall would be as much of a candidate for one of these one day instead of five day outward validity tickets, but it isn't. Is it a special case for York? Seems to be a bit of a halfway house between Day Return (which is what I really wanted), and Anytime Return. Anytime Day return exists in NSE-land.

 

[northwichcat]

Why is it different from a normal Anytime Return? The validity on the outward is just one day, isn't it?

For an Anytime Return the outward portion is usually valid for one journey which must be completed within 5 days.

 

[DeeGee]

So on a trip to Meadowhall, I can overnight at Habrough, Barnetby, Scunthorpe and Doncaster if I so choose, and on a trip to York I have to go straight there?

What demand is there for a 5 day outward to Meadowhall? Or is it available because there isn't a CDR to York?

 

[Starmill]

What demand is there for a 5 day outward to Meadowhall? Or is it available because there isn't a CDR to York?

Nope. It's because it's priced by Virgin Trains East Coast - although this is also the reason there is no CDR, because they like to rip you off by removing the ticket types that cost less.

TP do not currently use the Anytime Short Return. I don't know if anyone other than GR do. The conditions for an Anytime Return are standard across the whole industry.

 

[northwichcat]

So on a trip to Meadowhall, I can overnight at Habrough, Barnetby, Scunthorpe and Doncaster if I so choose, and on a trip to York I have to go straight there?

Only if you buy an non-existent Anytime Return opposed to the Anytime Short Distance Return. In your original post you seemed to imply you thought the two were the same.

 

[miami]

Only if you buy an non-existent Anytime Return opposed to the Anytime Short Distance Return. In your original post you seemed to imply you thought the two were the same.

Grimsby to Meadowhall Anytime Return for £29.20 any permitted exists and allows a 5 day BOJ.

So yes, Grimsby-Habrough-Barnetby-Scunthorpe-Doncaster-Meadowhall seems like a valid route, and can be used for break of journeys on multiple occasions.

I believe Anytime returns (or Standard open returns) used to be valid for 30 days on the outbound?

 

[sheff1]

I believe Anytime returns (or Standard open returns) used to be valid for 30 days on the outbound?

Used to be 3 months for both outward and return.

 

[yorkie]

I believe Anytime returns (or Standard open returns) used to be valid for 30 days on the outbound?

That changed at "simplification" in 2008.

What demand is there for a 5 day outward to Meadowhall? Or is it available because there isn't a CDR to York?

I don't understand the question, but are you suggesting Northern should follow VTEC and change their Anytime Return for the journey in question to an Anytime Short Distance Return?

In order to be consistent, each TOC has it's own pricing policy, within the overall framework. VTEC didn't like the validity of Anytime Returns for some of their journeys, so they have managed to get their own type of Anytime Return introduced. Whether or not any other TOC does the same remains to be seen, but I'm surprised to see passengers giving them ideas!

 

[cuccir]

Interesting - I noticed this description today for a Newcastle-Berwick fare on a TVM in Newcastle. How did they get away with creating this one then!?!? Do we imagine more TOCs will implement them!

 

[bb21]

I thought fares were meant to be "simplified" over time. Silly me.

Of course anyone requiring the 5-day validity on the outward portion would simply buy a ticket to Harrogate, at £47 as opposed to the £46.50 fare to York, and East Coast could do nothing to stop that.

I wonder which category this fare falls into on National Rail Enquiries. There appears to not be anything called Anytime Short Return on the Anytime page. Is it an Anytime Day fare, an Anytime Single, or an Anytime Return?

(In case anyone misses the point, this is a rhetorical question.)

 

[Starmill]

VTEC always see themselves as the hegemonic operator, even when they're not, so it's hardly surprising they're going around creating even more inconsistencies when they claim to be doing exactly the opposite to "aid customer understanding" - well done with that.

bb21: the ticket type is unreferenced in the latest Guide to Tickets too (although apparently it's OK for that to be full of lies anyway because it says there are basic fares between every station in the country) published just weeks ago. My opinion of is even more low given they've added the route field as "1DYOUT1MTHRTN" when there are separate Out and Return options to populate that field with. Cowboys.

 

[northwichcat]

Grimsby to Meadowhall Anytime Return for £29.20 any permitted exists and allows a 5 day BOJ.

The original post isn't written very well. It refers to an Anytime Short Return for Grimsby to York and then asking the question why is the same not available for Grimsby to Meadowhall. However, then implies the poster thinks the outward journey on an Anytime Return has to be completed the same day before going on to explain that the outward portion of an Anytime Return is valid for 5 days.

 

[DeeGee]

The original post isn't written very well. It refers to an Anytime Short Return for Grimsby to York and then asking the question why is the same not available for Grimsby to Meadowhall. However, then implies the poster thinks the outward journey on an Anytime Return has to be completed the same day before going on to explain that the outward portion of an Anytime Return is valid for 5 days.

Apologies for the confusion. I was wondering what the rationale was for the fare existing at all, as no similar fares seem to exist for any other attractive day-trip destination from Grimsby Town.

I was thinking out loud that it appears to be a doff of the cap to the fact that VTEC have decided to squeeze as much money as possible out of day-trippers by not offering a Day Return, but by making up a fare further restricting ticket validity.

I don't want FTPE to introduce such a fare to their flows, it just seems ridiculous to me that I can take five days to get to Meadowhall (where both Day and "Period" returns exist), but that to York, not only is there no "Day" fare, but the Anytime fare is totally made up.

Are these things not supposed to be defined and codified somewhere?

Where I grew up, the ONLY return tickets available for journeys this long are Day Returns. What happened to simplification?

 

[cuccir]

For those unfamiliar with the new ticket, I've attached a screen-shot of one on offer at Virgin East Coast's website. It's a regular Anytime return but the outward portion is only valid on the date on the ticket, rather than the usual five day period.

Note that the example chosen is a 'short distance' Alnmouth-Doncaster journey, costing £104.50, travelling just under 150 miles and taking around 2 hours

 

[Tetchytyke]

Is the "Anytime Short Return" not just a direct descendent of time restriction-free Saver Returns?

 

[northwichcat]

Is the "Anytime Short Return" not just a direct descendent of time restriction-free Saver Returns?

Aren't those just Off-Peak Returns without a restriction code?

 

[reb0118]

Is the "Anytime Short Return" not just a direct descendent of time restriction-free Saver Returns?

I like your thinking.

 

[bb21]

Aren't those just Off-Peak Returns without a restriction code?

All Off-Peak fares have a restriction code, just that some say "no restriction" or such like, or have a nominal restriction, or have break of journey restrictions.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Aren't those just Off-Peak Returns without a restriction code?

Not all of them, IIRC the SVR from Newcastle-Carlisle (for instance) became an Anytime Return.

I was mostly wondering out loud whether this was VTEC offering the old SVR in a different way, rather than anything more sinister?

 

[Starmill]

Aren't those just Off-Peak Returns without a restriction code?

East Coast don't like these, so they have been adding restrictions to historicallly unrestricted tickets for years.

 

[LexyBoy]

I wonder which category this fare falls into on National Rail Enquiries. There appears to not be anything called Anytime Short Return on the Anytime page. Is it an Anytime Day fare, an Anytime Single, or an Anytime Return?

This page covers the ticket and in no way looks like it's been awkwardly shoved in by VTEC. The justification is interesting:

This ticket type is initially being trialled on journeys between the Doncaster and Leeds areas and will be effective from 1st June 2015 until 31st December 2015. It's (sic) addition to the existing ticket range aims to give customers increased choice by offering a period Anytime return for use in the peak on short distance flows where traditionally only a Day ticket was available. This then provides both period options for Peak and Off Peak Travel.

Erm, wasn't there "traditionally" only a period return on this flow?

Presumably the rationale is to stop SORs being used as a season - but in this case why not just change to a SDR? It's not as if it's a regulated fare, and the single is a SDR. All that naughty passengers need do is buy a SHR in each direction, just like anywhere else in the country. You get a full month out of the return anyway! (Or buy to Harrogate if they're smart).

What is it with Virgin's obsession with re-complicating tickets? On the WCML they brought in Off Peak tickets which can't be bought unless you buy another ticket too, and in a stroke of genius Super Off Peak tickets - a walk-up ticket type - which must be booked in advance and are booked train only (but only in one direction to add further confusion). I'd not be surprised if Virgin were behind adding restriction codes to Anytime tickets on the SailRail routes either. Yet VTWC seem strangely reluctant to introduce shoulder-peak fares like, all the other IC TOCs have.

 

[northwichcat]

East Coast don't like these, so they have been adding restrictions to historicallly unrestricted tickets for years.

TPE have done the same.

 

[DeeGee]

Erm, wasn't there "traditionally" only a period return on this flow?

I've never seen any kind of day return to York from Grimsby Town. The first train I can get off-peak doesn't arrive until almost lunchtime, so I can't get a very full day without having to get an Anytime return.

 

[yorkie]

I've never seen any kind of day return to York from Grimsby Town. The first train I can get off-peak doesn't arrive until almost lunchtime, so I can't get a very full day without having to get an Anytime return.

Never buy an Anytime Return from York to Grimsby. It's cheaper to "split" at Doncaster. Yes, even though Doncaster-York is massively overpriced, it's still cheaper!

 

[Eboordna]

TPE have done the same.

Example(s)?

The only reason VTEC have done this is to stop tickets being reused on multiple days. I would expect other TOCs to follow before too long - it's a big problem.

 

[northwichcat]

Example(s)?

10 years ago this ticket: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KNF&dest=HUD&tkt=SVR was under £11 and had no morning peak restriction. While it says not valid before 07:45 the earliest North TPE service you can board using it is the 09:26 Manchester to York by the time a connection is required and you can't use it on the 07:42 to Manchester.

Or for a more common flow this ticket: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LIV&dest=MAN&grpo=0435&grpd=0438&tkt=SVR now isn't valid before 08:44 which didn't use to be the case.

 

[miami]

10 years ago this ticket: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=KNF&dest=HUD&tkt=SVR was under £11 and had no morning peak restriction. While it says not valid before 07:45 the earliest North TPE service you can board using it is the 09:26 Manchester to York by the time a connection is required and you can't use it on the 07:42 to Manchester.

Or for a more common flow this ticket: http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=LIV&dest=MAN&grpo=0435&grpd=0438&tkt=SVR now isn't valid before 08:44 which didn't use to be the case.

Yet a mobberly York ticket is valid on the train!

 

[bb21]

Savers were completely unrestricted timewise outside the immediate areas surrounding London prior to "simplification". Adding restrictions in is not something only limited to a few TOCs. Very few can claim that they were not guilty on that front.

Is this tacit admission that "simplification" was a load of codswallop in respect of walk-on fares?

 

[northwichcat]

Is this tacit admission that "simplification" was a load of codswallop in respect of walk-on fares?

I think so.

It doesn't seem all that long ago that from local station if you didn't buy a ticket for travel to or through London single and return tickets either had no morning peak restriction or the restriction ended at 09:30. Now there's all sorts of morning peak restrictions and some tickets have afternoon ones as well.

 

[Starmill]

The only reason VTEC have done this is to stop tickets being reused on multiple days. I would expect other TOCs to follow before too long - it's a big problem.

"big" problem only as you claim it - and one that isn't solved by this addition of further complexity to the fares range.